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Avena
October 16th, 2001, 06:14 AM
Hi there!

Does anybody know anything about the druid/druidic (in lack of better word) alphabet "Ogam/Ogham"?

Myst
October 16th, 2001, 06:15 AM
Not personally but it is one of Ann Moura's favourite subjects in Green Witchcraft - which is my favourite Pagan book series :)

Avena
October 16th, 2001, 06:19 AM
Never heard of the book, but thanks for the tip!

Swanspirit
October 16th, 2001, 01:06 PM
I have loved Ogham for a long time........
but had the chance to do a great deal of in depth research when I was writing a small article on Celtic Astrology for Noise Magazine......for J.C.Penney which was published in the fall of 2000........ The article turned out to be a small astrology column but the research has been really valuable...... here is
EVERYTHING OGHAM ON THE WEB
http://www.evertype.com/standards/og/ogmharc.html
ENJOY.....
also here is the The Voice of the Woods
An Ogham Divination System
http://www.pixelations.com/ogham/index2.html


Love and Light
Swannie

Mairwen
October 16th, 2001, 01:14 PM
First of all, Ogham isn't Druidic, it's Irish ... (please see my further ranting and raving bout Celtic/Druidic/Irish in the Gods and Goddesses forum) ....

As far as the Ogham goes, you can find information here:

http://auto.search.msn.com/results.asp?cfg=SMCINITIAL&srch=5&FORM=AS5&RS=CHECKED&v=1&q=ogham

It's a search result window, but it's full of information.

Avena
October 17th, 2001, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Mairwen
First of all, Ogham isn't Druidic, it's Irish ... (please see my further ranting and raving bout Celtic/Druidic/Irish in the Gods and Goddesses forum) ....



It's definitely not Druidic? Damn! Wrong forum I guess :ugh: ... But I always thought (correct me if I'm wrong, will ya?) Druids were the one intellectual celtic people (Irish or not Irish for that matter) being the only one working with early writing systems like the Ogham...

Thank you for the links anyway! There are some great sources I haven't seen before :)

Mairwen
October 17th, 2001, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Avena
It's definitely not Druidic? Damn! Wrong forum I guess :ugh: ... But I always thought (correct me if I'm wrong, will ya?) Druids were the one intellectual celtic people (Irish or not Irish for that matter) being the only one working with early writing systems like the Ogham...

Thank you for the links anyway! There are some great sources I haven't seen before :)

Um. No. The indigenous people where what came to be called Ireland already were using the Ogham long, long before the Celts ever arrived.

Swanspirit
October 17th, 2001, 12:26 PM
From an online article /........
Although the origins of the Ogham alphabet are disputed, it is clear that the
graphically innovative system has its roots in already existing alphabets, probably the runes and/or the
Etruscan and Latin alphabet. Many writing systems have letters with new forms, but this does not
mean that the idea of writing alphabetically has been re-invented in those cases. Han-kul for example
has on a formal level little in common with alphabetic scripts in use in the vicinity of Korea,
however, the creator(s) of the alphabet were certainly aware of Indic alphabets such as the
Mongolian 'Phags pa (DB 225). The script may be formally closer to Chinese, but its structure is
clearly alphabetic, and the fact that each consonant is accompanied by a vowel letter below has a
close parallel in Indic scripts where consonant and vowel letters merge into quasi-units.

The similarities between Ogham and runes are in any case remarkable. Both systems are based on
phonological and phonetic knowledge: in the case of Ogham, the vowels are in one row, dental /d, t/
and velar /k, k_w/ stops are all placed next to each other as well as fricatives /f, s/ and velar sounds
/g, N/. It is also interesting to note that all Ogham letters, including the odd [st]-symbol (sometimes
transcribed as <z>, DB 341), have Anglo Saxon runic counterparts. Of course, it is necessary to
examine whether these letters are due to phonetics and/or phonology or rather to the model given by
another alphabet (runic or Latin). Also, it is not clear how this symbol was actually pronounced.

At the same time, the creativity of the creators of Ogham as well as other alphabets should not be
underestimated: the vowel order is probably based on the distinction front/back: back vowels /a, o,
u/ [A, o, u] are followed by front vowels /e, i/. The shape of the letters is certainly also rather original,
as in the case of the Korean Han-kul or in the case of some runic characters.

Crystal (205) states that Ogham letters symbolized either Gaelic or Pictish phonemes. The alphabet
was probably created around the 4th century BC. It can be found on rocks, stones and pottery in
Wales and Ireland. According to Babaev, Old Irish ogam is not a Celtic word. Although Pictish is
probably a non-Indo-European language, Celtophiles argue that due to the fact that there is no /p/
letter in Ogham Pictish itself must be a Celtic language. Babaev assumes that there was probably
some Celtic influence on Pictish.

Daniels, Peter T. and William Bright. 1996. The world's writing systems. NY and Oxford: OUP
1996. (=DB)

Babaev, Cyril. "Picts and Pictish Language". http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/asearch.html
[28.2.01] Babaev, Cyril. "Ogham Script" http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/asearch.html
[28.2.01]
Love and Light
Swannie

Avena
October 18th, 2001, 06:57 AM
Thank you again!

Interesting text. Difficult to read but very informative!

thefluiddruid
October 23rd, 2001, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Mairwen
First of all, Ogham isn't Druidic, it's Irish ...
Actually while not used by all Celts, it was used by peoples other than just the Irish.
I was also used by the Scots, and the Welsh.

Another mis conception is that all the people we now call the Celts were the Indo-Europian group.
Actually there were the Goidelic speaking Celts, who were the origanal inhabatants of the Isles (such as the ones that Ceaser called the Picts), and then there were the Brythonic speaking Celts who migrated over much of Europe before reaching the Isles. (Welsh mythology, such as the Mabinogi refer to them as the "new tribes" or "new people".)

They were somewhat differant culturally, especially considering that the Goidelics were Matriarchal while the Brithonic Celts were Patriarchal.