Blodeuwedd

[Aikaterine]

I've actually really enjoyed reseaching Blodeuwedd, so if you do have any more info that i've missed please add it

Blodeuwedd

Also known as Blodwin, Blancheflor, Blodewedd, Blodeuedd, Bloddueuth and Seen as the Ninefold Goddess.

Her name, translating as Flower maiden, was seen within the welsh celts to of been the most Beautiful of Goddesses. She was the Goddess of flowers and springtime as her name suggests but also of the Lunar mysteries and a goddess of wisdom. Blodeuwedd was seen as the owl and the moon, which will come to light later in this article, Her symbol is a hoop of spring flowers.

She was said to of been made of the most beautiful flowers, Meadowsweet, Broom and Oak by the magicians Math and Gwydion to be the Wife of Lleu Llaw Gyffes (the son of Arianrhod) who was un-able to marry a human bride. But alas there Beltane betrothal is doomed.
Lleu and Blodeuwedd were living in Mur Castell, the uplands of Ardudwy, the land that Math had given them as a wedding gift.

Her story comes as part of the Forth Branch of the Mabinogion.

The tale was to start with Lleu leaving for the day to go visit Math at Caer Dathyl, leaving his bride at home with Tomen y Mur. They’re neighbour Gronw Bebyr (also Goronwy, Gronw was the lord of Penllyn) was out hunting when he caught up with Blodeuwedd to woo and find the secret of Lleus death. Only to find out that Lleu cannot be killed in water or on dry land, day or night, indoors or outdoors, riding nor walking, clothed and naked, and by any weapon lawfully made (weapon forged during the hours when forging weapons was forbidden was needed.) but by a combination of standing with one foot in a bath of water and the other foot on a goat for example or at , would.

With the woo-ing of Blodeuwedd though, she falls in love with Gronw and aids him in Tricking Lleu.

Blodeuwedd asks Lleu on his return to show his death as he does Gronw throws a spear, made in a year and a day, and Lleu dies.
Magicians transformed him into an eagle, disappearing. Later his uncle Gwydion who finds Lleu's favourite sow below the tree eating his rotting flesh changes Lleu back into a Lord and begins to heal him. Lleu returns to Tome y Mur to seek his pay back. And so Lleu challenges Gronw and allows the Gronw to hide behind a stone. But Lleu's spear pierces threw the stone and kills Gronw on the banks of the Cynfal River.

With all of the happening and coming to a end his Uncle Gwydion Turned Blodeuwedd into a Owl, cursed to only fly at night.

The stone where the spear broke threw remains with the hole today.

Although Blodeuwedd was portrayed as a treacherous goddess within the welsh myth, People have now returned back to her as the spirit of vegetaion, spring and growth.

[John_Mischief]

Although Blodeuwedd was portrayed as a treacherous goddess within the welsh myth, People have now returned back to her as the spirit of vegetaion, spring and growth.

I'm slightly confused. For her to return to being a spirit of vegetation, ect., she would have to have been one in the first place. AFAIK, the only stuff we know about her comes from the Mabinogian (Welsh Myth), and she doesn't really seem much like a spirit of vegetation and growth there, besides the fact that she's made of flowers.

The fact that she is somewhat treacherous makes sense in Celtic myth, because in all the different Celtic cultures, there seems to be a theme of "things are not what they seem" and beauty vs ugliness. In the Irish story about Niall of the Nine Hostages, he and his brothers come upon a well and must kiss the old hag gaurding it if they want a drink. All of them refuse - except Niall. He kisses her and she becomes a beautiful woman, and tells him someday he will be king.

The fact that Blodeuwedd is very beautiful but not really nice is another form of the same sort of deception that comes from looks and is rampant throught the myths.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter, however. If you're interested in her and haven't already, I'd suggest actually reading the Mabinogian - even if you already know the story.

[Aikaterine]

I'm slightly confused. For her to return to being a spirit of vegetation, ect., she would have to have been one in the first place. AFAIK, the only stuff we know about her comes from the Mabinogian (Welsh Myth), and she doesn't really seem much like a spirit of vegetation and growth there, besides the fact that she's made of flowers.


I can explain this just thinking about it, she was made from flowers, branches and herbs the essence of vegetation. Again, as i have said this in another thread, you are never going to find hard proof evidence of this, if thats what your suggesting upon any of the Gods of Goddesses, Many deities started as Heros and Wisefolk within communitys and another vast amount of deities have been forgotten or still go un-named. the fact that she was made of flowers doesn't make her any less of a being or less believed in by some. People perceptions change and some just revert back the point is Deities are seen as differently by many cultures and people.

Just my reply to your thoughts ;)

[John_Mischief]

I can explain this just thinking about it, she was made from flowers, branches and herbs the essence of vegetation. Again, as i have said this in another thread, you are never going to find hard proof evidence of this, if thats what your suggesting upon any of the Gods of Goddesses, Many deities started as Heros and Wisefolk within communitys and another vast amount of deities have been forgotten or still go un-named. the fact that she was made of flowers doesn't make her any less of a being or less believed in by some. People perceptions change and some just revert back the point is Deities are seen as differently by many cultures and people.

Just my reply to your thoughts ;)

You can have you own views on any of the Gods, but the point is that you shouldn't say "She is returning to being revered as a vegetation goddess" or something like that if she never was or we don't have any evidence that she was...which we don't. That's lying, and on behalf of people who can't defend themselves because they're dead.

I was just telling you something of the kind of culture and context Blodeuwedd was originally conceived of and worshipped in. I realize that people will attach their own meanings to ancient gods and ignore what we know of their past - and though I don't like it, I accept it. You asked for more information, and I offered it.

[Aikaterine]

I understand it was more information thats why i just answered from my view, it wasn't a attack in any such way. But the piece about vegetation was a researched answer coming from numerious books and sites when i decided to Reseach into Blodeuwedd which happens to be part of native history (most of the sites was British i will dig up every site and write all the titles down of books that i used). I wouldn't of written it if it didn't concure with anything else.

[ancestral_lee]

Hanes Blodeuwedd

not of father nor of mother
was my blood, was my body.
i was spellbound by gwydion
prime enchanter of the britons.
when he formed me from nine blossoms
nine buds of various kind:
from primrose of the mountain
broom,meadow-sweet and cockle
together intertwined.
from the bean in its shade bearing
a white spectral army
of earth, of earthly kind,
from the blossoms of the nettle,
oak, ash and bashful chestnut -
nine powers in me combined
nice buds of plant and tree.
long and white are my fingers
as the ninth wave of the sea.


thats the poem that can be pulled out of the cad Goddeu and regards blodeuwedd quite clearly. other than that and her mention in the mabinogion, i dont think there is any other mention of her in welsh mythology, i would check the Triads but no longer have the book (will have to get hold of it again).

i dont think i agree with the original posters opinions of her as a vegetation goddess at all. i mean there doesnt seem to be a precedent for it anywhere other than the fact she is made from flowers and blossoms. we have no idea t all how she was viewed by the ancestors and no way of knowing how - if at all - she was worshipped. she may simply be a character in the stories rather than a goddess. not every character is a god or goddess and we need to accept that she may be one of those.


could you perhaps cite your sources of info ?

[Ron]

LOL Blodeuwedd a "vegetation" goddess?? llol.

I'm sorry. Blodeuwedd is a crow now... and where does it say in the Mabinogi that she is a goddess? I was just wondering.

[ancestral_lee]

LOL Blodeuwedd a "vegetation" goddess?? llol.

I'm sorry. Blodeuwedd is a crow now... and where does it say in the Mabinogi that she is a goddess? I was just wondering.

crow? where did you get that from?

none of the characters mentioned in the mabinoion are referred to as deities, that said, some of them are and some of them arent, those who arent are still gods and goddesses though in a sense - though we need to keep working on that.

[Ron]

none of the characters mentioned in the mabinoion are referred to as deities, that said, some of them are and some of them arent, those who arent are still gods and goddesses though in a sense - though we need to keep working on that.

Consider that none of them are gods or goddesses. Have you compared Ceridwen and the triple-headed Morigan? Continue comparing within the legends and you'll come up with a long list of archetypes.

It is more plausible, in my mind, that those archetypes are the stories of heros old, and that we lack written evidence of Welsh "gods". Because of the strong believe in fairies, in Wales, it is also plausible, in my mind, that the tales are recounts of oral fairy tales: Not Biblical messages.

But that's just me. :scream:

[John_Mischief]

It is more plausible, in my mind, that those archetypes are the stories of heros old, and that we lack written evidence of Welsh "gods". Because of the strong believe in fairies, in Wales, it is also plausible, in my mind, that the tales are recounts of oral fairy tales: Not Biblical messages.

But that's just me. :scream:

I know less about Wales than I do about Ireland, but in Ireland at least the gods were a kind of fairies, or sidhe. It could be the same way in Welsh myth, could it not? The "fairy" tales are 'divine' I guess you could say.

[Ron]

I know less about Wales than I do about Ireland, but in Ireland at least the gods were a kind of fairies, or sidhe. It could be the same way in Welsh myth, could it not? The "fairy" tales are 'divine' I guess you could say.
Perhaps, but they have a constant reference to "the Lord", which some will write off as a side effect of Chr-stianity.

When this "Lord" is regarded as much greater than all of these little heros, it becomes difficult to mistake these litteuns as "gods", no? :fpeace:

[John_Mischief]

Perhaps, but they have a constant reference to "the Lord", which some will write off as a side effect of Chr-stianity.

When this "Lord" is regarded as much greater than all of these little heros, it becomes difficult to mistake these litteuns as "gods", no? :fpeace:

I know what you mean by the constant references to "the lord" haha...it seems like every other line of the Mabinogian is "between God and me...".

In a lot of cases though, characters are specifically denoted as coming from the otherworld. Arawn has white hounds with red ears, and Rhiannon has a magic (apparently) horse, and...those are the ones I'm remembering right now, hah.

[Nemesis Descending]

She was said to of been made of the most beautiful flowers, Meadowsweet, Broom and Oak by the magicians Math and Gwydion

You're saying that Blodeuwedd is a goddess and that Math and Gwydion created her. Um...isn't the idea of a deity one of being of divine origin/creation? Is it your thinking that a magician can create a goddess?

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending

[Aikaterine]

I'm sorry. Blodeuwedd is a crow now

Don't you mean a owl? cursed to fly only by night?

Um...isn't the idea of a deity one of being of divine origin/creation?

It would depend on your your idea of a deity, and myths and Deities all have to start somewhere. Could it not be the Deeds and creations that just lends a hand? I've posted below a quote from the forth branch of Mabinogi

Math The Son Of Mathonwy, The Forth branch of the Mabinogi

Translated By Lady Charlotte Guest ( no copyright is held upon here Translations)

They went thereupon unto Math the son Mathonwy, and complained unto him most bitterly of Arianrod. Gwydion showed him also how he had procured arms for the youth. "Well," said Math, "we will seek, I and thou, by charms and illusion, to form a wife for him out of flowers. He has now come to man's stature, and he is the comeliest youth that was ever beheld." So they took the blossoms of the oak, and the blossoms of the broom, and the blossoms of the meadowsweet, and produced from them a maiden, the fairest and most graceful that man ever saw. And they baptized her, and gave her the name of Blodeuwedd.


so no not my thought, part of the myth, shall post the link to site if anyone wants it. And again with the veg, Thats not my opinion, i just explained of the top of my head why she might be, in the second post, It was written as part of a article....of which my opinion is no where in the first post. :)

[teishabee]

Most celtic texts are christainised as they were written down centuries after the intial stories by monks.

[Aikaterine]

Most celtic texts are christainised as they were written down centuries after the intial stories by monks.
Oh so true as very little is known of celts before christainity came into play, explaining why "Lord" and "God" is refered to in the way it is.

[KEishin]

I work a lot with Welsh deities, and Blodeuwedd in particular. She is not a vegetation goddess in the way the Green Man is - she is the LAND. As such she requires the king (Lleu) to give himself for his people. She was made from flowers sure, but that has nothing to do with here being vegetative.

More than anything else, Blodeuwedd asks us "who are you? Not who others make you out to be, but your true self." She was created to serve a purpose, whether she wished it or not, and her role was to be the latar upon the which the king must sacrificed ('made sacred') in order to transform himself. she is another form of the Goddess of Death and Life - as such she appeared to me as the White Lady the first time we met.

She is an owl, not a crow, raven or other bird.

Anything else you want to know?

[-Ember]

I love that tale... I used to have a reworking of it posted in the novella section here.

What I find the most facinating is the interplay of polarities and paradoxes.

Look up when the flowers from which Blodeuwedd was formed bloom....

And the eagle/owl symbolism tends to recreate the sun/moon myths, one pursuing the other but never/breifly able to met...

The whole list of requirements for Llew's death fit well with the folklore themes... killed with a spear made in a time that is not (ritual time/durring mass) neither on water or dry land, ridding nor afoot, clothed not unclothed, etc....

And there is the whole maiden and light lord/dark lord theme...

A few hints that suggest some versions of Liliath's tale.

And, of course, the three concepts of womanhood shown in the story. Arianrhod who retains independence but only by seperation from others. G.... can't recall her name, the footholder... who has a place but only through submission. And Blodeuwedd, who tries for both... or tries to defy both.

I could go on for hours... Gods or not, a wonderfully complex tale... or at least ones from which complexities can be formed.

[Aikaterine]

Thankyou for expanding it KEishin from a more personal view, i have to admit i meet few people who work with the British Deities and fewer with a understanding of the Welsh Deities :)

[KEishin]

Thanks!

What else is neat too, from an astrological pov:

Leo = Lleu (the lion, Sun)
Virgo = Blodeuwedd (The Virgin)
Libra = The Scales, Lleu's form of death (the balance between night and day, etc)
Scorpio = Lleu's new form (Ancient people saw Scorpio as an eagle, not a scorpion)

So Blodeuwedd (The Virgin) was the necessary instrument to move from one season to another (Libra, time of the autumn equinox). I thought that was a fascinating concordance myself . . .

[Aikaterine]

would you mind if i used that as long as i put you as the original authour and copyrighted to you on Plymouth Pagans? Just to expand further on the original post, if not no worries but i would of never of looked for a astro link of any kind.

here some links you might like

Lyrics (http://www.paganmusic.co.uk/Blodlyrics.htm)
- Lyrics about Blodeuwedd

Mabinogion Tales (http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/mabinogion/)
- Tales and legends translated, a lovely site.

Mabinogion Introduction (http://www.mabinogion.info/)
-offers a Introduction into the four branches of the Mabinogion

[KEishin]

Actually the premise comes from Mike Nichols and an article he wrote back in the days of BBS systems.

It's called 'The Death of Llew'
*searches madly for the link*

Ah - http://wiccanhistorian.home.att.net/bos/deathofllew.html is one location. Google it and you'll likely find many more

[Ron]

Most celtic texts are christainised as they were written down centuries after the intial stories by monks.
Yes, that's one excuse for the references, as I stated earlier. :reading:

[Ron]

Oh so true as very little is known of celts before christainity came into play, explaining why "Lord" and "God" is refered to in the way it is.

So according to Aikaterine, "Lord" and "G-d" are "refered" to in the way "it" "is" because "very little is known of celts before Chr-stainity came into play".

Pardon me, but that does not make sense in my petty mind. :whatmewor

[Nemesis Descending]

so no not my thought, part of the myth, shall post the link to site if anyone wants it. And again with the veg, Thats not my opinion, i just explained of the top of my head why she might be, in the second post, It was written as part of a article....of which my opinion is no where in the first post. :)

Well, I see the reference to Math and Gwydion creating her, but nothing stated or suggesting that she is a goddess. Perhaps you're stretching the text too far?

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending

[ancestral_lee]

ok. i have some time before i hit the sack so will do a longer post.

my understanding is that the vast majority of welsh 'gods' arent gods at all. we only know of a few actual deities and those tend to be from the continental celts as a result of roman contact - they are taranis, Epone, Dis and another one whose name escapes me.

in th welsh myths, probably only Rhiannon and Arawn can confidently be called proper 'gods' as there is definately something otherworldly about them. so these two ay well represent the local names for those gaulish 'pan-celtic' god figures.

none of the people in the Mabinogion andassociated texts are referred to as gods or goddesses - though god is mentioned as lord or somethig but thats a later christainised addition - and they arent all that particulary godly either, they seem more like superhumans or merely humans with interesting abilities.

what is a possibility is that they are local tribal ancestral 'gods'. the mightly dead if you like. they are a representationof the continuation of ancestor worship which predated theistic religion. thats certainly my take on it and it works.

for instance, cerridwen may well have been a tribal sorceress, and after her death was worshipped as such by her tribe, she was called upon and honoured and 'grew' into a goddess like figure - i see no problem i that, it occurs in many other world religions, with something like Voudon being a perfect example.

if anything i find the idea of the ancestors staying with us as familar figures to guide and watch over us far more comforting than some great divine charater who has little 'blood' link.

so, back to Blodeuwedd. well, she probably wasnt a goddess at all in the classical and modern use of the word. she was a figure from our ancestors time, perhaps if we want to keep us close we need to 'recreate' her for our times in a way that works for us in the 21st century but with a strong sympathy for her own time - i cant see her minding that too much, we just have to be careful and respectful in what labels we start pinning to her.

one last thing - i really dont go for all this astrology type thing related to the welsh gods especially - it doesnt seem to have any relevance to them and what they were/are. it all seems like a lot of retrospective dumping - its all to easy to start shoehorning the old gods into strange little boxes that we think they symbolise - maybe they dont want to be a symbol of the transition of libra but want instead to be a living spirit from the past that is playing a very active role in our lives now?

lee

[Aikaterine]

So according to Aikaterine, "Lord" and "G-d" are "refered" to in the way "it" "is" because "very little is known of celts before Chr-stainity came into play".

Pardon me, but that does not make sense in my petty mind.

*rolls eyes*

No it doesn't now you chopped my post and re-muddled it.

It was a reply to teishabee with the quote of

Most celtic texts are christainised as they were written down centuries after the intial stories by monks.

and stating that yes it would explain the terms of Lord and God being used. I shall put, in my opinion next time to save confusing....

Blodeuwedd is refered to as a goddess in quite a few texts over the internet (seach for "Welsh gods and Goddesses" or "Celtic gods and Goddesses") and in a number of books. Of course not everyone would agree with this, and also intitled to they're opinions. But like stated by ancestral_lee

for instance, cerridwen may well have been a tribal sorceress, and after her death was worshipped as such by her tribe, she was called upon and honoured and 'grew' into a goddess like figure - i see no problem i that, it occurs in many other world religions, with something like Voudon being a perfect example.
.

Everything starts somewhere, like i have stated before (as my opinion) They could of started out as heros, wise folk, or the plain average joe.

If i had known the amount of bother of posting a article here i wouldn't off *huffs and puffs*

[ancestral_lee]

Blodeuwedd is refered to as a goddess in quite a few texts over the internet (seach for "Welsh gods and Goddesses" or "Celtic gods and Goddesses") and in a number of books

i wouldnt trust internet sites - after all, any old moron wityh computer accessca n post 'facts' online. the best source will be founf in the aacademic section of the library or book shop rather than the ramblings of a llewelyn author




If i had known the amount of bother of posting a article here i wouldn't off *huffs and puffs*

its called debate - good on you for starting a good one. its boring when everone agrees with each other like some fawning sycophants. its nice to have a good argument - keep it up

[KEishin]

I agree. Debate is healthy.

Blodeuwedd may be a Goddess or an ancestral spririt, but the semantics don't matter to me. What matters is that she is Out There where that may be and has that connection with both the ancestral group mind, archtypes and the Source (whatever you may call or think of it).

She's laughing in the back of my head right now as I type a response to this post. She also says "What does it matter what you call me? I am who I am and who you need me to be. Goddess or human, spirit or animal, it all comes down to the fact that I am a guide . . . one of many."

[Aikaterine]

its called debate - good on you for starting a good one. its boring when everone agrees with each other like some fawning sycophants. its nice to have a good argument - keep it up

My first American site plus a heavy night shift! :P So just finding grounding if that makes sense!
And cheers........i think :P

[KissMeImIrish!]

She also says "What does it matter what you call me? I am who I am and who you need me to be. Goddess or human, spirit or animal, it all comes down to the fact that I am a guide . . . one of many."
Very well said, I agree debate is healthy, but I find that sometimes the technicalities can get in the way of the spiritual side of things. Religion is a myriad of things to many different people, and that goes for the Gods and their lessons too. _wiz_

[Ron]

the best source will be founf in the aacademic section of the library or book shop rather than the ramblings of a llewelyn author
*kisses toes* Thank you ever so much for making a distinction between Llewelyn-horse-shit and books.


:artist:

[teishabee]

*kisses toes* Thank you ever so much for making a distinction between Llewelyn-horse-shit and books.


:artist:
If it not for Llewelyn I dont think we would have as much information availiable to us. Ok so some of the stuff is fluff but some descent authors are published through them also and I dont think slamming them is proving anything.

[ancestral_lee]

If it not for Llewelyn I dont think we would have as much information availiable to us. Ok so some of the stuff is fluff but some descent authors are published through them also and I dont think slamming them is proving anything.

there are a lot of good publishing houses out there that produce nothing but good work - capall bann, mandrake publishing and ignotus press are just a couple.

llewelyn are terribly commercialised - it seems they want authors to churn out as much as they possibly can, quantity rather than quality.

the sad thing is that they do have some very good authors capable of excellent work - though they tend to be drowned out by the crap that gets churned out all too often.

[RubyRose]

This was a very informative thread. I've been interested in Blodeuwedd for a long time.

[teishabee]

I just think its too easy to put them down. The pagan movement has grown and we have a choice of the sources we get but for a while many authors couldnt be published.

Anyway back to Blodeuwedd, I take your point AL and respect it.

So do we see her as a deity, archetype or ancestoral spirit? I see the same situation with morgan the fey. Only many (I say wrongly) view her as a watered down morrigan/morrigu.

[RubyRose]

I just think its too easy to put them down. The pagan movement has grown and we have a choice of the sources we get but for a while many authors couldnt be published.

Anyway back to Blodeuwedd, I take your point AL and respect it.

So do we see her as a deity, archetype or ancestoral spirit? I see the same situation with morgan the fey. Only many (I say wrongly) view her as a watered down morrigan/morrigu.

I see her as a deity. I know many say that she isn't a goddess. That she is just a figure in the Mabinogion. But I see her as a Goddess.

[KEishin]

I agree with you RubyRose - to me she is a deity. She "felt" that way when we met. *shrugs*

[ancestral_lee]

i will go for her being a cross bewteen deity and ancestral spirit.

[KissMeImIrish!]

i will go for her being a cross bewteen deity and ancestral spirit.
I agree with Ancestral_Lee, however IMO I don't think it really matters as both can be worshipped and worked with in the same way.

[raven grimassi]

the best source will be founf in the aacademic section of the library or book shop rather than the ramblings of a llewelyn author

Seems like a very broad brush to paint Llewellyn authors with. Many of us are very dedicated to research and authenticity.

*kisses toes* Thank you ever so much for making a distinction between Llewelyn-horse-shit and books.

Seems like an unnecessary remark as there are many good quality books published by Llewellyn.

If it not for Llewelyn I dont think we would have as much information availiable to us. Ok so some of the stuff is fluff but some descent authors are published through them also and I dont think slamming them is proving anything.

Agreed. I think the mature approach is to take the grain and the chaff, sift, and keep what is worth keeping. Then with a breath of kindness, blow the rest away.


llewelyn are terribly commercialised - it seems they want authors to churn out as much as they possibly can, quantity rather than quality.

More accurately, I think that Llewellyn wants authors to "churn out" the type of books that the buyers want. Sales indicates what the market wants, and witch-crap/wicca-crap outsells everything, which is very sad.

Llewellyn is a business, and like any other they follow the viable market. Fastfood restaurants are frequented much more than are fine restaurants. But is it really the fault of Jack-in-Box or McDonalds that people line up for a quick burger with fries?

Personally, I find authors that I like and dislike in every publishing house. I don't blame Llewellyn for what readers keep buying, because there are other alternatives. A business survives because people need or want the specific product that is produced. Llewellyn is no exception

the sad thing is that they do have some very good authors capable of excellent work - though they tend to be drowned out by the crap that gets churned out all too often.

Yes, stereotypes really do an injustice to individuals.

Best regards - Raven

[-Ember]

And some of us try to avoid buying spiritual supliments from fast food theoried places....

It isn't just because much of what gets churned out is not good for you. But pretty soon it is all just burgers and fries, bland and greasy. And however well intentioned the author, they simply are not encoraged to produced a quality product... usually, in fact, the opposite. Quanity and blandness sell better than quality with flavor.

I don't expect better than fast food from a Mcdonalds or Burger King. Should I get something there of quality, I would wonder about the cook and how long they are going to last, and what they might have been in a better resturant. And I expect better from a better resturant. If they don't, I think more poorly of them. Similarly, I wonder about any quality author at Llewellyn. And there are some I wonder about. And there are many who have produced one thing that was quality then mass produced it into to a general blandness(the same book over and over again.) There are also some that I know are courted and pampered, and some who have contractual thumbscrews applied to produce whatever swill they can most quickly create.

I have no qualms advising someone not to expect much from Llewellyn. By their own business logic, they define themselves as something not to expect anything from. It wasn't always the case. Many of their earlier books... but now?

[teishabee]

Lend the books from the library, no one is forcing anyone to buy here. Like raven grimassi, its a market.

I say it teacfhes us to take everything we read with a grain of salt.We should be doing our own research and not being spoon feed, which is the kind of society we are turning into.

[ancestral_lee]

Raven..

i apolosie for any offence, generalisatins are a little foolish so i will rephrase. many of the authors churn out sh**e, whilst there are others who produce excellent work.

its interesting that you chose McDonalds as an analogy - especially as the film Supersize Me is on TV over here in UK tonight. we all know much of what they serve in that place is awful and seriously unhealthy and people know it, but well, the public as a whole are stupid (as someone who has worked for several years with the public i can assure you thats the case) people in numbers are foolish and dont listen. as far as mcdonalds are concerned, you need to shake people and shout to make them listen and see what you are trying to tell them DONT eat that - look at whats in it !

it would be nice if llewelyn were to emulate thier fast-food counterpart and make a move towards more 'healthy' foods and so foster a more respectable image. maybe if they were to only produce higher queality and well researched work, then people would have to buy that - and overall we get a much better 'educated' pagan populace.



oh and this has to be one of the best threads yet - ever :)

[Aikaterine]

I also agree with the analogy and own only a small number of books by them as i was warned of them a few years ago. But i will admit they do come up with a corker now and again and it would seem that they mass produced for the needs of the market. But some of the books might give the wrong impression to those new to paganism or would like to take on a more spiritual knowledge.

[raven grimassi]

And some of us try to avoid buying spiritual supliments from fast food theoried places....

Choice is one of the greatest things we enjoy in the land where we live. Some people choice quality, others something less. Other than self-appointed judges, who gets to decide the standard or the measure?

It isn't just because much of what gets churned out is not good for you. But pretty soon it is all just burgers and fries, bland and greasy.

I have no argument with that, and I share the disheartened feeling at what comprises the mainstream material available today.

And however well intentioned the author, they simply are not encoraged to produced a quality product... usually, in fact, the opposite. Quanity and blandness sell better than quality with flavor.

It is a well-known fact that if an author of our genre wants to make a living as a writer he or she needs to dumb down the material and write for a certain market. However there are those of us who cannot bring ourselves to do that and still feel good about what we produce. I know I could pay the rent if I wrote crap, but I don't and so I can't. I am sure my critics would say that I do write crap, and they are certainly entitled to their opinion. But I, and a handful of others, are not in this for the money nor the notoriety. We're trying to provide for others what we wish had been available to us when we were seekers.

I wonder about any quality author at Llewellyn. And there are some I wonder about. And there are many who have produced one thing that was quality then mass produced it into to a general blandness (the same book over and over again.)

Everyone has to make their own choices in life, and we cannot know what needs, concerns, and fears are at the core of those decisions. I am not here to judge the choices others make for their lives. But I do know that integrity and personal honor still lives, and for these authors life is a struggle on the financial level. But I can appreciate that weary eyes can no longer distinguish.

There are also some that I know are courted and pampered, and some who have contractual thumbscrews applied to produce whatever swill they can most quickly create.

Having written ten books for Llewellyn, and having talked about contracts with a great many other authors, from that perspective Llewellyn's contracts appear pretty standard in the industry. Thumbscrews are not necessary, as a Publisher can get what they want by simply appealing to an author's ego, greed, or fear.

I have no qualms advising someone not to expect much from Llewellyn. By their own business logic, they define themselves as something not to expect anything from.

I respectfully disagree. Llewellyn produces something for everyone. One of the things I admire about Llewellyn is that they give an author a chance that other Publishers would not. From there the book is either successful or fails, but that is up to the readers.

It wasn't always the case. Many of their earlier books... but now?

Back in the 60s (when I first encountered Wicca) there were two markers of quality when looking at books in the bookstore. One was the crescent moon on the spine of the book (Llewellyn) and the other was an ankh (Weiser). If only it were still that simple.

Best regards - Raven

[Ron]

So you can call my approach to Llewelyn books immature -- if that's what you need to feed your ego, so be it.

The reason why I call all that is Llewelyn "horse shit" is because any publisher that will waste so much paper is less useful than horse shit. Infact, calling Llewelyn horse shit is quite the compliment. I refuse to respect money greedy companies. Call the approach immature; watch me roll my eyes... until my head rolls off.

[Nemesis Descending]

So you can call my approach to Llewelyn books immature -- if that's what you need to feed your ego, so be it.

Looking at Grimassi's comment, it was only mentioned in reply to someone named Teishabee (not you) and not as anything negative. Hmmm...it's revealing though that you felt attachment. Looks to me like all that happened here is that you just found a shoe that fits, and you don't want to be seen walking in it.

[size=1]The reason why I call all that is Llewelyn "horse shit" is because any publisher that will waste so much paper is less useful than horse shit. Infact, calling Llewelyn horse shit is quite the compliment. I refuse to respect money greedy companies. Call the approach immature; watch me roll my eyes... until my head rolls off.

Oh yeah, that's very mature....

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

[-Ember]

Lend the books from the library, no one is forcing anyone to buy here. Like raven grimassi, its a market..
Choice is one of the greatest things we enjoy in the land where we live. Some people choice quality, others something less. Other than self-appointed judges, who gets to decide the standard or the measure?

I couldn't care less if people buy it or not. But I also don't have to feel compelled to reccomend it, nor compelled to not reccomend against it if someone asks. If they choose to buy, that is their money. Continuing the fast food analogy: I don't care to protest the existence of Mcdonalds, nor am I going to care if someone chooses to eat there. But neither am I going to suggest it nor am I going to go out of my way to try them in hopes of finding something decent there when there are more reliable alternatives.

I say it teacfhes us to take everything we read with a grain of salt.We should be doing our own research and not being spoon feed, which is the kind of society we are turning into

But I'm not going to recomend something or support something I find questionable just in order to muddy the water and confuddle the seekers.

But I, and a handful of others, are not in this for the money nor the notoriety. We're trying to provide for others what we wish had been available to us when we were seekers. One of the things I admire about Llewellyn is that they give an author a chance that other Publishers would not.
Is the key word "handful"? More seriously... I'm sure that there are many well intentioned authors. But that does not make them knowledgeable on what they are writing. And there are many well intentioned and knowledgeable people, but that does not make them good authors. And Llewelly puts many of both on the market. Which is too bad often for them, I think, because they often end up never publishing anything better and get a reputation based on those early books. Some move on later, but many.... all I ever see from them are a few Llewellyn books with hints of something, some diamonds in the swill, but they stay that way and either never get the push to refine the swill, or never feel able to overcome the fact that they do get a reputation for it.

Having written ten books for Llewellyn, and having talked about contracts with a great many other authors, from that perspective Llewellyn's contracts appear pretty standard in the industry. Thumbscrews are not necessary, as a Publisher can get what they want by simply appealing to an author's ego, greed, or fear.

On the contracts, my understanding is that they do simply publish anything, and quite a few authors get into bigger contracts than they really should at first and start mass producing similiar works or sludge-quality in order to work through them as quickly as possible. On the other hand, I also know that some of the bigger name authors who have a name first are well treated. I'll grant most of my information is third hand, X mentioning Y's complaints sort of things, but I do trust my sources and their sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Ember
I have no qualms advising someone not to expect much from Llewellyn. By their own business logic, they define themselves as something not to expect anything from.

I respectfully disagree. Llewellyn produces something for everyone.

I think you misunderstood my point.... Perhaps if I said not to expect anything of depth? Of quality? Not that such books don't occur at times, but it simply is not to be expected.

I know as a Llewellyn author you are inclined to take this personally, Grimassi... please don't. There are some authors who publish primarily through Llewellyn that I am very fond of (Ashcroft-Nowicki, for example.) But I do not respect Llewellyn as a whole. I've read far too many books that make obviously erroneous claims (most of the potato-test failures I've run into, for example), and are badly written.

While I do not hold to the rede as a law, the long version does have some good advice:
"With no fool a season spend,
lest ye be counted as his friend"

I am sorry for the implication that all Llewellyn authors are awful. But they do choose to associate with those who are. It may be a choice between being accessible or having higher standards, but those are the breaks. I'm not going to respect the whole mess because a few good names are associated with them.

[raven grimassi]

So you can call my approach to Llewelyn books immature -- if that's what you need to feed your ego, so be it.

Actually, I was not addressing you, but was instead speaking in general. Teishabee had commented about slamming people, and I remarked to her in support about what I considered to be a mature approach to the problem.

As to my ego, it is an old couch potato and really gets up anymore to exercise. ;)

The reason why I call all that is Llewelyn "horse shit" is because any publisher that will waste so much paper is less useful than horse shit. Infact, calling Llewelyn horse shit is quite the compliment.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I respectfully disagree with it, but I defend your right to speak your mind.

[size=1]watch me roll my eyes... until my head rolls off.

While that does present some appeal, it is probably best that we all keep our heads. ;)

On the contracts, my understanding is that they do simply publish anything

Sounds like another urban legend of the evil Llewellyn beasty. ;)

But no, actually Llewellyn turns down a lot of manuscripts. But as I said, Llewellyn does give authors a chance that other Publishers would not. Many of the authors who get turned down end up bad-mouthing Llewellyn and fostering misinformation. I think the same can be said of some disgruntled authors who have left Llewellyn.

and quite a few authors get into bigger contracts than they really should at first and start mass producing similiar works or sludge-quality in order to work through them as quickly as possible.

It is probably more that certain authors push for those contracts, and find themselves not having as many good books in them as they first thought. Llewellyn is actually fairly conservative with their contracts, and my personal experience has been that they counsel caution and a "let's wait and see how things go first" kind of attitude.

I know as a Llewellyn author you are inclined to take this personally, Grimassi... please don't.

I think that my objections lie more with not thinking too highly of stereotypes, which deny justice to the individual.


I am sorry for the implication that all Llewellyn authors are awful. But they do choose to associate with those who are. It may be a choice between being accessible or having higher standards, but those are the breaks. I'm not going to respect the whole mess because a few good names are associated with them.

I understand your feelings, and simply have a respectfully different view of Llewellyn.

Best regards - Raven

[Aikaterine]

and back to Blodeuwedd.......

*looks hopefull*

any more thoughts?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'm not inclined to think of Bloudewedd as a deity myself, but instead as something that might be a cross between a nature/ancestral spirit. However, it is my opinion that it is entirely impossible for humans to comprehend deity, so I am fully willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong. The impression I've gotten of her however from reading her myths is that she was not originally a deity. But I do think that through group mindset that over time she has become a deity.

It is similar to Scathach. I do not think that she either (or many/most of the various Celtic deities) was original perceived as a goddess. It is my impression that most if not all of those that we call gods, were generally perceived, by the Celtic tribes, as local land spirits and/or ancestors. But do to the way that began to be perceived by conquering peoples (Romans, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) and later peoples (us for example) I think that they have evolved into what we call deity.

I hope I made some sense. If not, ask away and I'll try to clarify.

[ancestral_lee]

I'm not inclined to think of Bloudewedd as a deity myself, but instead as something that might be a cross between a nature/ancestral spirit. However, it is my opinion that it is entirely impossible for humans to comprehend deity, so I am fully willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong. The impression I've gotten of her however from reading her myths is that she was not originally a deity. But I do think that through group mindset that over time she has become a deity.

It is similar to Scathach. I do not think that she either (or many/most of the various Celtic deities) was original perceived as a goddess. It is my impression that most if not all of those that we call gods, were generally perceived, by the Celtic tribes, as local land spirits and/or ancestors. But do to the way that began to be perceived by conquering peoples (Romans, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) and later peoples (us for example) I think that they have evolved into what we call deity.

I hope I made some sense. If not, ask away and I'll try to clarify.

makes perfect sense... encapsulates roughly how i see her, not a 'deity' as such but more a local/tribal spirit of some sort who became 'elevated' by the races who came later - such as the romans with thier fixed deity pantheon style.

[Aikaterine]

Same here, it makes perfect sense and reads well.
I myself am more inclined to the deity attitude *shrugs* but i do understand and have said that many would of originally been something else or a myth thats evoled into form/belief. :)

[ancestral_lee]

Same here, it makes perfect sense and reads well.
I myself am more inclined to the deity attitude *shrugs* but i do understand and have said that many would of originally been something else or a myth thats evoled into form/belief. :)


no, no, no, no we cant have all this agreement!!!

what can we argue about now ! ?

:crazyman:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I said it first! Ha! I'm rightest! :razz:

[-Ember]

and back to Blodeuwedd.......

*looks hopefull*

any more thoughts?

Sorry, it was most impolite of us to steal the thread.


On the deity or not... I think we have a problem in english. The word means too many things. Under some interpretations, yes. Others, no. What meanings of divinity a 3rd century welshman might have accepted for her..... dunno.

[Aikaterine]

I said it first! Ha! I'm rightest!

HA! i started the thread! and got all defensive first!, your right about all the agreement now, so i have a new *Deity* for you all (Arnemetia) as VERY little is known i shall post what i have found and see how that one goes!!!!!

Sorry, it was most impolite of us to steal the thread.

No worries

[teishabee]

In her original state. I think its a no but I think she has developed a stronger "presence". Whether this is as a diety I think only her followers can answer.

[Nemesis Descending]

Um....so... is it the currently prevailing thought that a deity can be just imaginary? If so, what's the point of worship or veneration, and how can it aid the needs of its followers? I'm curious.

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

[Aikaterine]

Um....so... is it the currently prevailing thought that a deity can be just imaginary? If so, what's the point of worship or veneration, and how can it aid the needs of its followers? I'm curious.

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending


ahhh Can it not be from the need of the people that such a being, image, deity etc could of and can be created?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Nemisis, I don't think I (I can't speak for the others) was saying that she was imaginary. What I was getting at is that while she was not originally a deity, over time she evolved into one due to the way she came to be perceived by conquering people and modern worshippers. I do think it is possible for someone/thing that did not start out as deity can become such. In Japan, according to Shinto thought, the emperor is a living deity and if I recall correctly upon his death he joins the other deities in their version of heaven/the Otherworld.

[John_Mischief]

I'm not inclined to think of Bloudewedd as a deity myself, but instead as something that might be a cross between a nature/ancestral spirit. However, it is my opinion that it is entirely impossible for humans to comprehend deity, so I am fully willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong. The impression I've gotten of her however from reading her myths is that she was not originally a deity. But I do think that through group mindset that over time she has become a deity.

It is similar to Scathach. I do not think that she either (or many/most of the various Celtic deities) was original perceived as a goddess. It is my impression that most if not all of those that we call gods, were generally perceived, by the Celtic tribes, as local land spirits and/or ancestors. But do to the way that began to be perceived by conquering peoples (Romans, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) and later peoples (us for example) I think that they have evolved into what we call deity.

I hope I made some sense. If not, ask away and I'll try to clarify.

With the Celts though, aren't they almost the same thing? Some are more worshipped than others and therefore more "godlike" I guess, but in the end none of them are really Creator Gods or anything very Universal.

I think one of the biggest problems people trying to learn about the various Celtic Gods have is that they expect them to be all powerful beings that live in space and created the world, or something like that. While a lot of cultures did have Gods like that...and certainly Christianity has instilled that sort of thing in most people's minds, the Celts never seemed to have anything like it.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Typically speaking yes, the Celtic tribes did view their "deities" as ancestor spirits. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that means they thought deity, ancestral spirits, and nature spirits were the same thing. I think that Bloudwedd, having been created out of plants, is much more likely to have been a nature spirit/genus loci than an ancestral spirit/deity type of being.

:fofftopic To be honest we can't say that they didn't have any "creator or universal" type gods. We don't have any record that they existed, but that doesn't mean they didn't. The absence of evidence does not make it impossible that there was in fact a creation god or myth. Remember they were an oral culture, they transmitted their lore through the written word, which makes it highly probable that there is much that has been lost, especially in comparison to cultures who did record their myths. Even the ones we do have were written down centuries after the practices and beliefs had all but ceased to be practiced, by Christian monks at that. The lore itself has been quite altered from what the People tribes believed. There are glimpses of the world being created. For example their is the story of the Cailleach flying over the land dropping boulders from her apron and creating mountains. That could possibly be a remenant of a much larger creation myth. Just something to think about. :vanish:

[Nemesis Descending]

What I was getting at is that while she was not originally a deity, over time she evolved into one due to the way she came to be perceived by conquering people and modern worshippers. I do think it is possible for someone/thing that did not start out as deity can become such.

Really? How so? I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm just wondering how something that is not a god or goddess becomes one.

In Japan, according to Shinto thought, the emperor is a living deity and if I recall correctly upon his death he joins the other deities in their version of heaven/the Otherworld.

And so he is a god simply because people think that is what happens to his soul? Sounds implausible to me.

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

[ancestral_lee]

Really? How so? I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm just wondering how something that is not a god or goddess becomes one.

well that depends on what you think a 'god' is. to me they are 'powerful' spiritual beings. they help out when we need them to and guide us.

an ancestral spirit which is honoured by geneations can therefore become 'godlike'. its all about belief and power - things whcih we give them.



And so he is a god simply because people think that is what happens to his soul? Sounds implausible to me.

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

it may sound implausible, but its how our ancestors probably saw things, thats not just me saying that but ive come across the idea in archaeological and anthropological journals.

to turn it around, our ideas give a reason for the gods being - they are closely tied in with man. alternatively you might say gods are eternal - if so, what did they do for the 3.7 billion years of life on earth before we turned up, and even more so, what did they do for 14 billion years since the universe came inot being ?

to me, eteranal and infinate beings are implausable.

lee

[Aikaterine]

Really? How so? I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm just wondering how something that is not a god or goddess becomes one.

Hasn't that been answered in the thread already? they could of done something great for the tribe, or something equally as bad, then the stories are passed on, and maybe like chinese whispers evolve into something greater. Or simple they did. A name given to a energy, never a person but a name to represent something then stories and myth were created around them as a way to spread word and encourage others to believe.
This could be just 2 possibilitis.

And so he is a god simply because people think that is what happens to his soul? Sounds implausible to me.

Whats implausible to one is very much in the heart of another.

[teishabee]

My beliefs are that entities can become very powerfrul from just plan belief. I would say the devil is a prime example of this.

Thought forms manifesting energy.

[Nemesis Descending]

My beliefs are that entities can become very powerfrul from just plan belief. I would say the devil is a prime example of this.

Thought forms manifesting energy.

Okay, I see, and so then the beliefs of millions of Christians in hell as a place where we Pagans and Witches will go and suffer for eternity has lots of power. Hey, since they greatly outnumber us (greater mass of energy) we'd better get ready for a real roasting! ;)

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

[teishabee]

Okay, I see, and so then the beliefs of millions of Christians in hell as a place where we Pagans and Witches will go and suffer for eternity has lots of power. Hey, since they greatly outnumber us (greater mass of energy) we'd better get ready for a real roasting! ;)

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending
Hey thats nice but how about a little respect. ;)

You did ask and I gave you my beliefs.

[Nemesis Descending]

Hey thats nice but how about a little respect. ;)

You did ask and I gave you my beliefs.

I was trying to be funny by playing off YOUR comment about belief in the devil. It wasn't meant to offend you. Still, it does raise a hell of an interesting dilema.

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending

[-Ember]

I'm still holdng to theory that we also just don't really have a developed vocabulary to discuss it. If you study philosophy, there are words given a technical definition that isn't allowed to change in order that different philosophers can discuss concepts without explain ing each word, and each word in the explination. But in english language theology, we don't have words that start to describe what we're working with.

Example:
Yes, deity can be imaginary (*gasps of horror*) Doesn't mean that it isn't real. Problem is one of the closest general english words for the concept is imaginary, and there is not a general technical term for it (trad a calls it this, trad b calls it that, and solitary c recognises it but has no need to call it anything....) And imaginary in general usage has connotations that don't apply. If I bring certain philosophical words out, like know, believe, argue, prove... same problem. I mean something specific, but the words in general usage imply things I don't mean.

I would love to establish a standard theological vocabulary. I don't care about the theory as much. The whole point of that is to argue about it until we're blue in the face. I just want some clearly defined, precise words that don't get changed every time some decides they want to use it for something else until the definitions for them don't define anything any more. Like divinity is becoming, and pagan and wicca and witch and.... etc

[raven grimassi]

I just want some clearly defined, precise words that don't get changed every time some decides they want to use it for something else until the definitions for them don't define anything any more.

As Gandalf says in Lord of the Rings - "So do all who live to see such times..."

Anyway, good luck with that. ;)

Best regards - Raven

[ancestral_lee]

Okay, I see, and so then the beliefs of millions of Christians in hell as a place where we Pagans and Witches will go and suffer for eternity has lots of power. Hey, since they greatly outnumber us (greater mass of energy) we'd better get ready for a real roasting! ;)

In Her Service,
Nemesis Descending


alternatively - christians are in a minority to be fair - there are billions of buddists, hindus and muslims along wiht milliins of historiacal pagans too - perhaps out own personal beliefs count more.

maybe we are off to hell, but on a positive note - its where all the fun and interesting people will be, so all day BBQ and warm weather...sex for all...sounds great!

[KEishin]

Save me a seat then eh?

[KissMeImIrish!]

Maybe a little off topic from what everyone is discussing but...does anyone have any good links to more info on Blodeuwedd? I've been researching her lately and just finished the Mabinogion. I would like some info on her from a spiritual P.O.V, as I am starting to work with her.
Would anyone like to share some info on Blodeuwedd from their own spiritual workings? :reading: