"Shamanism" within Druidism (old & new)

[Ron]

Cyfarchion,

It is often the position of many scholars that the ancient Druids were not shamans. I recall a quote to the effect of, "They had very specific names for themselves, none of which was 'shaman." While this is plausible, somehow I feel that 'shamanistic ritual' would have been involved as part of ancient Druidism, mainly because it exists with in most pre-Romano/pre-"Civilized" lands.

I'm a off on a tangent, or am I actually using my head?

Hwyl.

[Dave the Druid]

Nice!

I'm uncomfortable with the title of "shaman" but it does seem to be definitionally correct for pre-historical druids. Don't forget, sociologically, the definition of a group of people has little to do with the titles they give themselves. If it's a semantic quibble then you seem to be on the side of each culture is unique has it's own names and those names are valid. Fair enough.
If you mean by 'shamanistic ritual' that they invoked spirits and practiced using herbs(really broad definition) then you are again correct.

Where are you going with this?

[skilly-nilly]

Cyfarchion,

It is often the position of many scholars that the ancient Druids were not shamans. Hwyl.

I can see both sides:
On the one hand, 'Shaman' isn't a Celtic-group word, so no of course Druids wouldn't have called themselves that. I think that's a quibble, however. If Druids did what one defines 'Shamanism' as then both 'Shamans and Druids were practicioners of 'some less-culturally-defined defination word here'

On the other hand, if (as I do) one defines 'Shamans' as 'people who use specific cultural practices to enter a trance/altered state, communicate directly with God/s/dess/desses there, and bring back messages, augeries, etc from there' then Druids unquestionably did those things.

On the gripping hand, I think that the entrance into trance state is far more important than what one calls it.

Why do you ask? :spinnysmi , skilly-nilly

[Phi]

Cyfarchion,

It is often the position of many scholars that the ancient Druids were not shamans. I recall a quote to the effect of, "They had very specific names for themselves, none of which was 'shaman." While this is plausible, somehow I feel that 'shamanistic ritual' would have been involved as part of ancient Druidism, mainly because it exists with in most pre-Romano/pre-"Civilized" lands.

I'm a off on a tangent, or am I actually using my head?

Hwyl.You are actually using your head. :)

I wonder why those same scholars do not say that they were not judges because they did not call themselves "judges?" Their words were Celtic, yet every day we use English or other equivalents to translate those words.

My only problem with calling them "shamans" is that they were also many other things within their society, and not exclusively shamans.

I shake my head when they are called "priests" even though they may have provided guidance in the spiritual sense, because it seems to leave out all the other things the Druid "job descriptions" might entail. Also because it brings to my mind a picture of paternalistic-to-the-exclusion-of-women-as-religious-leaders as seen in the Hebrew and Christian, but which was not evidenced in the Celtic, who esteemed a number of Goddesses as well as female Druids.

Within what is now referred to as the "Druid class" are quite a few job descriptions, many of which had their own names in the Celtic languages, but which still may have fallen under the title "Druid" then, and were certainly taught in Druidic schools.

No one word in English seems to encompass all the things that "Druid" does, though. I guess it would make for unwieldy sentences to have to preface every statement with "Among other things the Druids were also...."

There are many who consider themselves to be experts on the Celts who "picked up the sword before learning to dance" with the Celtic spirits. There are some authors who do not hesitate to use that sword to slash sarcastically and cynically at the (logos/gnosis)words, therefore the spirits, of others. This tendency to be easily sarcastic and cynical toward the spirit/spiritual seems to be strong within our Western culture, while the mythology of the Celts seems to teach reverence and respect for the spiritual.

[Ron]

Superb. You've supported what I was thinking.

I'm fascinated at how much some have been taken aside by the fact that 'shaman' is not a pseudo-'Celtic' word. The thought crossed my mind, but I quickly buried it, realizing that it's just a bunch of sounds, whereas the deeper definition is what I was interested in.

I shake my head when they are called "priests" even though they may have provided guidance in the spiritual sense, because it seems to leave out all the other things the Druid "job descriptions" might entail. Also because it brings to my mind a picture of paternalistic-to-the-exclusion-of-women-as-religious-leaders as seen in the Hebrew and Christian, but which was not evidenced in the Celtic, who esteemed a number of Goddesses as well as female Druids. Nevertheless, in my mind the word "priest" invokes an image of a priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, like I saw on the Disovery Channel, which is clearly a not an image of anti-female-clergism. (Yes, I have invented a new very compound word.) I guess that I am just excentric.

:abored:

Why do you ask?
(Howdy Ottawa Sister) I was reading another "All You Could Ever Want to Know About Druïdism" piece of balony, and came across the quote I mentioned earlier ("They were not shamans."). Realizing that the only Druidism that I've practised could be uncovered as shamanism by the archeologists of the future, I sort of giggled at the piece of balony, then went off into a lot of deep and humouring thought. I decided that I should look a little deeper into my initial reaction, since it seemed rather emotional and did not appear to be completely rational; I just wanted to make sure that I was not a jack-o-lantern.

_tomatoe_

Where are you going with this?
No where too far: I was just mocking the aforementioned piece of belony and exploring my interests into the minds of others. As well, I am hoping to spark new insightful threads in this forum.

_happydanc

Gwyn eich byd.

[skilly-nilly]

Within what is now referred to as the "Druid class" are quite a few job descriptions, many of which had their own names in the Celtic languages, but which still may have fallen under the title "Druid" then, and were certainly taught in Druidic schools.

This tendency to be easily sarcastic and cynical toward the spirit/spiritual seems to be strong within our Western culture, while the mythology of the Celts seems to teach reverence and respect for the spiritual.

One of the "job descriptions" of the Druids was that of Bard, and one of the traditional jobs of the Bard was to make fun of pomposity and taking-oneself-too-seriously. As well, a more important part was to expose rulers who acted out of the common good to terrible sarcasm as a means of bringing them back to Right Action.

Sarcasm had a respected place in the weapon-set, to be used before invoking fasting against a bad ruler. In the same way that battles were sometimes decided by the confrontation of just the 2 opposing champions, they were also sometimes decided by insult-matches rather than actual fighting.

The 'Celts' were definately earthy rather than ethereal.

[Dave the Druid]

if I might....

Earthy? you bet!
Ethereal, no? well that does away with the Ovates.

Good points about Bardic actions but I would suggest placing yourself in the Bard's position first at the table of the one he is making fun of and then at another place.

I like the take on sarcasm but there is one thing I wish to share. It was said that a Druid's curse or sarcasm could in the face of the cursed raise welts. I haven't tried this but I am considering it.

[Ron]

I like the take on sarcasm but there is one thing I wish to share. It was said that a Druid's curse or sarcasm could in the face of the cursed raise welts. I haven't tried this but I am considering it. ahahaha. :smash: Best of luck with that mate.

[Phi]

[QUOTE=skilly-nilly]One of the "job descriptions" of the Druids was that of Bard, and one of the traditional jobs of the Bard was to make fun of pomposity and taking-oneself-too-seriously. As well, a more important part was to expose rulers who acted out of the common good to terrible sarcasm as a means of bringing them back to Right Action.

Sarcasm had a respected place in the weapon-set, to be used before invoking fasting against a bad ruler. In the same way that battles were sometimes decided by the confrontation of just the 2 opposing champions, they were also sometimes decided by insult-matches rather than actual fighting. [QUOTE]



Oh yes! I quite agree with you here. It was said that the sarcastic bardic weapon was greatly feared and rightly so.

However, if you reread what I actually said, "This tendency to be easily sarcastic and cynical toward the spirit/spiritual seems to be strong within our Western culture, while the mythology of the Celts seems to teach reverence and respect for the spiritual."

You will note that I said sarcastic and cynical toward the spirit/spiritual, which no bard would ever think to do, for they had enormous respect for their gods and for those who shared contact with the spiritual.

So I see the Celts as being both quite earthy and quite spiritual/ethereal. They used sarcasm with a good dose of magic in it, but they did not take it lightly or use it lightly.

BTW, the authors I referred to in the post above are some of the authors of some of the books I have read. It seems that the less they respect the Celtic tribes, the more likely they are to put a pro-Anglo or pro-Roman slant on their supposed "historical facts" in what are supposed to be scholarly and therefore balanced treatises. And the more likely they are to be very sarcastic and cynical regarding any historical value in the Celtic mythologies, even though they have no hesitation referring to Classical myth in their favor.

In addition, there are authors who discredit anything which cannot be "proven" by historical reference. Some of these same authors have no problem with the stories of magic performed by the Christian saints, but discount any pre-Chirstian magic as nonsense. These authors also disbelieve that there was anything of spiritual value in the practices before Chirstianity.

Also I use the word "Celtic" and "Celt" to refer to all the early Celts, not necessarily only to those who retained their Celtic speech patterns. Since I am not referencing only to the Irish, Manx, Scottish, Welsh as they are given today, but to others as well, it seems the best and clearest terminology to use such that all who read my posts comprehend my meaning.

[odubhain]

One could go here and read what Erynn Laurie and I once had to say on the topic:

http://www.wildideas.net/cathbad/pagan/dr-guide4.html

Searles

[Ron]

One could go here and read what Erynn Laurie and I once had to say on the topic:

http://www.wildideas.net/cathbad/pagan/dr-guide4.html

Searles
NB: That's the article with the quote that I was talking about.

[odubhain]

I think the crux of the argument is that the word "Shaman" was never used in a Celtic context but that the Druids certainly had a shamanic approach to working with the natural and supernatural worlds. Erynn even seems to have come around to that understanding in her joint article with Timothy White:

Laurie, Erynn Rowan & Timothy White, "Speckled Snake, Brother of Birch: Amanita Muscaria Motifs in Celtic Legends", Shaman's Drum #44, March/May 1997, pp 53-65 Shaman's Drum, PO Box 97, Ashland OR 97520 examines the possibility that the filidh used entheogenic substances to attain imbas

Searles

[Ron]

I'm going to throw this in for fun's sake: The word "shaman" has Sanskrit origins ("sramanah"). Some will juxtapose Hindu traditions and Druid ones, comparing them quite closely, and even going as far as to theorize that the ancient Druids and Brahmins have sprung from the same group. Thus, one can surmise that the word "shaman" is sprung from the same roots as Druidism itself, and that therefore the word is quite applicable to modern Druidism.

Rhys,
Thinking outside the breadbox.

[Dave the Druid]

What a great connection! :clapping:

I will say this, use or non use of word from a root language doesn't preclude it from being understood as a concept. I myself can do away with the shaman label quite easily. I have reached the conclusion that going for shaman rather than Druid is a bit short sighted. How many Wiccans are shaman and do we want or deserve the title?

[odubhain]

What a great connection! :clapping:

I will say this, use or non use of word from a root language doesn't preclude it from being understood as a concept. I myself can do away with the shaman label quite easily. I have reached the conclusion that going for shaman rather than Druid is a bit short sighted. How many Wiccans are shaman and do we want or deserve the title?
I've always felt that the name Samhain and Shaman have a lot in common as well as the Irish word for sleep, "suan." Linguists will scream at such an etymology, however, the *ideas* (which are disguised by words) are what is important rather than the forms of the words themselves.

I son't think that Druids need to label what they do as being Shamanic since being Druidic encompasses that and much more.

Searles

[Ladyvi]

while not going for a shamanic label. i do revere the shamanic roots of druidism. i do realize that the druid is much more than a shaman, but i still use the shaman skills with the druid workings. it does apply. such as the journeys into the underworld or otherworld. connecting with totem creatures and my own personal totems and power animals. very shamanic and yet very applicable with the druid.

[Ron]

I've always felt that the name Samhain and Shaman have a lot in common...[]... *twitches* Hmm. Well I suppose that I could say that words "witch" and "twitch" are connected too. Not to throw your feelings out the window, but I think Samhain and Shaman are not so materially linked, while I do admit that it is possible.

:artist: If you would like to pm me something that might convince me otherwise, I am open to it.

[Dave the Druid]

It's a fair cop and linguistics are to blame as well.

Before going all willy-nilly about similar sounding words it might be useful to find their root origins. Sort of as a by the way, is it mere coincidence that Samhain is the most important festival of the year with it's thin veil between worlds seemingly has at least in phoentics a link to shaman? I won't say but it is worthy of research, don't you think?

[Ron]

I won't say but it is worthy of research, don't you think? I don't. The words have too different pronounciations to be visibly linked, imo. But a Rhodes scholar could otherwise convince me. I'm being stubborn about this for a reason... that I can't seem to decipher at this moment.

:) Sorry. :)

[Ladyvi]

i thought samhain was an old germanic word. .. could be my scrambled brain.

[Ron]

i thought samhain was an old germanic word. .. could be my scrambled brain.
I've never heard that... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=samhain gives an Irish etemology.

[CzechWoods]

I agree and disagree.

i agree that the druids of the past and the shamans of the past had similar roles.

but what is now seen as druid and now named shaman has little to no congruency i am afraid

the word shaman/ka comes actualy from sibiria, and originally was used in the female form: shamanka.

as the inuit people are genetically linked to some sibirian people, it is quite possible that the term shamn/ka wandered from sibiria to the american continent.

[Ladyvi]

rhys. I may have gotten something scrambled in my head. i do believe i said that. I cant put my finger on it but something about it is Germanic. The celts where not just irish. May take me a bit to place my finger on what it is.

[Dave the Druid]

rhys. I may have gotten something scrambled in my head. i do believe i said that. I cant put my finger on it but something about it is Germanic. The celts where not just irish. May take me a bit to place my finger on what it is.

Germanic? Give this map a look.
http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/appendix/map-celticworld.htm

[Ladyvi]

take away a third of the water and you will have it.

i had a dream about the germanic side of the celts. and a lot of lightning.

but i suppose thats for me to figure out. and no i dont have any germanic blood.

what i find funny is that folks forget about that. during these ancient times often its before the deluge. the flood. there wasnt as much water as there is today.

[Dave the Druid]

take away a third of the water and you will have it. .

i had a dream about the germanic side of the celts. and a lot of lightning. .
it was written but the Germanic branch was, seemed particularly violent
but i suppose thats for me to figure out. and no i dont have any germanic blood. . I have some of that

what i find funny is that folks forget about that. during these ancient times often its before the deluge. the flood. there wasnt as much water as there is today.
which deluge is that? careful with your sources......

[Ladyvi]

the big one. it did actually happen. not just some story in the bible. a lot of land got covered.

some of my info comes from the book 'Everything you know is wrong" by Lloyd Pye with a significant list of sources for his info including stichin. while i know stichin(and im probably spelling it wrong) is contreversial. he did translate many a summerian/babylonian text as well as others. he is fluent in several ancient dead languages.

i have not had enough coffee to sort out the other souces Lloyd Pye mentions.

[Morgaine_cla]

Actually, there are a number of "inundation" or flood myths in the Welsh, at least. The myth of Gwyddno Garanhir and Meroe, which attributes the inundation to the King's failure to uphold his oath to Sovereignty; and an early Arianrhod story that attributes the flooding of the Menai Straits to her failure to keep watch over a well, both come to mind. The well myths are particularly numerous and always follow the same theme: the inundation results when the well maiden fails in her duty and the site's prophetic voice and healing powers are subsequently lost.

(Interesting, as the well maidens disappear again until the tales of Arthur, which tell of the companions' failed campaign to restore them)... There are many examples of these tales, and many more that are yet to be translated and published.

Where do they come from? Not the Christians, for the origins of the stories precede them by many centuries. But perhaps archeology can provide an answer, for if we look at the number of "drowned" Stone and Bronze Age ringstones and settlements turning up, we have to think that there sea level (at least) has changed many times. Also, there have been tidal waves, storms, and other phenomena that would be remembered in the lore not only of the Celts, but of those who preceded them. While the exact origins of these tales may never be finally proved, that they exist is documented...

I cannot say that it is to these that LadyVi refers, but I can say that the lore is there -- at least from a Welsh perspective.

Many blessings,
M

[Ladyvi]

every culture has a story about the deluge.

thanks for the imput on the welsh lore. quite intriguing.

[ap Dafydd]

Where do they come from? Not the Christians, for the origins of the stories precede them by many centuries. But perhaps archeology can provide an answer, for if we look at the number of "drowned" Stone and Bronze Age ringstones and settlements turning up, we have to think that there sea level (at least) has changed many times. Also, there have been tidal waves, storms, and other phenomena that would be remembered in the lore not only of the Celts, but of those who preceded them. While the exact origins of these tales may never be finally proved, that they exist is documented...


I've seen it suggested that the origin of some of these stories (and they crop up all along the Welsh coast) was the rise in sea level at the end of the Ice Age. Wales was certainly inhabited at this time. Some of them have been transported inland, there are many lakes which are also associated with inundations.

dial a ddaw!

Ffred

[Dave the Druid]

that's the problem with racial memory, no one keeps source material. Did the one in the black sea happen before there was movement to other parts of the world? The Maya have no flood myth nor the toltecs or inca. I have a problem with the "whole wet world" idea.

[Ladyvi]

i dont think the whole world got wet. but a fairly good majority of it. as far as the mayas and toltecs. they up and disappeared. and no one knows where they went. the mayas i think. incas .. anyway. perhaps it was before the deluge ? .. a reason for no record. ~ shruggs ~ . a lot of assumptions i know.