Folk Magic vs. Witchcraft whats your oppinion

[dragenfly]

I have been really leaning towards Folk Magic more and more lately. And I was wondering what you guys thought of Folk Magic versus Witchcraft, the diffrences in your oppinion. Why do you like one over the other if you do?

[AstralMagick]

I love folk magic because it's mostly more simple. Witchcraft, I do practice, but I believe folk magic is more like Druidic magic (which I LOVE). I don't really do one over the other though.

[DracoJesi]

I love folk magic because it's mostly more simple. Witchcraft, I do practice, but I believe folk magic is more like Druidic magic (which I LOVE). I don't really do one over the other though.

oh thanks for explainig that Astral, I was like what? LOL

well judging by what she said I think it depends on what you want to do and all, if you want a complex ritual then go with witchcraft, if you want to do somthing simple than do somthing with folk magick,

is there any particular reason if any, why you cant use both?

[-Ember]

I tend to think of folk magic as a practice, individual pieces, and witchcraft as being a worldview.... as argued elsewhere, something I'll settle for accepting the name of religion for. Witchcraft should imply something holistic, complete... be it Wicca or Traditional or something else. Folk magic can be more scattered. A practice.

[Aidron]

oh thanks for explainig that Astral, I was like what? LOL

well judging by what she said I think it depends on what you want to do and all, if you want a complex ritual then go with witchcraft, if you want to do somthing simple than do somthing with folk magick,

is there any particular reason if any, why you cant use both?


Actually that statement is rather inaccurate. Witchcraft by definition is usually in large part folk magic itself, but rather than strictly being folk magic it can incorporate other elements. Regardless, the definition has long since been utilized throughout history as describing folk magic, but not always strictly folk magic.

To answer the original question, the only difference would be whether you incorporate other elements of ritual and magic into your craft as opposed to adhering solely to folk magic. I myself follow the former as I enjoy versatility and complexity, combined with simplicity.

I do not think you can compare and contrast the two and see a great deal of division except in rare or extreme cases to be honest. Wicca, which can incorporate witchcraft, can tend to border more on ceremonial rather than folk magic, which is probably where the confusion (if there is any present) in this lies. It's one of the reasons I always felt it witchcraft was not entirely the most appropriate label to use in conjunction with Wicca as you will often find much more ritualistic and ceremonial elements than folk magic ones. This of course could depend on how you define folk and ceremonial magic. Generally the two sets of definitions follow a pattern that folk magic is more simplistic and/or tackles more mundane goals and problems, while ceremonial magic is often more complex and/or engrosses the practioner in more transcendental aspects.

However, as I've said, Witchcraft can and does allow for more freedom in what you assimulate and practice than strictly adhering to folk or ceremonial magic alone, so I find the only true benefit in comparing the two to be eclecticism and greater variety.

[Aidron]

I tend to think of folk magic as a practice, individual pieces, and witchcraft as being a worldview.... as argued elsewhere, something I'll settle for accepting the name of religion for. Witchcraft should imply something holistic, complete... be it Wicca or Traditional or something else. Folk magic can be more scattered. A practice.


You would not agree that Witchcraft is not a practice? I ask because I did not quite understand your sentence regarding accepting the name of a religion for.

If we look at Witchcraft as we do folk magic in that many cultures do not ascribe to the label of folk magic just as they do not ascribe to the label of Witchcraft, then both can very much be greatly scattered. Of course, the same is true of ceremonial magic. The labels can be restricting in targeting just where and how such practices and magical procedures truly take place, but that is merely a downfall of language I fear.

[dragenfly]

I tend to think of folk magic as a practice, individual pieces, and witchcraft as being a worldview.... as argued elsewhere, something I'll settle for accepting the name of religion for. Witchcraft should imply something holistic, complete... be it Wicca or Traditional or something else. Folk magic can be more scattered. A practice.

Yeah thats what I have been feeling lately as I look into Folk Magic. It is less ritualistic and there is something about it that seems to draw me into it moreso than witchcraft. hmmmm its more earthy, that sounds dumb right but its the olny word that keeps popping into my head. :)

[Ben Gruagach]

I agree with what Aidron said, although I'd take it one step further. To me, witchcraft and folk magick are really the same thing. The only difference is what label you choose to use.

Folk magick can be very spontaneous and simple or it can be complicated and very ritualistic. Just like witchcraft.

The word witch and witchcraft has had a negative connotation for such a long time in the general population (and still does in many parts of the world) that a lot of people who do things that are identical to witchcraft call what they are doing folk magick or something else less scary sounding just to try and put their own practices in a more positive light. The practices though are not really any different.

[Ron]

Why not just forget about quibbleful labels and practise whatever, can say: "This is me and this is who I am." ?

When someone asks me if I practise witchcraft, I answer, "Do you want me to?"...

I do what I believe, and I'm quite happy forgetting about what everyone else thinks about it, or what it should be called, so I just call it: Me & My way.

Rhys,
Pagan to the bone.

[Ron]

dragenfly: Shakespeare has an 'e' at the end.

[Aidron]

I agree with what Aidron said, although I'd take it one step further. To me, witchcraft and folk magick are really the same thing. The only difference is what label you choose to use.

Folk magick can be very spontaneous and simple or it can be complicated and very ritualistic. Just like witchcraft.

The word witch and witchcraft has had a negative connotation for such a long time in the general population (and still does in many parts of the world) that a lot of people who do things that are identical to witchcraft call what they are doing folk magick or something else less scary sounding just to try and put their own practices in a more positive light. The practices though are not really any different.


If we ascribe to the definition that folk magic focuses moreso on the mundane or physical realm then I could certainly see where it does not entirely meld with Witchcraft in some respects. While I fully support the stance that Witchcraft is not a religion, but a practice, there have been many practioners labeled Witches throughout the centuries who have take a certain ceremonial and religious approach to their craft. Sometimes sparingly, sometimes often, sometimes all the time. However, if we also look at folk magic as being more simplistic than ceremonial magic, that too would not hold up perfectly with Witches from centuries past from a historical sense.

Both are entirely possible, even in a modern context. I know many people, myself included who can take their craft to such a degree of complexity that it's only possible after years of study. On the other hand I know many people, myself included again that take their craft to a place of worship, religious affiliation and so forth. This is not to say that the craft is these things, but rather that is deeply interwoven for a moment or several moments in time that it crosses over from folk magic.

Regardless of that though, I do think your presented ideas are fairly logical and sensible, and the latter of which that the word Witch carries with it such a negative association that it is one of the main reasons why so many people do not reference it. I myself am finding it to be more trouble than it is worth, to take on a title that has been engulfed in negativity for countless centuries only to have it muddied up by people in this day and age further.

I digress, however, so in comparison to Vodoun or Hoodoo, which can have very similar elements to Witchcraft yet are often ascribed (usually in ignorance, but sometimes in truth depending on the specific practice or practices) being folk magic. Since that is not an entirely accurate portrayal and it has similar potential to be just as complex or divinely related as Witchcraft, I find myself only able to draw the conclusion that Hoodoo and Vodoun, much like Witchcraft, tend to offer a greater spectrum of possibility than simply adhering to the label of folk magic.

[Aidron]

Why not just forget about quibbleful labels and practise whatever, can say: "This is me and this is who I am." ?

When someone asks me if I practise witchcraft, I answer, "Do you want me to?"...

I do what I believe, and I'm quite happy forgetting about what everyone else thinks about it, or what it should be called, so I just call it: Me & My way.

Rhys,
Pagan to the bone.


I don't think that labels are entirely the point that is trying to be made, which as always labels can be confusing. I think the more significant point trying to be conveyed here is that regardless of titles, a straightforward look at the practices under the two labels and attempting to compare and contrast them for greater clarity.

[Sequoia]

They're the same thing. You'll get the same result, by whichever name you call it.

All "modern witchcraft" is based on a mixture of ceremonialism and folk lore. A huge dollop of folklore. Actually, mostly Christian folklore, and some pre-Christian folklore, if you take a good look.

[Aidron]

They're the same thing. You'll get the same result, by whichever name you call it.

I must disagree with that, since by practicing folk magic whether you adhere to either aforementioned definitions in my other posts you are in a sense limiting yourself more than the versatility and Witchcraft (as well as many other systems) seem to inherently possess, historically and from a modern point of view. Focus is of course lessened with versatility as always, but I find that to be the main difference.

All "modern witchcraft" is based on a mixture of ceremonialism and folk lore. A huge dollop of folklore. Actually, mostly Christian folklore, and some pre-Christian folklore, if you take a good look.

I must disagree with this as well since my own craft omits any and all Judeo-Christian lore, theology and ethics among other things out of sheer preference, and since I can hardly fathom witches practicing in an identical manner that I do in history I would thus be practicing modern witchcraft.

[Sequoia]

I must disagree with this as well since my own craft omits any and all Judeo-Christian lore, theology and ethics among other things out of sheer preference, and since I can hardly fathom witches practicing in an identical manner that I do in history I would thus be practicing modern witchcraft.

Do you believe in faeries? Do you use incense? Do you believe in magic? Do you think there are psychic attacks? Do you believe in 'spells'? Do you believe in rituals and ritualistic prayer?

Countless Christians believed in these things for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You'd have to be strictly following some kind of Aborigional practice to completely abandon all beliefs held by Christians at some time or another.

And pretending that you're practising some "olde tyme religione" is a bit silly. Probably well over 80% of today's "paganism" fables and concepts either were shared or had their root in Christian folklore. It's simple fact.

So either be confidant in your beliefs because you hold them, or be nervous because oh my gosh, you happen to share them with a member of another religion. Woe be to you.

[Ben Gruagach]

The big reason I say that witchcraft and folk magick are really the same thing, just different names for it, is because when we look at what the practices actually are they are the same range of things.

Both witchcraft and folk magick can be a part of one's particular spiritual practice -- but they are also not inherently tied to any one religion. You can practice witchcraft or folk magick within any or no religious context. Some people do make it a big part of their spiritual path -- Wicca is a good example of a particular religion that makes folk magick or witchcraft a major component. But not all witches are Wiccans, and Wicca itself has only been around really since Gerald Gardner while witchcraft and folk magick have been around since the dawn of humanity.

[Ron]

I don't think that labels are entirely the point that is trying to be made, which as always labels can be confusing. I think the more significant point trying to be conveyed here is that regardless of titles, a straightforward look at the practices under the two labels and attempting to compare and contrast them for greater clarity.
:rolleyes: I realised that. I was simply saying that I don't really see the point of analysing such one's own practises as such.

Sure, it might be fun to compare one's practises with that of another... but that's not really what was happening here.

[Romani Vixen]

Folk magic is a type of witchcraft. What I do is primarially folk magic. I tend to get distracted with more formal types of witchcraft (such as golden dawn)... I hate memorization, but feel that it's important to have your spell memorized (less distraction). So I keep it more simple. Most of the time... lol

[-Ember]

You would not agree that Witchcraft is not a practice? I ask because I did not quite understand your sentence regarding accepting the name of a religion for.

If we look at Witchcraft as we do folk magic in that many cultures do not ascribe to the label of folk magic just as they do not ascribe to the label of Witchcraft, then both can very much be greatly scattered. Of course, the same is true of ceremonial magic. The labels can be restricting in targeting just where and how such practices and magical procedures truly take place, but that is merely a downfall of language I fear.

The first part of that, the bit regarding religion, refers to another debate elsewhere....

Mostly, what I mean by it is simply that I see witchcraft as requiring something more than a practice... it requires a certain way of percieving and understanding life, the universe and everything. It becomes intermixed with everything.

Folk magic, on the other hand, can be an anomaly in someone's worldview and still fit. It is a more self contained thing.

The lines blur... there are many forms of witchcraft that incorporate folk magic, and many forms of folk magic that become broad enough I'd consider them witchcraft.

[dragenfly]

dragenfly: Shakespeare has an 'e' at the end.


Ha ha ha. That he does. I will fix that asap. Thanks

[dragenfly]

I don't think that labels are entirely the point that is trying to be made, which as always labels can be confusing. I think the more significant point trying to be conveyed here is that regardless of titles, a straightforward look at the practices under the two labels and attempting to compare and contrast them for greater clarity.

Yes that was my point anyway. You said that perfectly. :uhhuhuh:

[dragenfly]

However, as I've said, Witchcraft can and does allow for more freedom in what you assimulate and practice than strictly adhering to folk or ceremonial magic alone, so I find the only true benefit in comparing the two to be eclecticism and greater variety.

And I think the opposite, that Folk Magic allows me greater variety.

[dragenfly]

Folk magick can be very spontaneous and simple or it can be complicated and very ritualistic. Just like witchcraft.

Yeah thats it, thats what I am getting from looking into it.

[Carla O'Harris]

Do you believe in faeries? Do you use incense? Do you believe in magic? Do you think there are psychic attacks? Do you believe in 'spells'? Do you believe in rituals and ritualistic prayer?

Countless Christians believed in these things for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You'd have to be strictly following some kind of Aborigional practice to completely abandon all beliefs held by Christians at some time or another.

And pretending that you're practising some "olde tyme religione" is a bit silly. Probably well over 80% of today's "paganism" fables and concepts either were shared or had their root in Christian folklore. It's simple fact.

So either be confidant in your beliefs because you hold them, or be nervous because oh my gosh, you happen to share them with a member of another religion. Woe be to you.



Funny, I don't recall any reference to fairies in the Bible, or in any of the creeds. In fact, I find Christian clerics trying to turn fairies into demons and devils.

The fairies predate Christianity.

Were the people living there "Christians"? What does that term mean?

If you go to church on Sunday, does that make you a Christian?

If you pick up vague ideas about the cosmology while going about your everyday life, does that make you Christian?

If you continue the same rituals your pre-Christian ancestors did, but now the figure at the well you visit is a saint rather than a goddess, does that make you Christian?

Actually the terms "pagan" or "Christian" are far too inaccurate to really capture who any but the most disciplined and fanatic are.

[Aidron]

Do you believe in faeries? Do you use incense? Do you believe in magic? Do you think there are psychic attacks? Do you believe in 'spells'? Do you believe in rituals and ritualistic prayer?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. None of these, however, are inherently Christian and belief and theories regarding them existed long before Christianity.

And pretending that you're practising some "olde tyme religione" is a bit silly. Probably well over 80% of today's "paganism" fables and concepts either were shared or had their root in Christian folklore. It's simple fact.

Kindly keep your forked tongue behind your teeth if you're going to presume to speak for me, particularly if it is contradictory to what I have already stated. I never claimed to be practicing any old time religion, nor would I ever spell as atrociously as you have in some pious and lame attempt to degrade me. Keep that mess off the boards, if you please.

And no, many things are not rooted in Christian folklore. Shared by it? Certainly. Rooted in it? You are obviously hallucinating historical fallacies.

So either be confidant in your beliefs because you hold them, or be nervous because oh my gosh, you happen to share them with a member of another religion. Woe be to you.

I am confident and I care not if I share things with other religions. Again, keep that tongue behind your teeth if you are going to be so presumptuous as to speak for me and try to transpose fallicoius hypocrisies into my own words. I do not take kindly to it and you certianly will never garner anything more than contempt from me after this immature display of bullshit. :rolleyes:

[Aidron]

:rolleyes: I realised that. I was simply saying that I don't really see the point of analysing such one's own practises as such.

Sure, it might be fun to compare one's practises with that of another... but that's not really what was happening here.


Many do see the fun in it, which is the point of the thread. If you find it so unamusing I am curious as to why you are even in it.

[Sequoia]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. None of these, however, are inherently Christian and belief and theories regarding them existed long before Christianity.

No, not all of them are rooted in Christianity, as far as the Bible goes. But a great deal of medieval Christians believed in things such as faeries, dragons, magic, etc - and therefore your belief is shared. The imagry of things like brownies, pixies, etc can be traced back in fairly solidified form at least into the middle ages - which, as you may or may not choose to know, was vastly Catholic in most of Europe. Naturally the concept of a spirit being is much older than that, but the general ideas of things like "being elf-shot" or having faeries stealing your eggs, etc, came greatly in the form of folklore that was spread and believed in by Medieval Christians.

If you want to think it's all just yours, the hereditary witches, and the new age movement's ideas, that's fine. But you've gotta acknowledge historical fact. People've been gossiping about the fae for longer than your family tree probably can be traced back.

Kindly keep your forked tongue behind your teeth if you're going to presume to speak for me, particularly if it is contradictory to what I have already stated. I never claimed to be practicing any old time religion, nor would I ever spell as atrociously as you have in some pious and lame attempt to degrade me. Keep that mess off the boards, if you please.

Ooh, they're your boards now? See, I didn't accuse you of practicing anything. I said "if you think" (the 'you' being plural). Hmm. Are you looking for persecution?

And no, many things are not rooted in Christian folklore. Shared by it? Certainly. Rooted in it? You are obviously hallucinating historical fallacies.

Riiiight. Since you don't seem to know anything about something, that means it's a historical fallicy or hallucination.

Look. For the past two thousand years, Christians have been employing banishing rituals, incense, prayer, 'spells' (in the form of ritualized ceremonies, which is all spells really are, anyway), a wide and varied mythology of creatures like Saints, Angels, Demons, and various other folklore creatures of the range of pixies, brownies, and dragons. They firmly believed in concepts like witchcraft and curses (why, all caused by the devil, no doubt), and between the named Saints, named Angels, and obvious figurhead Demons, they had their own pantheon going there.

You can try to tell me that (for example) you use incense because the Ancient Egyptians did, but you're going to have to be honest with yourself in saying that you DO share the practice with like... nearly every religion known to mankind, including Christianity and Judaism. It's just... really simple fact. If you can't cope with sharing practices of other religions, you're going to have to get really creative.

Surprisingly enough, many "very authentically pagan" spells or rituals have a heavy basis in Christian or Jewish mysticism. Take, for example, "The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentacle." It says "pentacle", so it must be pagan, right? And you chant really ancient-sounding words, and make movements with your hands to symbolize things (and no noo, Catholic Priests never do anything like that). So it has to be pagan! But... let's stop here a second. Those words? "mee chai ell" That's... Michael. Oh dear lord, you're chanting in hebrew and you're chanting the names of Archangels! Aah! Persecuted by the Christians again, and without even realizing it! Now, who was mean enough to try to convert me by calling a Judeo/Christian mystic ritual, "Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentacle?!" If you've ever seen old church windows, you'll from time to time see pentacles in the old old stained glass. Pagans don't have a monopoly on that one, either.

Even Wicca, flagship of the New Pagan Religion Movement, has a HUGE amount of its rituals based in Christian Mysticism. Even much of today's New Age movement is based, loosely, on certain Christian or Jewish ideas, thoughts, or folklore.

I am confident and I care not if I share things with other religions.
But, but- what about this?
...since my own craft omits any and all Judeo-Christian lore, theology and ethics among other things out of sheer preference...

Erm... if you're going to rip me a new one, please try to be consistant in your position. It weakens your position a little when you contradict yourself.

Again, keep that tongue behind your teeth if you are going to be so presumptuous as to speak for me and try to transpose fallicoius hypocrisies into my own words. I do not take kindly to it and you certianly will never garner anything more than contempt from me after this immature display of bullshit. :rolleyes:


-_-; I'm the one who displays immature 'bullshit'? I can tell. Your red karma gave me all the info I needed as to how secure you are in your beliefs. I have a forked tongue? Sweet. I'm like a devil, right from the Bible! Way to mix-and-match your demons. At least I didn't liken you to a Biblical beast. After insisting that my religion was completely unrelated and totally seperate from Christianity as much as I could do.

But I'm sure that you're going to say the forked-tongue thing is just a coincidence. After all, you've never heard any Christian ideas in your long life, therefore you cannot be influenced by them, even subconsciously.

[Carla O'Harris]

Ok, I think you have a good point that we share things in common with other religions, and this can be fertile to explore.

However, again, the idea of identifying anyone as belonging to a particular religion is not as easy in the past as it might be today where such identities are more rigid in days of identity-politics.

Europe was widely "Catholic" in those days? What precisely does that mean? I'm pointing to a crisis of meaning in your words. I will absolutely acknowledge that Europe in those days included a high dose of Christian concepts floating around in the social unconscious and folklore, and which influenced practice : to say otherwise would be absurd. But it's much more arguable that it was doing so in a highly syncretic way that combined with much older concepts. I therefore don't know what to call such people. Were they Christian? Were they pagan? Were they "folk Christian"? Were they "folk pagan with a Christian veneer"? Any and all of these might apply.

As far as elfshot goes, elves and their effects far predate Xianity, and this is verifiable in the Eddas.

I absolutely am open to the way the European Unconscious played with Christianity and wove its themes into its already rich mix ; however, I find it somewhat dishonest to assume that "folk" fill-in-the-blank religion draws upon no older pagan themes. Why do saints and folk magic exist in both Christianity and Islam, for example? Because they installed themselves on cultures with millenia-old symbols and practices already in function that could not instantly be eradicated, and thus, an adjustment took place.

Now, this adjustment has been noted from the top-down, in terms of Gregory saying adapt the heathen temples to the churches, etc. But it's insulting to think that it did not also happen from the ground-up, and this is precisely what recurrent Church missals against well-worshipping and so forth was about. These things had no basis in Biblical lore ; that doesn't mean that people calling themselves "Christians" couldn't practice them, but it does mean that Christianity as defined by the Church was at worst opposed to them, and at best very uncomfortable with them, but would live with it for the time being. The fact that "Christians" self-defined could engage in practices that were divergent from Biblical and Papal lore is the very reason the Church was so concerned in these times with heresy, and there is no doubt that the interrelationship between the various heresies and the folkloric elements has been vastly underexplored.

The fact is that given the mixing of peoples that has always been going on, symbols from the social unconscious have been combining in creative ways for some time, and thus I hesitate to put the stamp of identity politics on various ideas.

Certainly we can point to much occult lore and see traces of the Kabbalah there. But what precisely are we saying? Scholem demonstrates that much of the founding documents of the Kabbalah were written in the 1100's, 1200's, and 1300's in the South of France precisely where a creative synthesis was occuring between open minded Jews, open minded Catharist Christians, and open minded Sufis. There was a nexus of mystical minded people sharing information ; we would expect that the Jews, more literate than most in those vastly more illiterate times, would record some of these ideas as they were synthesized into their own tradition. Clearly, however, others found value and resonance in these recordings and ended up adapting them to their own needs. In fact, most of these ideas trace back to Gnosticism, and the unanswered question of how long Gnosticism in fact managed to survive has yet to be fully covered, although many important authors are working on it.

That may in fact be the key to unlocking most of our history, because, it would seem, that Gnosticism was never fully banished as is evidenced by its repeated popping up again and again. This is fully relevant to the subject of pagan survivals because Gnosticism was fully comfortable syncretizing pagan myths and philosophies. If there were Gnostic subcurrents throughout the Middle Ages and into the early Modern period -- a thesis which is becoming easier and easier to document and argue -- then it would be a currency which was fully compatible with synthesizing pagan folkloric elements into Mystery cultish mysticism ; and additionally, Gnosticism always had a connection with Hermetic lore which would explain the place of that in the medieval and early modern underground.

Thus we may have to change some of our categories in order to really penetrate the protean flow and texture of our history : the distinctions may not be between "pagans" and "Christians", but between differing approaches to a fundamentally pagan folkloric substratum on the part of two very differing Christianities : one a centrally controlled, hierarchical, and dogmatic organization, the other a more decentralized but in some ways no less coherent form of affinity-group.

[mothwench]

[QUOTE]No, not all of them are rooted in Christianity, as far as the Bible goes. But a great deal of medieval Christians believed in things such as faeries, dragons, magic, etc - and therefore your belief is shared. and this is news to whom??? :wtf: i'll just ignore the rest of your post because it's such a non-event.
If you want to think it's all just yours, the hereditary witches, and the new age movement's ideas, that's fine.
WTF??? what are your motives for being here, may i ask? if i didn't know better from your previous posts i would call you a christian fundi troll.


Ooh, they're your boards now? See, I didn't accuse you of practicing anything. I said "if you think" (the 'you' being plural). Hmm. Are you looking for persecution?
and that is just... :T you're funny, you are. :rolleyes:



Riiiight. Since you don't seem to know anything about something, that means it's a historical fallicy or hallucination.
she seems to know alot more than you, for example, what is relevant to the conversation, and what is so bloody obvious it goes without saying.

Look. For the past two thousand years, Christians have been employing banishing rituals, incense, prayer, 'spells' (in the form of ritualized ceremonies, which is all spells really are, anyway), a wide and varied mythology of creatures like Saints, Angels, Demons, and various other folklore creatures of the range of pixies, brownies, and dragons. They firmly believed in concepts like witchcraft and curses (why, all caused by the devil, no doubt), and between the named Saints, named Angels, and obvious figurhead Demons, they had their own pantheon going there.
yes, okay. this seems remotely relevent. are you saying folk magic is largely christian, and witchcraft is more pagan, or :huh: cause i was thinking, the thing about folk magic, is the great many "charms against witches"... it's always puzzled me a bit. so, i agree with ben, it's both the same thing, just depends on who defines themselves as what.

You can try to tell me that (for example) you use incense because the Ancient Egyptians did, but you're going to have to be honest with yourself in saying that you DO share the practice with like... nearly every religion known to mankind, including Christianity and Judaism. It's just... really simple fact. If you can't cope with sharing practices of other religions, you're going to have to get really creative.
errr... there you go again. what is this about? :lol: i'm really confused. why are you so hung up on this? let me explain something: when a person says they follow a traditional pagan path, that does not mean they have to exclude anything within that path that is coincidently shared by other religions. that kind of behaviour would require a deep contempt for other religions, which, to be honest, i've not come across much in the pagan community. it would also give you stomach ulcers. :awilly:

Surprisingly enough, many "very authentically pagan" spells or rituals have a heavy basis in Christian or Jewish mysticism. Take, for example, "The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentacle." It says "pentacle", so it must be pagan, right? And you chant really ancient-sounding words, and make movements with your hands to symbolize things (and no noo, Catholic Priests never do anything like that). So it has to be pagan! But... let's stop here a second. Those words? "mee chai ell" That's... Michael. Oh dear lord, you're chanting in hebrew and you're chanting the names of Archangels! Aah! Persecuted by the Christians again, and without even realizing it! Now, who was mean enough to try to convert me by calling a Judeo/Christian mystic ritual, "Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentacle?!" If you've ever seen old church windows, you'll from time to time see pentacles in the old old stained glass. Pagans don't have a monopoly on that one, either.
:lol: whatever. i have no idea what ritual that is. but it makes no difference, cause i don't recall pagans ever having claimed a monopoly on any practices. There are claims of origin, yes. Most are justified, some are not.
Even Wicca, flagship of the New Pagan Religion Movement, has a HUGE amount of its rituals based in Christian Mysticism. Even much of today's New Age movement is based, loosely, on certain Christian or Jewish ideas, thoughts, or folklore.
i can't answer that one, i'm not wiccan. obviously.

-_-; I'm the one who displays immature 'bullshit'? I can tell.
yes. and i'd quote and comment on the rest, but really, i can't be bothered anymore. and i find the thread topic interesting, and it would be a shame if it got closed, so... stop yer bitching. :lol:

[Sequoia]

I was commenting in reply to the contradictions s/he listed, what with the "I'm not even remotely Christian or Jewish because I choose to exclude the things they do from my practices" and then going on about how "so what if I share the same practices"... just a bit hypocritical.

Frankly, I think "folk magic" and "witchcraft" are two names for the same concept. Is there some special Witch College you go to, to make it different than mythos that "folk" pick up? Is herbology passed down through schools of science, or is it more something that people studdied on their own, found their own ideas about, and created their own mythos surrounding?

It sounds like just another attempt to say, "I'm more superior than you, because I practice Witchcraft, not just folk magic."

[Darkdale]

It sounds like just another attempt to say, "I'm more superior than you, because I practice Witchcraft, not just folk magic."

:) People like to make themselves feel superior with labels. :) Just smile, nod and go about your business. It's insecurity that makes people try to make themselves appear to be superior.
:viking:

[mothwench]

Frankly, I think "folk magic" and "witchcraft" are two names for the same concept. Is there some special Witch College you go to, to make it different than mythos that "folk" pick up? Is herbology passed down through schools of science, or is it more something that people studdied on their own, found their own ideas about, and created their own mythos surrounding?
no... no witch college. though there are some organized covens who teach their practices to novices. i personally study on my own, and yes i do find my own ideas and interpretations when i research the practices of pre-christian european cultures. and yes, i'm interested in herbeology, and i do realise that much of herbeology is owed to christian monks and nuns (hildegard von bingen for example). i never felt an urge to flee from herbeology just because it's in part christian. I do not make it a part of my spirituality, because i really don't have much of a healer in me anyway, but i still pursue my interest in it.
in any case, i agree, i think the two terms have always described basically the same practices/actions, i just think that at some point in time it just became acceptable and respectable in some circles, to use the term "witch". the meaning of the word has undergone quite some change in the last couple of centuries. i think that people who refer to themselves as witches nowadays almost certainly wouldn't have used that term to describe themselves had they been alive around the time they are attempting to reconstruct. that doesn't, however, invalidate them in any way, because they are in fact using a correct term when speaking our modern language.

It sounds like just another attempt to say, "I'm more superior than you, because I practice Witchcraft, not just folk magic."
:lol: i don't think that's true. i have a feeling, whenever i read comments like that, or someone complaining about "paganer than thou" pagans, that they are in fact the ones who feel inferiour for whatever reason, and that this is some attempt to explain or excuse the feeling of inferiority (is that a word?) to themselves and others. i think it's sad and it just damages everyones relationship to their fellow pagans. *shakes head*

[Darkdale]

wheneveri read comments like that, or someone complaining about "paganer than thou" pagans, that they are in fact the ones who feel inferiour for whatever reason, and that this is some attempt to explain or excuse the feeling of inferiority (is that a word?) to themselves and others. i think it's sad and it just damages everyones relationship to their fellow pagans. *shakes head*

This can also be true. Be careful though, that you can tell the difference between the person who is confident about their beliefs and the person who is not, who becomes holier than thou in order to make up for their own insecurity and lack of faith.

[Ben Gruagach]

This can also be true. Be careful though, that you can tell the difference between the person who is confident about their beliefs and the person who is not, who becomes holier than thou in order to make up for their own insecurity and lack of faith.

In my experience, the people who actually know their stuff don't have the "holier (or witchier) than thou" attitude.

[Darkdale]

In my experience, the people who actually know their stuff don't have the "holier (or witchier) than thou" attitude.

Well, I suppose it depends on how you define holier than thou. :) Some people get angry at you if you know more than they do.

[dr_zeus440]

there arent any differences because the two terms are nigh on synonymous. 'imo'. -5 points.

but to the more interesting point, the whole 'holier than thou' phenomenon...i really could care less. if theyre better, good for them. if im better, good for me. either way, diamonds arent forever.

[Sequoia]

In my experience, the people who actually know their stuff don't have the "holier (or witchier) than thou" attitude.

:lol: and that's just what I mean.

Ah, so, other than a personal connotation, has anyone got any real proof that "witchcraft" and "folk lore" are truly two seperate and distinct beings, easily identified one from the other?