Use 'em or Lose 'em?

[Darakash]

Ok, this is *sort of* a Part II question to the "expected behavior of Priest/esses thread I started a few days back. For those of you who did not read it, quickly to summarize, I aked the following questions: If you are in a tradition or even in a one-on-one relationship with a priest or priestess do you expect that person to interact in the world in an admirable, "priestly" (for lack of a better word) way, even when they are simply socializing and not performing clergy like duties?

I mean, I guess, do you hold these people to a higher standard than others? Do you think that a person who has acheived such elder status should be in some way more centered and at peace with life etc? If you were to witness behavior that struck you as immature or innapropriate for such a person would you loose your respect for that person as a priest/ess? Would such behavior cause you to question that persons spritual teachings?

Now, I have a follow up question regarding this...let us say that you had experienced enough negative interactions with a Priest/ess that you did in fact lose respect for them, feel betrayed by them, and/or feel that they had in some (major) way violated their priestly relationship with you.....now, let us say, that while you feel this way, you also know that in terms of magickal practice, technique etc., this person is very powerful and has much knowledge. Would you consider continuing to learn from them? Would you "take what you need and leave the rest?" --while not trusting them with any inner feelings/secrets or other things they could betray or the like? I guess what I am quite honestly asking is, would you use them for their knowledge or just remove them from your life?

[-Ember]

At most I'd use them in a very limited and infrequent way. I would not be able to use them as a Priest(ess)... and not much as a teacher. Too much isn't any use if it doesn't have the "any inner feelings/secrets or other things they could betray or the like" components.

Most of the power and knowledge needed to work magic isn't formulaic. Technique by itself isn't much. The foundation it builds on is far more important. And that you can't get help on from someone who you don't have any trust for their foundation, just the structures on it. It is dependent on being integrated into the person doing it. It is holistic, hard to take a piece to any effect without getting the whole of it. And if I feel they aren't fulfilling the priest(ess) role, I want to know what the balance is they have worked out and what it is I want to learn from them. If their balance is not one I would want to consider emulating, do I want to try to learn a peice of it from them to integrate into myself?

For example, I've seen some very powerful groups. Ones that could have taught a lot about pulling power. But part of the cost of that, part of what they did and were to do that, that was also the reason they self-distructed. There is an academic interest in understanding it, but not something I want to incorporate into my practise because I don't want it all.

[IvyWitch]

If anyone violates my trust in a major way, purposely, I will just take whatever I have gotten out of the relationship and walk away. I try not to truck with emotional toxins like that.

[Darakash]

:bumpsmili shameless bumping.....anyone? anyone? Bueller?

[Darakash]

And if I feel they aren't fulfilling the priest(ess) role, I want to know what the balance is they have worked out and what it is I want to learn from them. If their balance is not one I would want to consider emulating, do I want to try to learn a peice of it from them to integrate into myself?

For example, I've seen some very powerful groups. Ones that could have taught a lot about pulling power. But part of the cost of that, part of what they did and were to do that, that was also the reason they self-distructed. There is an academic interest in understanding it, but not something I want to incorporate into my practise because I don't want it all.

First of all..Whoops, I was bumping at the same moment you both were posting!

Next, I see your points and they are excellent. The thing that I guess I am questioning or trying to explore, is whether it IS possible to take the academic knowledge while detaching from the imbalance or unethical character of the teacher. I mean, for instance, I personally right now, hold very different ethics about magic than my teachers. I have explored my own beliefs and standards on these things and have reached what for me, are acceptable boundaries of things I will and will not do, and they are different than my elders. I have not found this to be a barrier to my learning from them. I simply express if/when I would not perform a particular act, and why, how it does not fit with my ethics. But knowing "how" to do said acts is not a problem for me.....

[IvyWitch]

Well, I would consider the things I was taught in the context of what made that person so untrustworthy to me. It's kind of hard to give a direct answer. But, for example if I know my HPS is telling other people that I'm a terrible student and not progressing, and then told me the opposite, I would be inclined not to believe what she said to me and take that advice or teaching to heart. But if the situation doesn't affect something like say, advice on learning the Tarot, then I would keep that knowledge.

Does that make sense?

[Darakash]

Well, I would consider the things I was taught in the context of what made that person so untrustworthy to me. It's kind of hard to give a direct answer. But, for example if I know my HPS is telling other people that I'm a terrible student and not progressing, and then told me the opposite, I would be inclined not to believe what she said to me and take that advice or teaching to heart. But if the situation doesn't affect something like say, advice on learning the Tarot, then I would keep that knowledge.

Does that make sense?
Yep! I guess i could be clearer huh? Well, I am talking about finding out that your HP(S) has been behaving in unethical ways, for instance, betraying confidences that s/he only has knowledge of due to being a HP(S) or things of that nature; or interacting with people in a way that you view as cruel or unbefitting his/her status.

[IvyWitch]

Could you give an example? Becuase unethical is sometimes in the eye of the beholder

[Darakash]

Could you give an example? Becuase unethical is sometimes in the eye of the beholder

Sure, like sharing private info gained through his/her postion about a student....or, being a gossip and talking about people behind their backs, or going out of his/her way to turn others against someone because of a personal conflict with them, that sort of thing....make more sense?

[Chesna]

Ithink the most important thing to consider is why would you want to learn from them?? I mean, yes they have great knowledge and stuff, but if there is no emotional connectivity there..why?? I guess, personally, I would want a teacher that I can talk to. I feel that while we learn we need to expose who we are to ourselves but to those who are teaching us. By creating an intimate relationship, because to me Wicca and the such are very intimate, you are doing more than just learning. You are learning to trust yourself and Divine when it comes to things of a spiritual nature. Again, many will or may disagree, but this is just what I feel.

Chesna

[~Elise~]

It is time to train with someone else. You'll end up getting hurt in the long run, it isn't worth it.

Elise

[Penthesilea]

Sure, like sharing private info gained through his/her postion about a student....or, being a gossip and talking about people behind their backs, or going out of his/her way to turn others against someone because of a personal conflict with them, that sort of thing....make more sense? I'd learn everything I could. I would work like the dickens to learn everthing they had to teach as quickly and thoroughly as I could. And when I had learned everything that I could, I'd walk away without a second thought. And if anyone asked me why, I'd spell it out for them. So, yes, I guess you could say that I would use him/her. And, in the situation you describe, I wouldn't feel the least guilty about it.

[Darakash]

Ithink the most important thing to consider is why would you want to learn from them?? I mean, yes they have great knowledge and stuff, but if there is no emotional connectivity there..why?? I guess, personally, I would want a teacher that I can talk to. I feel that while we learn we need to expose who we are to ourselves but to those who are teaching us. By creating an intimate relationship, because to me Wicca and the such are very intimate, you are doing more than just learning. You are learning to trust yourself and Divine when it comes to things of a spiritual nature. Again, many will or may disagree, but this is just what I feel.

Chesna
You make an excellent point....there are other teachers in the world; it is just a matter of finding them, I guess. The reasons I could think of to continue to want to learn from them is if you had seen that they had indepth knowledge of something that you truly wanted to learn, or that you were/are in such a point in your studies with them, that to walk away would feel like you had wasted a significant portion of your time, maybe?

I can definintely see what you are saying about the intimacy issue, and as I said I think you make an excellent point; however, some folks do find it easier to separate knowledge from emotion, and the Divine from a "clergy member" than others. I can see though, that spirituality itself, is (or perhaps should be) an emotional and intimate thing, and so, a teacher should be someone with whom you could/can share those feelings...hmm more food for thought, Thanks!

[Darakash]

I'd learn everything I could. I would work like the dickens to learn everthing they had to teach as quickly and thoroughly as I could. And when I had learned everything that I could, I'd walk away without a second thought. And if anyone asked me why, I'd spell it out for them. So, yes, I guess you could say that I would use him/her. And, in the situation you describe, I wouldn't feel the least guilty about it.

See this is EXACTLY where my head was going when I first posted the question......but then again, what Pearls59 said:
It is time to train with someone else. You'll end up getting hurt in the long run, it isn't worth it. feels true to me as well.....

And then, and this may be a wierd road to take here, so forgive me, but seriously, what about the possibility of this person seeking or taking some sort of revenge against you if you did speak up, walk away or sever the relationship? Being that they are by definition more effective than you in magic and such....you would have to make sure you had some pretty effective self-defense techniques, wouldn't you? I mean, would fear of that sort of thing play into your thinking at all, and in how you handled the situation?

[~Elise~]

yes--you better have shielding down very well. Also -- you can use a freezer spell to help lessen thier impact on you.

Elise

[Dio]

Sure, like sharing private info gained through his/her postion about a student....or, being a gossip and talking about people behind their backs, or going out of his/her way to turn others against someone because of a personal conflict with them, that sort of thing....make more sense?
A priest/ess is not only a teacher of academics. They should emulate spirituality when around their students. If you are are not getting anything spiritual from them, find someone else. If respect is gone, why continue? If it is only about wanting to learn academics, pick up some books and learn from there. At least you are not being subject to the negativity.

If you are not feeling good about your relationship with a priest/ess or teacher, you are by no means obligated to stick around and try to pretend you respect them. It really does no one any good. Take what you've learned and go from there.

Sort answer...if it doesn't feel right, get out.

[MorningDove030202]

What you describe is exactly the reason why I left an in person group and joined www.witchschool.com instead. I'd rather do distance learning than deal with gossip and unprofestionalism.

Dove

Sure, like sharing private info gained through his/her postion about a student....or, being a gossip and talking about people behind their backs, or going out of his/her way to turn others against someone because of a personal conflict with them, that sort of thing....make more sense?

[Darakash]

A priest/ess is not only a teacher of academics. They should emulate spirituality when around their students. If you are are not getting anything spiritual from them, find someone else. If respect is gone, why continue? If it is only about wanting to learn academics, pick up some books and learn from there. At least you are not being subject to the negativity.

If you are not feeling good about your relationship with a priest/ess or teacher, you are by no means obligated to stick around and try to pretend you respect them. It really does no one any good. Take what you've learned and go from there.

Sort answer...if it doesn't feel right, get out.

*nods head* I see what you are saying, of course, and it makes sense....simply and directly. I guess it is pretty obvious by now that I am in fact talking about a personal situation here, (duh) so one thing that I would say in response to your point about academics and just replacing said person with a book, is that I, personally, am already too much in my head, research, books, and not enough doing/practice etc. One thing that I was getting out my lessons was that i was being "forced" to actually "try" things, to do spellwork, ritual work, meditation, for example, through assignments, and also being given input/feedback on WAYS to actually do them, and make them effective and such.

And the truth is, that my spirituality itself, as in my connection to the Divine, my Deities has little to do with this person at all.

[Darakash]

What you describe is exactly the reason why I left an in person group and joined www.witchschool.com instead. I'd rather do distance learning than deal with gossip and unprofestionalism.

Dove

Ya know, when I first started to investigate Paganism, that is where I went (witchschool that is); though I only did the very first, free lessons, etc....thanks Dove, that might be something to consider returning to! --in a more indepth level.Though I am not particularly Wiccan, and I know they of are the Correlian tradition, it might at least provide a very good "knowledge/academic/assignment" type base for me.....hmmm , I appreciate it.

[~Elise~]

Ya know, when I first started to investigate Paganism, that is where I went (witchschool that is); though I only did the very first, free lessons, etc....thanks Dove, that might be something to consider returning to! --in a more indepth level.Though I am not particularly Wiccan, and I know they of are the Correlian tradition, it might at least provide a very good "knowledge/academic/assignment" type base for me.....hmmm , I appreciate it.

Go check out Witchvox.com -- see what resources are available to you.

Elise

[Londubh]

I was in a similar situation about ten years ago. I was involved for a while with a teacher who ended up being unethical. She wasn't a bad person, and she still isn't, but she could not (and still cannot) see her own unethical behavior and in the end I had to walk away.

It's a complicated story but basically I wish I would have left earlier and on better terms. Like I said though, it was complicated and I also felt that she a great deal to teach me. If you have a clear understanding that your values do not match, leave now. Your spiritual learning will be impacted more then you realize if you really cannot trust your teachers.

Do however realize that your teachers are also humans and will make mistakes. They are learning too, even if the are a HP or HPS. The question is whether or not they learn from their mistakes.
And just think of all the great lessons you are learning right now, like how you would never treat a possible future student and what kind of standards you expect from your future teachers.

[Kendrah]

I'd remove them from my life. If they've abused you in some way, you won't be able to grow around them. If this was all intellect, maybe. But spiritually, you're shields/ walls would become rock hard and nothing would get through to you then. If you can't be completely open with your priest/ess, then it defeats the purpose. And with a dark cloud looming in the back of your mind, it's damn hard to be completely open.

[Darakash]

Do however realize that your teachers are also humans and will make mistakes. They are learning too, even if the are a HP or HPS. The question is whether or not they learn from their mistakes.
And just think of all the great lessons you are learning right now, like how you would never treat a possible future student and what kind of standards you expect from your future teachers.

Alas, I know...which is one of the reasons I posted both of these threads, to help me get my mind around how I was reacting, and feeling etc....I honestly believe that this person cares about me, and it has been difficult to decide whether to act on my negative feelings. I never expected a perfect Priest/ess, but at least wanted a trustworthy one...and that has most definitely been violated...in ways beyond my forgiveness, and after stepping back and looking at past behavior/patterns, this is not a one-time incident that I can write off as a mistake (or mistakes).

[Kaylara]

Depends on what your expectations of a "priestly type person" are honestly. (I'll write more about this later.)

[Darakash]

Depends on what your expectations of a "priestly type person" are honestly. (I'll write more about this later.)
I would love to hear your thoughts, on it, as i said this thread is sort of a continuation of this one: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=92785&highlight=expected+behavior

Which has most of my thoughts on the matter, and some other MW folks' as well...

[MorningDove030202]

They have lots of other useful clases too, like tarot, crystals, palmistry....things that arn't "Wiccan only" so to speak.
Dove

Ya know, when I first started to investigate Paganism, that is where I went (witchschool that is); though I only did the very first, free lessons, etc....thanks Dove, that might be something to consider returning to! --in a more indepth level.Though I am not particularly Wiccan, and I know they of are the Correlian tradition, it might at least provide a very good "knowledge/academic/assignment" type base for me.....hmmm , I appreciate it.

[Chesna]

You make an excellent point....there are other teachers in the world; it is just a matter of finding them, I guess. The reasons I could think of to continue to want to learn from them is if you had seen that they had indepth knowledge of something that you truly wanted to learn, or that you were/are in such a point in your studies with them, that to walk away would feel like you had wasted a significant portion of your time, maybe?

When Iread this my first thought was.. is learning ever wasted?? Then I thought, when you have time vested into something it is hard just to walk away. Maybe what you have a hard time with is letting go. Kind of a cut your losses and run type of thing. Who knows!??


I can definintely see what you are saying about the intimacy issue, and as I said I think you make an excellent point; however, some folks do find it easier to separate knowledge from emotion, and the Divine from a "clergy member" than others. I can see though, that spirituality itself, is (or perhaps should be) an emotional and intimate thing, and so, a teacher should be someone with whom you could/can share those feelings...hmm more food for thought, Thanks!

I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say. Think of it like this. In high school, the teachers that get kids to learn are those that can gain trust and a relationship on some level, then the true learning can begin. If you can develop or if that relationship had been damaged, how much more learning are you going to be able to do??
Another thought- although you are not wiccan I would hate for you to learn and then run. You know, use that person, me being Wiccan sees that as violating the 'Harm none' idea. But if that doesn't bother you, dowhat you need. I still feel you can and will find someone who will be the teacher you deserve and need.

Chesna

[Penthesilea]

See this is EXACTLY where my head was going when I first posted the question......but then again, what Pearls59 said:
feels true to me as well.....

And then, and this may be a wierd road to take here, so forgive me, but seriously, what about the possibility of this person seeking or taking some sort of revenge against you if you did speak up, walk away or sever the relationship? Being that they are by definition more effective than you in magic and such....you would have to make sure you had some pretty effective self-defense techniques, wouldn't you? I mean, would fear of that sort of thing play into your thinking at all, and in how you handled the situation? First let me say that I'm entirely self-taught so I've never been in the situation you describe but the few times I've had to defend myself, I've been successful. I'm afraid my ability to be intimidated was exhausted a looong time ago, so a disaffected teacher wouldn't have my fear to work with. And one thing about working intimately with someone, you learn what they are likely to do. Since I am not a particularily wiccan witch, anyone foolish enough to throw negative energy at me is going to get it back in the teeth and then, assuming I'm sure who's responsible, they will have their butts bound so fast they won't know what hit them. In the situation you describe, I'd be more worried about gossip put out in the community (pagan and non) than magical attack and any binding I would put on would include specific instructions concerning gossip and other such troublemaking. So, no, I wouldn't be especially worried about retaliation, just mindful of the possibiility.

[Darakash]

In the situation you describe, I'd be more worried about gossip put out in the community (pagan and non) than magical attack and any binding I would put on would include specific instructions concerning gossip and other such troublemaking. So, no, I wouldn't be especially worried about retaliation, just mindful of the possibiility.

EGAD! I hadn't even thought about that! I am such a shmuck! Thank you for that little heads-up! :hairraise

[dr_zeus440]

lol, shmuck. id say use them till theyre dry, then cut and run. but then, thats what works for me, because im a selfish bastard. do what works for you, blanket rule. -10 points.

[Penthesilea]

EGAD! I hadn't even thought about that! I am such a shmuck! Thank you for that little heads-up! :hairraise You're welcome. It always pays to be aware of all the ways a troublemaker can do their thing. After all, it is a LOT easier to start a nasty rumor than it is to cast a spell. Plus, with the rumor, there are always SO many people anxious to help spread it! "sigh"

[~Elise~]

Ain't it the truth!

[paygun]

That's an interesting question. If by priestly you mean someone who has their doo doo all in one sock, for me that's the only type of person I would look to for guidance in spiritual matters in the first place. If they seem like a different person when they put on their clergy hat, I'd question if they are following their own teachings. I don't see how someone could have their act together during worship or practice and not otherwise unless it was literally an act.

If by priestly you mean someone who gives you that guru vibe, I've never met someone who gave that guru vibe that wasn't trying hard to do it. After a little observation it shows that they're trying to be someone they're not. Without fail those people always wanted something from me like money or for me to follow them like a cult leader.

If you find that this person you have this clergy relationship with is a bad person in some way or another, but feel that they're "powerful" and could teach you a lot, then they've already taught you by example all they have to teach. People like that have only one kind of "power" and that's the power to fool people. People who suck are not powerful magicians, they're powerful con artists.

The biggest pitfall of any study of the occult is delusion, not calling up the wrong demon or lighting the wrong color candle. Don't allow greed for some kind of power to cloud your judgement of why you're studying to being with. The arcane knowledge that a lot of these nutjobs would have you believe in is inside of you already. Go your own way if necessary, you'll be better off for it by a long shot.