Cyber-Cheating?

[Aengus McTeague]

Here's the situation.
In r/l, I'm single, and choose to be for now. Online, I have a wonderful, intimate relationship with a woman from Australia that is very emotionally close, but doesn't include cyber-sex. That's out of choice, we've discussed it, but I'm still emotionally in knots from my ex, and didn't want to risk mucking up the friendship I have with this woman.

I have recently, however, begun an extremely hot cyber-sex relationship with another woman. Her and I don't even talk publicly tha much on the board we belong to, but we started "playing" via pm's, and it spontaneously combusted into something incredibly erotic.

Problem, I feel guilty, like I'm cheating on my Australian freind, even though we've never met, and likely never will. Is this valid? Or just outdated morality?

Opinions/experiences?

[Theres]

really, i guess you have to decide. your morality is your own, and not subject to fashion or anyone else's opinion. that is the constant, in my opinion.
but there's nothing wrong with a little harmless play. so the question becomes, is it harming your friend if she doesn't find out? is it harming you keeping this secret? and these answers only you can provide.
sorry i couldn't be of more help.

[Myst]

I agree with Greenman that this is up to you.

But as a woman I would want to know if my "boyfriend" was fooling around with another woman, even on the internet, because then at least I'd know whether he and my seriousness of the relationship is the same. When I was seeing someone offline and online both knew about the other. I think your friend deserves to know about it.

[Psyche Ague]

Personally, I'm against telling your Austrailian friend about the other woman. While you may feel relieved and feel that you did the right thing, how do you think she'd feel to find this out? I would not want to know, especially since you probably will never meet her, as you say. She would only be upset and sad over this and may never speak to you again. I'm assuming that's not what you want and cyber sex...well, isn't real sex IMHO. It is up to you, however.

[Aengus McTeague]

Thanks, all, for your feedback. Your input has given me several new angles to ponder this from, which is all I can really ask.

BB

[Swanspirit]

How would you like to be the one "NOT KNOWING" just a thought ............
Love and light
Swannie

[Aengus McTeague]

I think, that in an online relationship, I would prefer not knowing. Actually even in a real relationship, until it gets to the point where promises of exclusivity and monogamy are made, I would prefer not to know. Hmmmm...so maybe I've just answered my own question.

*Aengus goes off to ponder a bit*

[Ravenz]

Actually, if you release the guilt, and be honest with your woman friend you will feel much better! Your lady friend will still be there for you if she really wants the online relationship the two of you already have, and she should admire your honesty! :ahhhh:
:eyebrow:

Blessings :)

[Myst]

Originally posted by Aengus McTeague
Actually even in a real relationship, until it gets to the point where promises of exclusivity and monogamy are made,

Look it's the sign of a man, right there!

Maybe you'd like to think about her feelings here, and subtly asks about what she thinks of the seriousness of your relationship. If she thinks its serious then maybe you should let her know how you feel.

I can't believe someone thinks it's a better idea to lie to her knowing it would upset her - uhm, karma mean anything to you?

[Aengus McTeague]

Ummm, Myst, I would never lie about something like that, whether it was casual or not. Karma does mean something to me, so does my ability to look myself in the mirror and like the person I see.

But is not bringing something forward that has not been discussed the same as lying? I don't think so, and I'm really not trying to split hairs here. We have several mutual online friends we talk about, but she never asked me who else I write to, nor has she asked me not to cyber with anyone.

Of the two women, my Australian friend is definitely the more important to me. She is, in many ways, a soulmate; we bonded almost immediately. I don't want to do anything to hurt her. If we were cybering, or if she had asked me not to do so with anyone else, the situation would be different.

My cyber friend and I don't even have that much in common except the cyber-sex. A mutual affection and respect, but nothing deeper. But I won't deny that she is filling a very real void in my life right now, and I in hers. Just because I'm choosing to be single in real life, doesn't mean that my body has shut down and died.

I will admit that I'm hoping I can have it both ways here. I am also aware that while online relationships, online sex are different from their real life counterparts. That there are two real women involved, with real feelings. I treasure both of them in very different ways.

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" Is it harming her to not disclose that which she has never asked? I guess that's the central question for me.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Aengus McTeague
Ummm, Myst, I would never lie about something like that, whether it was casual or not. Karma does mean something to me, so does my ability to look myself in the mirror and like the person I see
...
"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" Is it harming her to not disclose that which she has never asked? I guess that's the central question for me.

I didn't say YOU said that, I said I can't believe someone did, just to clarify :)

And yes it could be breaking the Rede if you didn't tell her, IMHO, even if she didn't ask. If she has the belief that you two are exclusive because you haven't said otherwise you are letting her hold onto that wrong belief. She could be denying people in real life or online that she likes, thinking that you would not approve of it. She could be assuming you're exclusive because you haven't said otherwise.

If you know it would hurt her feelings to know what you are doing, and you are still doing it, yes to me that is harming her. You could be holding her in a relationship that she doesn't need to be in. You can continue to say that's her fault for assuming, not yours, but if you really care about her then her feelings will mean more then whether or not you don't want to get in a fight. the fact that you said you felt guilty for this in the first place is very telling. Obviously you think it would hurt her feelings.

That's why I left the suggestion that you bring it up with her, and if she thinks you guys are exclusive, you can tell her otherwise. If she doesn't, no harm done. Either way, the truth is out.

It reminds me of the kid who left grill cheese in the radiator in grade 4. Did anyone ask him if he did it? Nope. But did he get away with not telling anyone when they found out it was him? Uh no.

[Swanspirit]

and it isnt sexual........ then what is the problem...........??? If your friend is truly a friend .. why cant you
#1 all be friends
#2 at least tell the "soulmate" so she can be happy for you
# if she isnt a friend and is MORE than that in some unspoken way ....... then you need to clarify........
and dont think hearts cant be broken on the net........ they most assuredly can....... the only difference is the distance......

and an emotional commitmment is real......even if it is on the net....... and by CHOOSING who you dont want to hurt..... you are choosing whom you are willing to hurt...... not terribly honest either ......
DISHONESTY by omission is dishonesty as much as telling an outright lie is.......
Does the woman you are having cyber sex with know about the australian??? does she know she is being used for sex ( it seems to me) or are there expectations......unspoken?
Love and light
Swannie

[Aengus McTeague]

Myst, SwanSpirit, I want to thank you both for the very thoughtfull dialogue. It is clear to me, that at the least I need to find out how my Australian friend feels about the subject. She is a friend, and more, and I am very aware that hearts CAN be broken on the net...I've seen it happen.

My cyber-sex friend is very aware of the nature of our relationship. She has a real life mate, and they have opened their relationship to include online play with others. One of the reasons she chose me to get involved with is that she wanted someone mature enough to understand that it was only play, and would never lead to a r/l meeting. So on that front my consience is clear.

It is the Australian I'm worried about. She really has come to mean a great deal to me. So I guess I need to clarify this area of our relationship. I'm not sure that I agree that not discussing something is morally equivilant to lying, but I am sure that I would not lie to this woman. If she tells me the cybering would bother her, I will, of course, stop.

Ahhh, I HATE it when I run face first into my own cowardice....

[Theres]

or, my friend, your own strength. if you decide to 'come clean' with your true friend, then that is a strength that many would not face. i wish you luck, but i see a certain strength (the fact that you asked) that tells me this will work out alright.
peace

[Aengus McTeague]

Thanks, Greenman, I appreciate that.

[Myst]

I hope that this matter will end peacably for you and your lady friends, please let us know how it works out.

And I would like to commend you on realizing that your feelings for this lady are so important you can have the courage to do this. Honestly I have to tell you that I don't know you well yet, but this matter has already made me respect you. Greenman is right, you have shown strength in this.

[Aengus McTeague]

Thank you Myst. That means a lot. And yes, I will keep you "posted" as to how it turns out. I'm going to email my Australian friend tonight.

[Aengus McTeague]

For those who have been following this, this is an exerpt from an email I just sent my friend.


Something else I've been feeling bad about. Feel like I have'nt been completely honest with you lately. I've been cybering with someone for a few weeks now. It is just for play, on both sides. I know that I backed away from cybering with you, because I didn't want to risk spoiling what we have. You mean the world to me, your happiness is important to me, and I do feel like we have a type of commitment to each other.

If you want me to end the cyber with the other person, I will. If you want to again try to include cyber-sex in our relationship, I'm willing to try. Or if you think the whole thing is a non-issue, just let me know.

This whole thing is confusing the hell out of me. I've never had an online relationship before, I don't know what the rules are. Except that I believe honesty always counts, as does respect and caring.

So please, let me know your thoughts/feelings/desires on this. (including if you think I'm being a complete wanker about the whole thing)

I really have grown to love you, you know. My friends might not understand, but I think you do.
*The usual assortment of hugs, kisses, and pats*
Love,
Richard

Now, I wait.

[Semele]

Well, here would be my take on it, which you can of course take or leave. Talk to your soulmate and feel her out. If she seems interested in monogomy then end the other "fling". Up until now no words have been exchanged regarding it so you have no reason to tell her anything. If I were in her shoes I wouldn't necessarily want to know. However after the monogomy has been decided upon, then I would demand to know that you were faithful. Kind of funny how there are supposed to be separate rules for online stuff huh?!

[Semele]

DOH!! I should have read the second page! Well, good luck to you.

[Swanspirit]

YOu have simply been introspective.........
"Ahhh, I HATE it when I run face first into my own cowardice...."
You became embroiled in a situation in which you were uncomfortable....... YOU REALISED IT!!! you searched it out..... and hunted it down.... and confronted it ..... and dealt with it ! I dont see cowardice at all......but courage........and MOST importantly You took responsiblity for your own feelings.....and actions
You didnt ASSUME how someone would feel.. you are asking them.......directly ........
I have great admiration for what you are doing... it is the antithesis of what happened to me ...........
And Semele...... I agree ... you cannot imagine to what depth I agree....with....
"Kind of funny how there are supposed to be separate rules for online stuff huh?!"
I dont think the rules are different at all.... either you are honest.... or you are not....
Love and light
Swannie

[talamh]

i agree with Greenman.... sometimes the truth can be really really hard. But in my experience, it is not only the better way.. it is the only way.

You sound like a very kind and caring and ethical person, Aengus... and you are also willing to seriously consider other points of view. An open mind is a wonderful thing.. and sadly, all too rare. bb talamh

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Semele
Kind of funny how there are supposed to be separate rules for online stuff huh?!

;) Some people like to think they are different - my person thoughts are that they are not though. Coming from someone who met (and married) her love on the internet, I can assure everyone that online and offline are not that different - a relationship is a relationship whether it's online or not - the only difference is being able to physically reach out and touch someone. I would never consider cybering with someone, because cyber-sex to me is as intimate as sex in person. But that's just me. I think you did the honourable thing Aengus.

BB
Lilu

[Amora]

I have to give you a lot of credit Aengus! I ironically have something sort of similar happening to me... I have a cyber friend/relationship with a guy in Australia (must be that American attraction to Australians!) and we have gotten pretty intimate but I have neglected to tell him that I have a child from a previous relationship. I didn't think it would be a big deal...UNTIL I booked a flight to go see him in December... now I'm wondering how to spill the beans...considering we're talking about me not coming back to America... Wow...you are more couragous then me... Based on that I'm sure you'll turn out fine no matter what!

Best of luck!!!!!!

[Aengus McTeague]

Well, several people asked for an update.

My Australian friend basically said to go for it, have fun, she wasn't offended, bothered or jealous. She did allow that she would feel differently if it was someone she knew in r/l, or if my cyber-sex friend and I were romancing each other publicly on the boards.

Now here's the funny (or possibly pathetic) part. Since "coming clean", I haven't had the slightest desire to cyber with my other friend. I really hope that this is because I've realized the depth of my feelings for the Australian lady, and not because the whole cyber thing was based on the thrill of the forbidden.

Life (online and off) remains odd....and sometimes my own reactions and motivations are the oddest thing about it.

I want to thank everyone again for challenging my thinking on this, I do feel that telling the truth was the best thing...even if it took me a bit to get there.

And Amora...good luck! My feeling is that you should tell him before you meet. As a man, I think I would appreciate just hearing it plain and simple, just like you told us, that you didn't think it would be a big deal until you realized how serious you were getting. I can tell you that knowing that my Australian freind has three kids (she told me pretty early on), doesn't change how I feel about her a bit.

[Socharis]

Originally posted by Greenman
really, i guess you have to decide. your morality is your own, and not subject to fashion or anyone else's opinion. that is the constant, in my opinion.
but there's nothing wrong with a little harmless play. so the question becomes, is it harming your friend if she doesn't find out? is it harming you keeping this secret? and these answers only you can provide.
sorry i couldn't be of more help.

I agree :thumbsup:

[Amora]

Originally posted by Aengus McTeague

And Amora...good luck! My feeling is that you should tell him before you meet. As a man, I think I would appreciate just hearing it plain and simple, just like you told us, that you didn't think it would be a big deal until you realized how serious you were getting. I can tell you that knowing that my Australian freind has three kids (she told me pretty early on), doesn't change how I feel about her a bit.

Thank for the luck and the advice! I'm really glad everything worked out for you!!!!!!! And I'm relieved to hear from a mans point of view that finding out about your friends children didn't change your view on anything...I wish all guys felt that way!!!!!!!

Oh, and you never know when you just might get to meet her! Australia's not that far away! :thumbsup:

[Illuminatus]

I never thought I'd say this, but swanspirit is right! Problem solved.

But please, continue with the updates because quite frankly I find this tawdry tale of secrecy and betrayed emotion to be quite intriguing! It's like a 21st century soap.

- Ill

Oh, BTW, I've cybered a couple of times (actually with a few australians, because they were the only ones on ICQ when I stumbled in drunk 3am saturday nights in college... but that's another story for another day)... it got old. Doesn't really compare to r/l, and it's inherently kind of fake. You'll realise this on your own, sooner or later.

[Swanspirit]

SAY IT AINT SO MA............ Illuminatus said I was right ???????????? ok ok ... I can live with this ....... when the hyperventilation is over ....... just must remember to hold the little brown rebreathing bag..................
hehehe
and now TAAADAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH BRRrrrrp
( old trumpet ) ILLUMINATUS IS RIGHT TOOOOOOOOO what IS the world coming to???
Cybering ........ even with someone YOU think you LUUUHV welllllll:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :huh: :huh: it just isnt the same :ghost: :ghost: I dont care how much pap you feed each other about how spiritual it all it LOL .........it isnt the same as having the person there holding you .....
as a matter of fact ... I THINK that is what we have bodies infused with spirit for.....to actually touch each other .......but I am getting OT here ...........
Cheating is cheating is cheating....... in cyber space or not ........ I am glad you can communicate with your friend......... and I am sure you DONT want to hear my little soap opera with drama queen included.... LOL I dont even want to revisit that B movie...... besides I think the back of her hand is still stuck to her forehead .........
Love and Light
Swannie