Pagan Clergy-where do we need clergy?

[MorningDove030202]

The issue of Pagan Clergy has been talked about in this thread:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=69478

For the puropose of this topic, I am defining Pagan Clergy as: Clergy of a particular tradition (not one size fits all clergy), that is not paied but does accept donations for services.

Edit: What's the role of clergy outside the scope of their tradition? What should they be doing for all Pagans, not just their tradtion?

The places I feel where having Pagan Clergy is useful (in no particular order):
(Edited to include new ideas)

1)handfastings, funerals, coming of age ceremonies (including baby blessings)
2)pagan military chaplins
3)Pastorial Counceling: such as Hospital visitations for the ill, grief counceling, adiction recovery etc
4) Prison ministry
5) Interfaith Outreach
6) Teaching/Training Pagans in leadership skills
7)Secular Outreach: such as Pagan Pride Day

Do you agree? Disagree? Any other place where Pagan Clergy might be useful, beyond the scope of their own tradition?

Dove

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, in my opinion, you've left out the most important and central job of ANY clergy, and that is serving as a religious leader and mentor. It's all well and good to have performs rites of passage and charitable works on the side, but the whole point of being clergy is leading ritual and mentoring others who want to learn about the religion.

I don't buy all this stuff about everyone being equal in paganism and not needing any leaders and hierarchy is bad etc. etc. etc. Say what you will, the fact is that there will ALWAYS be people who know more than you, and people who know less than you. A clergyperson is someone who has more knowledge and experience in the religion than you, and is therefore more qualified to run a ritual. Running a ritual involves a lot more than coming up with a good idea, waving a knife around, and saying some words. You also need skills and practice at holding and shaping ritual energy, and focusing the group energy towards the single intent. It's not something just anyone can do.

The purpose of a good religious mentor is to ensure that ritual is conducted in a safe and productive fashion, and to teach those that are interested how they can conduct ritual in a safe and productive fashion. Yes, paganism (to speak generally) is a religion of equals, but even in equals there are people who are more knowledgeable and experienced, and it would be pig-headed of us not to recognize their experience and attempt to learn from it.

[DebLipp]

Well, clergy don't belong in 12 step programs unless they are in recovery themselves. There are no clergy of other religions officiating at 12 step meetings. The steps call for each person in recovery to understand "God" in his or her own way; it should not have religious sponsorship.

I think you have omitted pastoral counseling as a general category. It can include things like hospital visits and bereavement counseling but it can fill all sorts of other needs.

You've also omitted baby blessings, community outreach (you have interfaith outreach, which is great, but not secular outreach), and counsel for the dying.

[MorningDove030202]

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear, but I mean what's the role of clergy outside the scope of their tradition? What should they be doing for all Pagans, not just their tradtion?
Dove



Well, in my opinion, you've left out the most important and central job of ANY clergy, and that is serving as a religious leader and mentor. It's all well and good to have performs rites of passage and charitable works on the side, but the whole point of being clergy is leading ritual and mentoring others who want to learn about the religion.

I don't buy all this stuff about everyone being equal in paganism and not needing any leaders and hierarchy is bad etc. etc. etc. Say what you will, the fact is that there will ALWAYS be people who know more than you, and people who know less than you. A clergyperson is someone who has more knowledge and experience in the religion than you, and is therefore more qualified to run a ritual. Running a ritual involves a lot more than coming up with a good idea, waving a knife around, and saying some words. You also need skills and practice at holding and shaping ritual energy, and focusing the group energy towards the single intent. It's not something just anyone can do.

The purpose of a good religious mentor is to ensure that ritual is conducted in a safe and productive fashion, and to teach those that are interested how they can conduct ritual in a safe and productive fashion. Yes, paganism (to speak generally) is a religion of equals, but even in equals there are people who are more knowledgeable and experienced, and it would be pig-headed of us not to recognize their experience and attempt to learn from it.

[MorningDove030202]

You don't think that clergy should be doing things like this:
http://www.witchschool.com/campus/recovery.asp ?

Dove



Well, clergy don't belong in 12 step programs unless they are in recovery themselves. There are no clergy of other religions officiating at 12 step meetings. The steps call for each person in recovery to understand "God" in his or her own way; it should not have religious sponsorship.

I think you have omitted pastoral counseling as a general category. It can include things like hospital visits and bereavement counseling but it can fill all sorts of other needs.

You've also omitted baby blessings, community outreach (you have interfaith outreach, which is great, but not secular outreach), and counsel for the dying.

[DebLipp]

You don't think that clergy should be doing things like this:
http://www.witchschool.com/campus/recovery.asp ?

Dove

Actually, no I don't. The presenter is listed as a Friend of Bill's, and that's great, and that's his qualification to lead a meeting, and the only qualification that anyone needs. People who are clergy in A.A. or any other 12 step program just happen to be clergy.

Tradition Three—The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

...and

Tradition Twelve—Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

So someone with professional qualifications, such as clergy, has no primacy in a 12 step meeeting.

[cheddarsox]

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear, but I mean what's the role of clergy outside the scope of their tradition? What should they be doing for all Pagans, not just their tradtion?
Dove

Not much, I guess in general situations like hospital, military chaplain, or in the case of a tragedy, all clergy should pretty much be ready to step up as general counselor, leader in prayer, soother etc. And of course, they will be looked to as an example of "their kind" so I guess they should be prepared to field questions and expect their behavior, dress, etc will be scrutinized. But I don't see pagan clergy as having any special role for all pagans beyond what culture tends to expect from any other clergy...basically to be a good hearted, caring person willing to step up when needed.


cheddar

[MorningDove030202]

Did you miss this part?

Who: Rev. Dr. Rod D. is a pagan in recovery with 17 years experience, and is involved in 'service work' at various levels. He is an Ordained Wiccan Priest of the Correllian Nativist Church International, Inc. Rev. Dr. Rod was educated and worked as a Counselor in the Alcoholism/drug field before moving on to the ministry. He presents this program in answer to the problems he faced himself as a 'pagan' in a predominantly christian program.

Don't you think that most 12 step programs are going to be "to Christian" for many of us Pagans. He's writing a book for pagans in recovery to help them threw a typical 12 step program that is Christian Focused. This is something I feel qualified clergy should be doing. Perahpse when his book is published, other pagan clergy can get his book read it, and offer it as a resource to Pagan in Recovery. I think this is definatly something any Pagan Clergy could do. Just because a Pagan Clergy person hasn't been threw adiction recovery doesn't mean they shouldn't be helping those pagans who are.

Dove




Actually, no I don't. The presenter is listed as a Friend of Bill's, and that's great, and that's his qualification to lead a meeting, and the only qualification that anyone needs. People who are clergy in A.A. or any other 12 step program just happen to be clergy.

Tradition Three—The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

...and

Tradition Twelve—Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

So someone with professional qualifications, such as clergy, has no primacy in a 12 step meeeting.

[DebLipp]

Did you miss this part?

Who: Rev. Dr. Rod D. is a pagan in recovery with 17 years experience, and is involved in 'service work' at various levels. He is an Ordained Wiccan Priest of the Correllian Nativist Church International, Inc. Rev. Dr. Rod was educated and worked as a Counselor in the Alcoholism/drug field before moving on to the ministry. He presents this program in answer to the problems he faced himself as a 'pagan' in a predominantly christian program.
Did you miss this part?


The presenter is listed as a Friend of Bill's, and that's great, and that's his qualification to lead a meeting, and the only qualification that anyone needs.


Don't you think that most 12 step programs are going to be "to Christian" for many of us Pagans.Yes, I do. Pagans in recovery can help address that problem. They don't have to be clergy. 12 step programs are NOT leader-driven or profession-driven, they are run by people in recovery. They say that all you need to start a meeting is a resentment and a coffee pot. :D Any Pagan can start a meeting, just like any other person of any other faith, or no faith, can. Considering it an area where clergy is needed violates the principles of 12 step recovery. I agree that Pagan input is needed in 12 steps programs, but clergy input, Pagan or otherwise, is not.


Just because a Pagan Clergy person hasn't been threw adiction recovery doesn't mean they shouldn't be helping those pagans who are.

Pastoral counseling, which I already mentioned, includes things like referrals for addicts. But 12 step recovery is based on the principal that ONLY a fellow addict can help an addict. Now, other people, other recovery programs, may disagree, but you specifically cited 12 step recovery, so that is what I was addressing. The clergyperson's role might be to suggest an individual get help, to intervene, or to refer them to meetings, but not to take any kind of official role in meetings.

[MorningDove030202]

I didn't realise that, and I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying he wasn't quailified.
So then I'll put recovery counceling under pastorial instead of making it its own number thingy.
Dove