Homosexuality and Paganism

[Toby Stimpson]

Hey All,

I am currently talking to a freidn who is feeling demoralized...and doubting himself when it coems to him being gay. He is gay, but he feels somewhat as though it is a bad thing and he gave me this.
http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/flsh_phobia.html . Now, reading soem of these quotes...Kevin carlyon, or more commonly known as 'King Kev' a pathetic egotist from england...but the others I am not familiar with. Now, a question...as far as I have seen and have experianced, the Pagan community as a whole has been mostly very accepting of the GLBTQ adherants. Whether they were gay teen wiccans, or the Lesbian Goddess worshippers...I have always experianced a great love and really a great acceptance of sexual minorities...since mainstream Paganism was built into the Feminist movement. Now, what do you think, do you think there is an antigay bias in Paganism, or do you think that these quotes are mostly by fringe writers...? Namaste

Tobias

[GalenaFaolan]

I've never heard of any of these people but it seems to me that they're just anti gay and using occult beliefs and making their own definition or something!! People like that tick me off, don't care who they are!
Personally, I've found the pagan community very accepting of everyone regardless of what their sexual preference is. Your friend should be proud of who he is!! Each person works through things at their own pace, but he shouldn't feel it's wrong or anything. You're born who you are and shouldn't let anyone make you feel less of a human for being you. I'm not saying he has to shout from the rooftops or anything but just know that he is who he is and doesn't need to be ashamed or anything.

[wolf]

A quick look at the rest of the site leads me to believe that the author is probably a ceremonial magician of some kind, and is gay. After two articles on the spirtual importance of anal intercourse, I was done reading his site.

I wouldn't put much credence in what he's presenting.

I have to go wash and dry my brain now.

[Kaija]

I remember a couple of years ago there was a guy in the US using the same general principals.. and he was pretty much ignored.. the group of people he spoke for basically abandoned him and said he was no longer affiliated with them.. It's pathetic really. *sigh*

I think most people have the male/female aspect in themselves.. If you cannot find it within, you will not find it without.. I am a Lesbian and do not focus on Goddesses alone.. I work as well with the masculine as the feminine.. (actually, I'm almost better with the male aspects)..

Just keep encouraging him to be himself.. there is no better person to be.

[Pandoras]

I think the Pagan community is very accepting of the GLBT community and I've never seen anything like that website, but I can see how some GLBT people might feel disenfranchised by Paganism.

As it is, many Pagans are nature-oriented and celebrate Sabbats based on the sexual relationship between the God and Goddess. I don't think there's much we can do about that, but many Pagans take this further, subscribing to a polarized view of of energies, describing some energies as male/masculine and others as female/feminine. I think that this female/male polarity enshrines the heterosexual human relationship as the basic pattern of all being and makes invisible the realities of GLBT people. I think that taking one particular form of sexual union as the model for the whole is unfairly limiting, especially in a world in which power and status are awarded according to gender and sexual preference and are grounds for either privilege or oppression.

[AmbivalentMirage]

As it is, many Pagans are nature-oriented and celebrate Sabbats based on the sexual relationship between the God and Goddess. I don't think there's much we can do about that, but many Pagans take this further, subscribing to a polarized view of of energies, describing some energies as male/masculine and others as female/feminine. I think that this female/male polarity enshrines the heterosexual human relationship as the basic pattern of all being and makes invisible the realities of GLBT people. I think that taking one particular form of sexual union as the model for the whole is unfairly limiting, especially in a world in which power and status are awarded according to gender and sexual preference and are grounds for either privilege or oppression.

Actually, I have no problem with masculine/feminine dichotomy, as I don't believe it's crucial to Pagan beliefs. We often say "all gods are one", which means that we believe in a deity that is both masculine and feminine and everything in between. I do not feel disinfranchised by the standard God-Goddess concept, because I do not see myself as "masculine". I'm an androgyne and I feel that my soul, after many female incarnations, leans towards the feminine persuasion... but still is somewhat masculine. Besides, we are a growing and changing race... and, with time, we will make new myths that reflect our needs. Maybe, one day, there will be decent myths about transgendered and transexual people, as well as gay and lesbian individuals. We can hope. :)

As for your friend, just keep encouraging him. There are a lot of guilt and self-worth issues that come along with realizing you are gay - especially if your family isn't all that thrilled with it. What he needs now is acceptance and love... which you are ready to give. :)

[SilentDreams]

Many of those quotes are from several years ago. Information about homosexuality doesn't seem to be as avalible then as it is now. If I'm remembering correclty many people(open-minded or not) had less information and were often informed of how it was a "perversion" so I can't be surprised many people, including pagans took the bad information and ran with it. I'd like to see how all of these authors now view homosexuality, I'm betting a few if not many of them have changed their beliefs.

[Greybird]

I've known plenty of feminine men, and plenty of masculine women, as well as plenty of people of both sexes who had their masculinity/femininity in dynamic balance. If a genuine male and a genuine female were absolutely required for Wicca, then please explain solitaries. The point is that a person can thoroughly explore both the masculine and the feminine within themselves regardless of either their gender or sexual preference. The masculine/feminine duality isn't a penis/vagina duality - that is a dangerous oversimplification.

[Ben Gruagach]

The modern Pagan community is diverse enough that you will find there are homophobes, racists, people who are sexist (against either men or women), whatever. As a whole, though, the Pagan community does tend to be very accepting. Just don't let the few bad apples spoil it for the rest!

Phil Hine (the guy who's website was linked) is a longstanding and quite honourable ceremonial magickian/ chaos magickian who has been active in the modern occult and Pagan community for quite a while. The specific page that was linked earlier in this thread was Phil's way of showing that there are stupid people even in our community. He calls the page "Occult Homophobia - Some Choice Quotes" after all -- if he were homophobic himself he would not call it homophobia but would put some sort of positive-sounding name on it. The stuff about sex and occultism is actually just a small part of his website. His main thing is chaos magick but a lot of his stuff is very useful to other occult or magickal groups too. (I particularly like his stuff on magickal groups -- it's under the Writings menu.)

Homosexuality has been around as long as there has been sex -- long before humans appeared on the scene! We know that animals engage in same-sex activity just like humans do. And humans have been doing it since before recorded history. There are actually lots and lots of myths that mention or include homosexual themes if you look for them. Christopher Penczak has an article in the latest issue of PanGaia that talks about gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered deities and myths, and includes a list of some of the standard books that are available on the topic. "Cassell's Encyclopedia of Queer Myth, Symbol, and Spirit" is one of the best and is worth looking for. Christopher Penczak also has a book out called "Gay Witchcraft" although I haven't read it.

Coming out is tough though. The best advice for anyone who is going through that phase is to get in touch with local gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people and ask them about their stories. It's often suprising for new people to realize that there are others who really do know what you're going through because they have had the exact same experiences and feelings themselves. Check the local phone book for gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered support groups or community groups and then contact them even if they're not the exact right one you're looking for -- they can usually put you in touch with the right group for you in the area. Many colleges and universities (and even high schools these days) also have groups that can help put you in touch with supportive people.

Being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered is nothing to be ashamed of -- just like there's no reason to be ashamed if you are a different race or ethnic background to the person who lives next door. There will always be bigots, but we don't have to let them tell us how we should feel about ourselves.

(And just so it's clear, I'm a gay Wiccan. I'm also in a happy long-term relationship with a same-sex partner -- we celebrate our seventeenth year together this autumn!)

[BlueMoon13]

The modern Pagan community is diverse enough that you will find there are homophobes, racists, people who are sexist (against either men or women), whatever. As a whole, though, the Pagan community does tend to be very accepting. Just don't let the few bad apples spoil it for the rest
I could'nt agree more. However the door swings both ways. I have a good friend who was initiated into a coven and then discovered that they only wanted bis or gays in the coven, but wanted her because her magic was strong and they thought they could eventually "turn" her, and when she would'nt her life was made a living hell, and was banned,banished,etc. _tsk_ Can you imagine the outcry there would be among gay pagans if this happened to one of them in a "straight" coven :hairraise !!
My advice would be to find out if sexuality is or is not an issue with a particular group that you may practice with BEFORE you get involved in ritual with them. :huddle: Personally, I don't think it should be. Male and female is used as a metaphor for polarities, just as is black andwhite,right and left,etc. and when people use the m/f literally as a nod to sexuality they cloud their minds as to the true meaning :ack:

[Ben Gruagach]

I could'nt agree more. However the door swings both ways. I have a good friend who was initiated into a coven and then discovered that they only wanted bis or gays in the coven, but wanted her because her magic was strong and they thought they could eventually "turn" her, and when she would'nt her life was made a living hell, and was banned,banished,etc. _tsk_ Can you imagine the outcry there would be among gay pagans if this happened to one of them in a "straight" coven :hairraise !!
My advice would be to find out if sexuality is or is not an issue with a particular group that you may practice with BEFORE you get involved in ritual with them. :huddle: Personally, I don't think it should be. Male and female is used as a metaphor for polarities, just as is black andwhite,right and left,etc. and when people use the m/f literally as a nod to sexuality they cloud their minds as to the true meaning :ack:

I really hope that no one takes that particular group of gay and bisexual Pagans as representative of the rest of us who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered and Pagan. They do NOT represent me or any of the queer friends I have!

Trying to "turn" someone is a disgusting assault no matter who is doing it.

[Darkdale]

Homosexuality is an individual decision - it shouldn't have anything to do with religion - but I must say, paganism treats homosexuals better than any other group of religions.

[DebLipp]

There was a lot of homophobia in Wicca in the early days. This resulted from a lot of things including (a) individual bigotry, (b) social norms—society as a whole was much more homophobic, and (c) an imperfect understanding by Westerners of some Eastern concepts like karma and yin-yang polarity.

As far as I know, homophobia has completely disappeared from the Traditional Wiccan circles in which I hang out. Gay men, in particular, are incredibly prominent in Alexandrian and Gardnerian Craft.

That said, some gay people suffer from an imperfect understanding of Traditional Wiccan ritual.

This quote: "What people have to remember is that Wicca; man and woman, God and Goddess is a fertility cult - a heterosexual fertility cult.", which is the first one on the cited page, is essentially correct. So is the one that follows it. The male-female mysteries of Traditional Wicca are not sex mysteries or love mysteries, they are fertility mysteries. If gay couples were excluded from sex and love mysteries, that would be homophobic. But reproduction is a heterosexual act (among higher species, anyway) and everyone, GLBT or Str8, came into this world the same way.

I think Wicca got into trouble in the 70s, doing rituals saying "This is the magic of Love" which sounds much better than "This is the magic of reproduction" but is less accurate. People took it at face value and said that love should include ALL love. And they're right, love does and should.

In Elements of Ritual I give readers a choice about what the meaning of the cakes & wine is, and let them know that if it's fertility, then there's a heterosexual bias, but if it's love or pleasure, there isn't, and then they can choose. But you can't do a fertility rite based on a gay relationship. My lesbian friend just got back from the gynecologist and she assures me I'm right. ;)

Now, there's another level of this, which is the conversation about polarity. Polarity is a complex interplay between yin and yang. It is never static and it is never confined to one place. I've made a quick illustration of this: In the yin yang to the left, yin is blue, because yin is always dark in relation to yang. But it's the relationship that's significant. On the right, the very same shade of blue is yang, because the relationship has changed.

There's always polarity, it's dynamic. You can choose to symbolize polarity as Goddess/God and therefore male/female, and some Wiccan Traditions have gender rules about how the deities will be symbolized; i.e. yin/female is always symbolized by a woman. But other groups allow either gender to take either role (leaving out transgendered or androgynous roles which are another matter entirely).

In my experience, biological males have a male polar energy which interacts well with a biological female polar energy, and this doesn't depend on orientation. It's the Will & Grace phenomenon—there's a male/female energy that's just lovely and that works, and it isn't about orientation. I've worked with enough gays and lesbians and straight men and straight women to be sure of this, but I haven't worked with enough transgendered people to know how that affects things.

It's also true that any two people can generate polar energy together, because as with my illustration, they always have a polar energy. I worked well with a straight woman at one point, and we had some definite polar juice. But I think it's reasonable for people to choose to work with gender-based polarity, if they're comfortable with that, and I don't think that's reason enough to call them homophobic.

[DebLipp]

Homosexuality is an individual decision - it shouldn't have anything to do with religion - but I must say, paganism treats homosexuals better than any other group of religions.
Homosexuality isn't a "decision." But I take your point.

[BlueMoon13]

I really hope that no one takes that particular group of gay and bisexual Pagans as representative of the rest of us who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered and Pagan. They do NOT represent me or any of the queer friends I have!

Trying to "turn" someone is a disgusting assault no matter who is doing it.
Thank you! _twohorns_ I was just using her experience to back up your admonition about not letting a few bad apples spoil the barrel for everyone, no matter what the predominant flavor of the barrel is :bigblue:

[Darkdale]

Homosexuality isn't a "decision." But I take your point.

Well, the homosexuals that I am aquainted with, all say that it is a decision. I believe my heterosexuality to be a decision as well. :) But - as we cannot prove it one way or the other, I think we can be satisfied that we're both on the side of tolerance here. ;)

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, the homosexuals that I am aquainted with, all say that it is a decision. I believe my heterosexuality to be a decision as well. :) But - as we cannot prove it one way or the other, I think we can be satisfied that we're both on the side of tolerance here. ;)

The only decision is whether you fight what you are, or accept what you are. It is also possible to do things that go against your basic attractions, but that does not mean you have "switched" -- merely that you forced yourself to do something you're not naturally inclined to do.

The only ones who truly have a choice about whether they want to stick to just one gender, and who really do feel an attraction regardless which one they choose, are bisexuals.

Perhaps the people you've encountered are bisexual, not homosexual.

[Pandoras]

I guess I'm in the minority; I don't adhere to the polarized view of energies. I don't describe some energies as male/masculine and others as female/feminine. I don’t identify femaleness and maleness with specific set of qualities and predispositions. Any quality assigned to one divine gender can elsewhere be found in its opposite. If we say, for example, “Male energy is aggressive,” I can easily find aggressive goddesses without thinking hard. Am I misunderstanding the concept?

Oh, and as an aside, I strongly disagree with the idea that homosexuality is a choice.

[AmbivalentMirage]

I guess I'm in the minority; I don't adhere to the polarized view of energies. I don't describe some energies as male/masculine and others as female/feminine. I don’t identify femaleness and maleness with specific set of qualities and predispositions. Any quality assigned to one divine gender can elsewhere be found in its opposite. If we say, for example, “Male energy is aggressive,” I can easily find aggressive goddesses without thinking hard. Am I misunderstanding the concept?

Oh, and as an aside, I strongly disagree with the idea that homosexuality is a choice.

No, I think you've got it quite right! Energy is energy and has no gender unless we assign it one - the same way that all magic uses energy and we assign its purpose. Look at goddesses like Kali-Ma - they are far more agressive than some male deities! As you said, any quality that can be found in "masculine" energy can be found in "feminine" energy, and vice-versa.

About homosexuality being a choice... I'm not sure this is debated anymore. Most people simply see it as a mental ilness (like schizophrenia - no one chooses to be schizophrenic) while others see it as biological. Believe it or not, I have gay friends who see homosexuality as being a result of environment and believe that people can be made "un-gay". Whatever. I wore heels and wanted to be a fairy when I was three. If anyone wants to try to undo 19 years to see if I am straight somewhere underneath, they can... but only if I can do my makeup during the sessions. ;) :lol:

I think that the posts on this thread show just how accepting the Pagan community really is. Unfortunately, as in any group, there will be some intolerant people. Our job is to simply continue being accepting and hope for those who aren't so much. :veryweird

[DebLipp]

I guess I'm in the minority; I don't adhere to the polarized view of energies. I don't describe some energies as male/masculine and others as female/feminine. I don’t identify femaleness and maleness with specific set of qualities and predispositions. Any quality assigned to one divine gender can elsewhere be found in its opposite. If we say, for example, “Male energy is aggressive,” I can easily find aggressive goddesses without thinking hard. Am I misunderstanding the concept?
I think you are misunderstanding the concept. The idea is that qualities are polar, yin-yang, plus-minus on the ends of the battery, and these poles can be called male-female. But that doesn't necessarily apply to real men and real women.

Also, in the yin-yang, we see that every pole contains its opposite, and that every pole is only polar in relation to its opposite.

So, we can place aggression on the yang/masculine side, and passivity on the yin/feminine side. That doesn't meant all males are aggressive and all females are passive. All aggression contains passivity, and vice versa, and all aggression is only aggressive when compared with passivity, and vice versa.

We are empowered by an understanding of polarity when it helps us understand how energy moves and how energy systems are created. We are empowered by an understanding of how people behave in relation to the energy flows within their own bodies. But none of this is meant to lock males and females in little boxes of behavior.

We can see testosterone as yang and estrogen as yin, but both men and women have both hormones, just in different balances. Women can express themselves in a testosterone-laden way, and men can express themselves in an estrogen-laden way. So when you say you can think of aggressive Goddesses, this is displaying a blending of energies, and there is nothing in understanding or working with polar energy that denies such blends. We are all blends.

[DebLipp]

About homosexuality being a choice... I'm not sure this is debated anymore. Most people simply see it as a mental ilness (like schizophrenia - no one chooses to be schizophrenic) while others see it as biological.
I think there are very FEW people who still see homosexuality as a mental illness. Certainly the American Psychiatric Association stopped classifying it that way about 30 years ago.

[Queenorivers]

this is the most stupid one "Homosexuals are not human" why? We see them, they have human bodies. Why not? Its just pathertic

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, it has been my experience that there is no real bias against homosexuality within Paganism in general. One might derive heterosexism from some of the Wiccan polar symbology, but certainly not homophobia.

Growing up Pagan, I always had GLBT people around me. I don't know if my experience is location-dependent, but there are several GLB's in my family of covens. My brothers' godfathers are both gay. Neither has expressed anything, to my knowledge, about feeling unwelcome or anything similar. I, personally, haven't found Paganism to be unwelcoming or restrictive about my sexuality, rather I've found it quite liberating.

Given my experience, I'd treat such arguments as odd fringe beliefs and not common among Pagans in general.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

ETA: Though it is true that whenever you have any group of people, you'll get some racists, and some bigots, and some homophobes... it's just a matter of statistics... I don't think the ideology of Paganism promotes homophobia, though...

[Darkdale]

The only decision is whether you fight what you are, or accept what you are. It is also possible to do things that go against your basic attractions, but that does not mean you have "switched" -- merely that you forced yourself to do something you're not naturally inclined to do.

The only ones who truly have a choice about whether they want to stick to just one gender, and who really do feel an attraction regardless which one they choose, are bisexuals.

Perhaps the people you've encountered are bisexual, not homosexual.

No. I'm pretty sure they're gay. There is absolutely nothing that makes someone gay or straight. There's no instinct. There's no gene. It's a choice. I don't think people should feel ashamed that they've chosen a homosexual lifestyle. If that is what they want to do, they should be fine with that. *shrugs* There are many gay activists who proudly admidt that homosexuality was their choice... I can't understand why people are still hiding behind the "I was born this way" justification. You don't need to justify your sexual preference.

[Ben Gruagach]

No. I'm pretty sure they're gay. There is absolutely nothing that makes someone gay or straight. There's no instinct. There's no gene. It's a choice. I don't think people should feel ashamed that they've chosen a homosexual lifestyle. If that is what they want to do, they should be fine with that. *shrugs* There are many gay activists who proudly admidt that homosexuality was their choice... I can't understand why people are still hiding behind the "I was born this way" justification. You don't need to justify your sexual preference.

The definition of homosexual is a person who is only sexually attracted to people of the same gender (and that defines me and most of the gay men I know.) A person who finds they are sexually attracted to both genders, even if they are mostly attracted to one, are bisexual. People who are attracted only to the opposite sex are heterosexual.

There are people who self-identify as gay or lesbian (or heterosexual) who did make a choice but do feel attractions for the other gender -- and these people are bisexual, not homosexual. There's nothing wrong with it. Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s it was common in the lesbian community in particular for some people to be what they called "political lesbians" who were women who called themselves lesbians but who were not exclusively sexually attracted to women, or who were not sexually attracted to women at all (they were heterosexual) but who chose to self-identify as lesbian mostly for political or cultural reasons rather than sexual orientation reasons.

I do not doubt that some people choose to be gay or lesbian -- but for many of us, there is no choice involved. I am a perfect example.

The Kinsey scale (explained on the web at places like this (http://www.lgbtcampus.org/resources/training/kinsey_scale.html)) describe sexual orientation as a spectrum rather than a binary (exclusively hetero or exclusively homo) thing. I'm a Kinsey 6, and I have no doubt that there are Kinsey 0 heterosexuals out there too. But for anyone who is a Kinsey 1 through 5 -- those people do have at least a little bit of choice about how they want to go with their selection of partners.

[DebLipp]

There is absolutely nothing that makes someone gay or straight. There's no instinct. There's no gene. It's a choice.
Given how little we still know about our own genetic makeup, you have no basis for making this claim. A difference in the sense of smell between gay and straight men made the news just this week. That's physical, and probably inborn. We are just beginning to learn about brain chemicals, about the effects of hormone balance, and about the myriad physiological components that make up a human being. The physical-psychological interactions of the brain are still largely a mystery.

Given all of that, it's outrageous to claim that it's an absolute certainty that orientation is a choice and not inborn. Certainly choice is a component for some people, as Ben describes, and certainly the jury is still out on how much is biological and what form it takes.

It's also insulting to say that people who believe they were born a particular way are "hiding behind" the statement. Maybe they are speaking the truth of their experience, which is their right.

[Darkdale]

The definition of homosexual is a person who is only sexually attracted to people of the same gender (and that defines me and most of the gay men I know.) A person who finds they are sexually attracted to both genders, even if they are mostly attracted to one, are bisexual. People who are attracted only to the opposite sex are heterosexual.

Defined that way, it would make a great deal of intuitive sense to conclude that it isn't a choice. However, I'm not quite sure I would define it that way. I don't think sex depends on attraction as the deciding factor. It doesn't really matter to me, so I'll drop it - obviously I can't prove that there isn't a gene that makes people gay... all I can say is that there is no evidence that such a gene exists. That being said, I'll step back out of the conversation... I really don't want to upset anyone and being that I'm not a homosexual, it really isn't my place to defend one position or the other. I'll leave that up to someone. :)

[Temptation]

I can't understand why people are still hiding behind the "I was born this way" justification. You don't need to justify your sexual preference.

They're not hiding behind it, it's not a justification. It's just the way it is. The vast majority of homosexuals were born homosexual; they can't help who they are anymore than I can help who I am. Sexual attraction to one or both sexes is a very primal thing, something we have very little control over.

I have been around gay men practically my entire life. The men in the business I work in are predominantly gay. Most of my male friends are gay. The only ones who have ever said that their homosexuality was a choice are the ones who define themselves as bisexual.

[Darkdale]

They're not hiding behind it, it's not a justification. It's just the way it is. The vast majority of homosexuals were born homosexual; they can't help who they are anymore than I can help who I am. Sexual attraction to one or both sexes is a very primal thing, something we have very little control over.

I have been around gay men practically my entire life. The men in the business I work in are predominantly gay. Most of my male friends are gay. The only ones who have ever said that their homosexuality was a choice are the ones who define themselves as bisexual.

Yes, but you still have literally no proof that homosexuality is genetic or instinctual. I'm just say, you sound certain...but you have no proof. :)

[Pandoras]

I think you are misunderstanding the concept. The idea is that qualities are polar, yin-yang, plus-minus on the ends of the battery, and these poles can be called male-female. But that doesn't necessarily apply to real men and real women.

Also, in the yin-yang, we see that every pole contains its opposite, and that every pole is only polar in relation to its opposite.

So, we can place aggression on the yang/masculine side, and passivity on the yin/feminine side. That doesn't meant all males are aggressive and all females are passive. All aggression contains passivity, and vice versa, and all aggression is only aggressive when compared with passivity, and vice versa...

After reading your explanation, I realize that it's not that I don't understand the concept. It's that I don't agree with it within the context you're using.

You are using the yin and yang model, an Eastern concept that is not part of my philosophy. I don't agree at all with these categorizations on yin and yang:

yin --> female, passive, dark, introversion, earth, flesh
yang --> male, aggressive, light, extroversion, heaven, spirit

I find the model patriarchal and sexist and far from balanced.

[Pandoras]

Yes, but you still have literally no proof that homosexuality is genetic or instinctual. I'm just say, you sound certain...but you have no proof. :)

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Studies are being released quite often and the research suggests that sexual orientation may be linked to a combination of genes located on non-sex chromosomes in the human body. It's not proof, I know, but it makes sense to me.

I really don't believe homosexuality is a choice. I mean, do you believe that you chose to be straight? Could you wake up tomorrow and decide to be gay and suddenly be attracted to men (and become a target of hate and violence)?

[Toby Stimpson]

Wow, I had no idea this would incite such a huge debate, but I enjoy it...respectful debate is always a good thing. Phil Hine replied to me after I wrote to him about the site...and he says that half of the sources on there were personal quotes from people he had talked to...one was his first High Priestess, and that all of these were from about twenty years ago. I asked him if they were all mostly English, and he said yes. I wonder if...now, there is much difference between English and American Pagan views on this subject. Since I moved away ten years ago I'm not much of an authority on England any more.

As for the debate on whether its a choice or if it's biological...I would 'say' that it was not a choice, but again we have no proof either way. i can only say as a gay male that I did not choose consciously or subconsciously whether to be physically attracted to other males, but that I strongly believe in the prenatal hormone theory. There is overwhelming evidence coming out though that human sexuality is a spectrum caused by so many differing environmental and genetic causes and that there may in fact be many subgroups of GLBTQ under the general terms. If this is true, then does it necessarily matter if it is a choice (which if you ask many Gays and Lesbians, they will tell you it isnt a choice), or soemthing else?

Now, I must comment on Pandoras' comment on Yin and Yang. I have always seen Yin and Yang as being the primordial energies...but energies that don't necessarily denote a sexist stereotype of what femininity is...or what masculinity is. I mean I have always seen the Human body as beign a mix of both Yin and Yang...no one Human having merely one energy in them. It would only be sexist, if for example the theory was supported with traditions that say 'only women are Yin, only men are Yang" In my own case, and the cases of many of my gay friends...there are many straight acting and many...if I may indulge, freiends with faggish qaulities (its all about reclaiming insults as power words :D). These individuals embody different unbalanced mxes of masculine and feminine energies...yet it fits them and makes them who they are. Anyways, thats just a thought...*shrugs*

Namaste

Tobias :awilly:

[Pandoras]

I wonder if...now, there is much difference between English and American Pagan views on this subject. Since I moved away ten years ago I'm not much of an authority on England any more.

I've never been to England. I don't think I even know any English people, but I vote that yes, certain views on anything Pagan are very different in England versus America. I've noticed in the books that I read written by English writers that they often make a distinction between Paganism and American Paganism.

I have always seen Yin and Yang as being the primordial energies...but energies that don't necessarily denote a sexist stereotype of what femininity is...or what masculinity is. I mean I have always seen the Human body as beign a mix of both Yin and Yang...no one Human having merely one energy in them. It would only be sexist, if for example the theory was supported with traditions that say 'only women are Yin, only men are Yang"

I don't see yin and yang as energies, but rather a philosophical concept that attempts to describe the universe as the balance of complementary opposites. I can agree with that part, even though I don't follow this philosophy. I agree with you that the model isn't sexist because it doesn't say 'only women are yin and only men are yang', but it does ascribe certain characteristics to each sex and that is sexist. It places the feminine together with darkness, the flesh, passivity, and introversion on the opposite scale of the masculine with light, the spirit, aggressiveness, and extroversion.

And the theory is supported by traditions that say only women are or should be this way and only men are or should be that way. Women have traditionally been thought of passive and men as aggressive. Medieval Christian thought followed that men had souls and women didn't (they are more of the flesh and the earth).

I think these ideas of light/dark, male/female, good/bad are simplistic ways of categorization that leads to breaks in things that shouldn't be separated. I see energy on a continuum, more complex and inclusive.

[dr_zeus440]

The only decision is whether you fight what you are, or accept what you are.
the "only" decision? seems like a pretty crucial decision to me. you choose who you sleep with, and are thus defined. whether or not youre attracted to men or women, if youre a man who sleeps with women, and everyone you know knows that you sleep with women, then, to them, you're straight. for all intents and purposes, you're straight. if your sexual orientation stays locked in your head for all eternity, then what are you, straight or gay?

"either you fight what you are or you accept what you are": i see where youre coming from. but, the way i see it, the concept of being is a very physical one, and intrinsically active. therefore, to me, if your actions as a man are sleeping with women, then you are straight. to me, whether youre a kinsey 6 or a kinsey 0, if youre a man who sleeps with women, then you are straight.

can a person theoretically (let alone actually) BE gay if he sleeps with women, he is known as a heterosexual by all who know him, he has the same perceptible actions as a straight man, though he is attracted, exclusively, to men? i think its an interesting philosophical question, and id like to know what you think.

That's physical, and probably inborn.
and that is an assumption. and a big one. did the study suggest that there was a difference in the sense of smell of a gay man and a straight man, or that there was a difference in their sense of smell that was derived from physical and inborn causes? because unless it was the latter, you cannot deduce the latter from that study. its just as possible that its because many gay men, due to their lifestyle, come into contact with synthetically created esters through hygiene products, cologne etc., which, sure, is an assumption, but is not impossible (it most certainly is a bad example, but it is an example nonetheless).

i think its a choice. all of life is a choice. if youre a man who is attracted to men but you dont want to be a homosexual, then you can make a choice to not sleep with men. even if there is a gene controlling it, that doesnt matter, because you can choose to either accept it or reject it, you said so yourself Ben, and base you actions upon your decision. and if you dont have a choice about who you sleep with, then youve just been raped and should see the police. you cannot be forced by your genes to do something. only the weak are slaves to themselves. and the weak are only weak because they choose to be.

this is one post for which i will apologise if it offends, but i feel extremely, extremely passionately about this. i dont want to grow up in a world where people are accepted for saying "its not my fault, its my genes". i think its a pathetic sidestepping of true acceptance, and is a smack in the face for anyone who really does want acceptance, for their choices. if youre accepted for this, youre not being accepted for your choices and your rights to be whoever you want to be, youre being accepted because youre presenting it as a reality that you have had no part in and that could not be any different. gay pride is not about being proud of your genes. its about being proud about your lifestyle, the lifestyle that youve CHOSEN, not been born into. its about homosexuality being a valid lifestyle not because its scientifically unavoidable for many, but because its your own particular choice and because you have a right to so choose. its about validation of this particular choice as a positive one, not as a scientifically unavoidable one. im sorry, but saying its all genetic is pandering to the "science is god" mentality to achieve acceptance, and i think its grotesque.

woah, i didnt know that i actually did feel THAT strongly about this, i intended to end the post way up there where it says "this is one post for which i will apologise if it offends..".

[Ben Gruagach]

I should have been more precise in my writing. Here's the modified, hopefully more precise version of that sentence which apparently hit a nerve:

The only decision about one's sexual orientation is whether you fight what you are, or accept what you are.

Of course there is a whole web of decisions that are interconnected with sexual orientation -- how one chooses to express that identity, what specific partners one will interact with, how important it is to your life in general. Whether you tell anyone or if you want to wear it like a badge of honour.

dr_zeus440's post brings to mind one very relevant question: if a person never has sex (remains a virgin and is celibate) then are they heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or what?

I'm homosexual myself, and I am homosexual regardless what types of sex acts I might or might not choose to participate in. I am homosexual even if I force myself to do some sort of sexual act with a member of the opposite sex (although if I enjoyed it I might consider that maybe I'm not a Kinsey 6 but perhaps a Kinsey 5 or somewhere else on the Kinsey scale.) And I am a homosexual even if I never have sex. Just like heterosexuals are still heterosexual even if they go through a "dry spell" or perhaps choose celibacy.

And I'd like to quash once and for all the myth that homosexuality is a "lifestyle." My lifestyle (the type of home I live in, what I do for a living, how I fill my leisure time) is not any different from my very heterosexual parents' lifestyle, or the lifestyle of my very heterosexual brothers, neighbors, or friends. And there are plenty of club kid fashionistas who are heterosexual even though if you saw them on the street you might think they were perfect homosexual stereotypes. Sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle."

[abrakus]

"Homosexuals are not human"
What the....? All the people I have met on here have been very accepting of homosexuality, and pretty much everything else for as long as its not hurting anyone. I don't like homophobic people or bigots for that matter. *Sorry, rant is over.*

[Xentor]

can a person theoretically (let alone actually) BE gay if he sleeps with women, he is known as a heterosexual by all who know him, he has the same perceptible actions as a straight man, though he is attracted, exclusively, to men? i think its an interesting philosophical question, and id like to know what you think.

This actually happens a lot, especially in cultures where homosexuality isn't accepted, a sin, punishable by society and / or law. The homosexuals tend to hide. Where can they hide? Either out of sight, like in a monestary, or in plain view, like a heterosexual relationship.

[dr_zeus440]

And I'd like to quash once and for all the myth that homosexuality is a "lifestyle." My lifestyle (the type of home I live in, what I do for a living, how I fill my leisure time) is not any different from my very heterosexual parents' lifestyle, or the lifestyle of my very heterosexual brothers, neighbors, or friends. And there are plenty of club kid fashionistas who are heterosexual even though if you saw them on the street you might think they were perfect homosexual stereotypes. Sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle."

i should probably clarify what i mean. i understand that the concept of a "gay lifestyle" as it is usually meant is a stereotype and a useless one at that. i simply mean that being a homosexual, engaging in sexual acts primarily with people of the same sex, is a lifestyle. lifestyle is the wrong word to use though, i just cant think of another at the moment, so substitute terminology as you see fit.

interesting you should raise the point of celibacy and virginity. im a virgin, and as such, i dont have a sexual orientation as yet. in my eyes anyway, but thats because i consider the act as the defining characteristic, not the impulse. anyway.

This actually happens a lot, especially in cultures where homosexuality isn't accepted, a sin, punishable by society and / or law. The homosexuals tend to hide.

i should clarify, i mean if said person exclusively sleeps with women but is exclusively attracted to men. i, personally, dont think hes gay because regardless of who he's attracted to, he sleeps with women (and by sleeps with i mean all the various acts association with sexual highjinks :D). its one thing to be a homosexual in the closet. its quite another to be an, albeit tortured (well, more than likely), straight man whos attracted exclusively to men.

[abrakus]

I've known gay men be married to women and have children but end up leaving them because they are gay. All because it's against a religion or its frowned upon, I don't agree with sleeping with the opposite sex if you are gay because that's just hurting someone. I know my family in particular aren't happy with me being gay, but I'd rather disagree with my family then lie to myself or my family. It justs get messy, having to lie all the time. It's the choices people make, I don't think you can choose whether your gay or not, but you can choose whether your going to accept it yourself or not. I fully accept I'm gay, and if people don't like it well tough. It's my choice.

[wolf]

interesting you should raise the point of celibacy and virginity. im a virgin, and as such, i dont have a sexual orientation as yet. in my eyes anyway, but thats because i consider the act as the defining characteristic, not the impulse. anyway.

Whether or not you've put it to use, you still have a sexual orientation. You know what/who your responsiveness is toward, even without field testing.

[Kaija]

the "only" decision? seems like a pretty crucial decision to me. you choose who you sleep with, and are thus defined. whether or not youre attracted to men or women, if youre a man who sleeps with women, and everyone you know knows that you sleep with women, then, to them, you're straight. for all intents and purposes, you're straight. if your sexual orientation stays locked in your head for all eternity, then what are you, straight or gay?

"either you fight what you are or you accept what you are": i see where youre coming from. but, the way i see it, the concept of being is a very physical one, and intrinsically active. therefore, to me, if your actions as a man are sleeping with women, then you are straight. to me, whether youre a kinsey 6 or a kinsey 0, if youre a man who sleeps with women, then you are straight.

can a person theoretically (let alone actually) BE gay if he sleeps with women, he is known as a heterosexual by all who know him, he has the same perceptible actions as a straight man, though he is attracted, exclusively, to men? i think its an interesting philosophical question, and id like to know what you think.


....

i think its a choice. all of life is a choice. if youre a man who is attracted to men but you dont want to be a homosexual, then you can make a choice to not sleep with men. even if there is a gene controlling it, that doesnt matter, because you can choose to either accept it or reject it, you said so yourself Ben, and base you actions upon your decision. and if you dont have a choice about who you sleep with, then youve just been raped and should see the police. you cannot be forced by your genes to do something. only the weak are slaves to themselves. and the weak are only weak because they choose to be.

this is one post for which i will apologise if it offends, but i feel extremely, extremely passionately about this. i dont want to grow up in a world where people are accepted for saying "its not my fault, its my genes". i think its a pathetic sidestepping of true acceptance, and is a smack in the face for anyone who really does want acceptance, for their choices. if youre accepted for this, youre not being accepted for your choices and your rights to be whoever you want to be, youre being accepted because youre presenting it as a reality that you have had no part in and that could not be any different. gay pride is not about being proud of your genes. its about being proud about your lifestyle, the lifestyle that youve CHOSEN, not been born into. its about homosexuality being a valid lifestyle not because its scientifically unavoidable for many, but because its your own particular choice and because you have a right to so choose. its about validation of this particular choice as a positive one, not as a scientifically unavoidable one. im sorry, but saying its all genetic is pandering to the "science is god" mentality to achieve acceptance, and i think its grotesque.

woah, i didnt know that i actually did feel THAT strongly about this, i intended to end the post way up there where it says "this is one post for which i will apologise if it offends..".

Okay, I was going to stay out of this.. (and yet, everytime I say this.. I cannot do it) Alright.. I am gay.. It was NOT a choice. I tried for YEARS to have an attraction to guys.. I had a boyfriend that I did sleep with.. but it was contrary to EVERY instinct in my body. Ultimately creating a suicidal impulse whenever I saw him. I may as well have been sleeping with my brother.. It felt WRONG, in every sense of the word. (well, not like Rape wrong.. ) I didn't choose this natural reaction, I wanted to be "normal", more than anything else.

Now I choose to be open about who I am attracted to. I have MANY male friends, but there is no attraction at all. Now that I have chosen to accept my natural instincts I don't have any hang ups about being around guys. I have had one real girlfriend, and that was years ago, but even just the thought of being with a guy that way feels wrong still. It has nothing to do with what I label myself.. if I was still sleeping with guys, I would still be attracted to girls.. I am not gay because I am sleeping with a girl, but because I LOVE girls. It's not even all about sex.. Even without the sex I couldn't have a close loving relationship with a male, I don't feel it.. When your instinct is love and not primarily sex then you can't justify it by purely physical means. I don't say "I was born this way" to justify anything.. I need NO justification. I don't blame anything or anyone for anything, I am what I am.. That's it. I don't make straight people justify themselves for their feelings, and for the most part nobody makes me justify mine. Now, do I choose to make others aware of this? Yes.. for many reasons.. Without visibility how do we meet others? Good way to be alone for the rest of your life. Without visibility you risk losing friends who think you hid it from them all along, and, people have no one that they see every day to think about when things like the Gay Marriage ammendment come up.. they see it as something so far fetched.. with images of 8 foot tall drag queens or Huge women who want all men dead (don't take either of those stereotypes as an insult.. but they are as far from the average resident of my town as you can imagine), but in truth there are gay people all around them who are not looking for anything outrageous. The stereotypes they see scare people.


And the truth is, it is widely found in the animal kingdom as well, and since that is purely instinct also.. the concept of choice is moot.. Animals don't choose it to be annoying.. or to stand out.. they just do what their instincts tell them to.

I don't know about the gene theory.. I don't think there is ONE answer. Nobody knows anyt hing right now.

[DebLipp]

I don't see yin and yang as energies, but rather a philosophical concept that attempts to describe the universe as the balance of complementary opposites.Yin-yang is a philosophical concept that attempts to describe the nature of energy, so it's both. :)

but it does ascribe certain characteristics to each sex and that is sexist.I disagree. First, ascribing characteristics to a sex isn't necessarily sexist. Some feminists do it (it's called "difference feminism"). Also, to say "feminine" is not to say "women." It doesn't ascribe yin to "women" but to the abstract concept of "feminine."

And the theory is supported by traditions that say only women are or should be this way and only men are or should be that way. Women have traditionally been thought of passive and men as aggressive. Medieval Christian thought followed that men had souls and women didn't (they are more of the flesh and the earth). Okay, I don't get how you can argue against a Chinese concept by using Medieval Christianity as an example. Medieval Christians had not even heard of yin-yang.

I think these ideas of light/dark, male/female, good/bad are simplistic ways of categorization that leads to breaks in things that shouldn't be separated. I see energy on a continuum, more complex and inclusive.I can see that. I don't have a problem with viewing energy that way, instead of in a polar way. I just don't think the case is strong that polarity is inherently sexist. In fact, when you use Christianity as an example, you more or less argue my point. Those traditions you speak about didn't treat women poorly because they believed in polar energy; Christians didn't; they treated women poorly because they were sexist.

Sexist societies can take non-sexist philosophies and use them as an excuse to oppress women. Non-sexist societies can take the same philosophies and use them differently.

[Pandoras]

I disagree. First, ascribing characteristics to a sex isn't necessarily sexist. Some feminists do it (it's called "difference feminism"). Also, to say "feminine" is not to say "women." It doesn't ascribe yin to "women" but to the abstract concept of "feminine."

Okay, I don't get how you can argue against a Chinese concept by using Medieval Christianity as an example. Medieval Christians had not even heard of yin-yang.

I can see that. I don't have a problem with viewing energy that way, instead of in a polar way. I just don't think the case is strong that polarity is inherently sexist. In fact, when you use Christianity as an example, you more or less argue my point. Those traditions you speak about didn't treat women poorly because they believed in polar energy; Christians didn't; they treated women poorly because they were sexist.

Sexist societies can take non-sexist philosophies and use them as an excuse to oppress women. Non-sexist societies can take the same philosophies and use them differently.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't being clear. These kind of things are difficult for me to put into words.

I wasn't using medieval Christian ideas about sex and gender to build a case against the philosophy on yin and yang. I'm just drawing parallels. This kind of categorization appears often.

You are right that "feminine" is not to say "woman," but I don't think the two can be separated. "Feminine" is not that abstract to me; it means of or relating to qualities generally attributed to a woman. NeoPagans are more liberal about this, but traditionally it's not exactly a compliment to tell a man he's feminine or that he has a feminine energy.
All these models, whether its those of medieval Christianity or Chinese yin and yang, define the same characteristics within the same scope: the feminine (woman) is dark, introverted, earthy, fleshy, passive and the masculine (man) is light, extroverted, spirit, aggressive, etc.

Polarity is characterized by opposite extremes. I very much think Christians have a polarized view of the world -- man/woman, good/bad, light/dark. How much more polarized can they get?

And I'm going to let you wrap up; I'm going to bow out. It's not because of you or the discussion (because you know I like both), but I kind feel like I'm derailing a little and I just keep repeating myself.

[AlAskendir]

Hey All,

I am currently talking to a freidn who is feeling demoralized...and doubting himself when it coems to him being gay. He is gay, but he feels somewhat as though it is a bad thing and he gave me this.
http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/flsh_phobia.html . Now, reading soem of these quotes...Kevin carlyon, or more commonly known as 'King Kev' a pathetic egotist from england...but the others I am not familiar with. Now, a question...as far as I have seen and have experianced, the Pagan community as a whole has been mostly very accepting of the GLBTQ adherants. Whether they were gay teen wiccans, or the Lesbian Goddess worshippers...I have always experianced a great love and really a great acceptance of sexual minorities...since mainstream Paganism was built into the Feminist movement. Now, what do you think, do you think there is an antigay bias in Paganism, or do you think that these quotes are mostly by fringe writers...? Namaste

Tobias

Inroduce your friend to the Feri Tradition! Give up on toxic anti-gay writers

[AlAskendir]

After reading your explanation, I realize that it's not that I don't understand the concept. It's that I don't agree with it within the context you're using.

You are using the yin and yang model, an Eastern concept that is not part of my philosophy. I don't agree at all with these categorizations on yin and yang:

yin --> female, passive, dark, introversion, earth, flesh
yang --> male, aggressive, light, extroversion, heaven, spirit

I find the model patriarchal and sexist and far from balanced.


Well, if you want balance, I have an elemental system that I call the Novastar - - -

Male Elements = Earth, Air, Lightning, and Crystal;
Female Elements = Spirit, Water, Tone, and Fire;
Neutral MetaElement = Void.

So, theories of polarity can exist without being Patriarchal....but I think they pretty much have to be sexist...depending on how you define sexism...

[Toby Stimpson]

When I read your logic Dr Zeus, I think immeditaly that it is somewhat scewed. Im taking it you are going on the idea that one's actions define the person inside...which can be the case for a few things, but not everything. First and foremost, I don't think you understand what gays go through when it coems to dating women. Most closeted gays and lesbians will date the opposite sex out of necessity, not becasue they are confused as to their sexual orientation. they will go through the motions of heterosexual sex in order to make themselves appear straight. It is fighting against who you are so that you feel more secure in your life. The majority of rural gays for example will stay closeted for years becasue of fear of persecuation. However, taking your example...what if this happens, a Wiccan goes to Church and does not discuss her spiritual beliefs with anyone. She goes to Church in order to make herself appear to be Christian just so that her real beliefs are not discovered...is she a Christian then? Just to go with your belief about sexual orientation...

Namaste

Tobias

[Gen]

But you can't do a fertility rite based on a gay relationship. My lesbian friend just got back from the gynecologist and she assures me I'm right. ;)

But in the eyes of modern practitioners, doesn't "fertility" often mean more than just sperm-egg reproduction? It also signifies creativity, bringing new things into being, often even financial windfalls.

In the most literal mindset, no, gay sex isn't reproductive (and, in the days of modern birth control methods, neither is most heterosexual sex). But just like in any other kind of loving relationship, gay sex is usually more than just the sum of its parts. That's why having sex -- or not -- will change any relationship on such a powerful, fundamental level.

I haven't waded through this whole thread yet, so I hope no one has said this yet.

[Ron]

Well, the homosexuals that I am aquainted with, all say that it is a decision. Then they have a very obscure defintion of the word « decision ».

[Gen]

The only decision is whether you fight what you are, or accept what you are. It is also possible to do things that go against your basic attractions, but that does not mean you have "switched" -- merely that you forced yourself to do something you're not naturally inclined to do.

The only ones who truly have a choice about whether they want to stick to just one gender, and who really do feel an attraction regardless which one they choose, are bisexuals.

Perhaps the people you've encountered are bisexual, not homosexual.

Well, most people ARE bisexual, to one degree or another. Sexuality is very complicated, even for people who consider themselves firmly heterosexual or homosexual, and I think even inside those labels, there is a continuum. In Dan Savage's sex advice column just this week, there is a letter from a lesbian who only likes to watch heterosexual porn. (Tellingly, the issue wasn't whether she is "really" gay, but that her mom found her stash.) And what about straight men that have fantasies about sharing women with their male friends?

I didn't "decide" that I was straight, but I did have to figure out what I was, and the answer was a lot more complicated than an either/or. I felt more comfortable energetically being with men and I enjoyed the sex a lot more, but for a long time I played the male role in my fantasies and, until I met my husband, I only had strong romantic feelings for females. I am not transgendered; I don't even like to play male characters in video games, but I sure did in my fantasy life.

I tell my story not to give TMI, but to show that there is a lot of nuance even within the labels "gay" and "straight," and that for many people there are a lot of decisions to make about who they are, because there may be potential for more than one thing. Ultimately, I had to figure out what my morass of varying attractions meant in terms of how I was going to live my life. I did, in fact, CHOOSE to live a heterosexual life, because I wanted children, and being with men didn't entail pretending to have body parts I don't have (though many of my lesbian friends dig on this, and more power to them, I say).

[Ron]

Inroduce your friend to the Feri Tradition! Give up on toxic anti-gay writers
Hi, um. I happen to be that particular friend. I've seen the Feri tradition. In fact, my beliefs are quite far from anything neo-Wicca. As well, please note that the author is a homo (like me). I pulled that article up when I was talking to Galadraal because Mr. Hine had inspired me in his other writings, but seeing that collection of homophobia, I started to wonder. Sadly, television has drilled Evangelican Chr-stian views into my subconcious -- I am slowly knocking them out.

Anyway, I'm not interested in the Feri tradition, but thank you anyway! :)

[Ben Gruagach]

Hi, um. I happen to be that particular friend. I've seen the Feri tradition. In fact, my beliefs are quite far from anything neo-Wicca. As well, please note that the author is a homo (like me). I pulled that article up when I was talking to Galadraal because Mr. Hine had inspired me in his other writings, but seeing that collection of homophobia, I started to wonder. Sadly, television has drilled Evangelican Chr-stian views into my subconcious -- I am slowly knocking them out.

Anyway, I'm not interested in the Feri tradition, but thank you anyway! :)

Well, I hope you've read through this whole thread and have been reassured that Phil Hine was not expressing some homophobic side to his personality with that webpage -- but rather the opposite.

[Ron]

Well, I hope you've read through this whole thread and have been reassured that Phil Hine was not expressing some homophobic side to his personality with that webpage -- but rather the opposite.
LOL. I knew that from the start. I never saw it as an issue. I was just reading through that site and I came across the stuff... then later when I was having confidance problems, I remembered it, and thought, maybe they were right.

Sometimes people do foolish things.

_inabox_

[DebLipp]

But in the eyes of modern practitioners, doesn't "fertility" often mean more than just sperm-egg reproduction? It also signifies creativity, bringing new things into being, often even financial windfalls.

In the most literal mindset, no, gay sex isn't reproductive (and, in the days of modern birth control methods, neither is most heterosexual sex). But just like in any other kind of loving relationship, gay sex is usually more than just the sum of its parts. That's why having sex -- or not -- will change any relationship on such a powerful, fundamental level.

I haven't waded through this whole thread yet, so I hope no one has said this yet.
It's a fair question. I think symbolic fertility loses its oomph when we don't tie it to real fertility. Paganism, in so many, many ways, is about keeping it real. We base ourselves in nature, we pay attention to nature, and I don't want, for myself, a religion so abstract that it flies away from the world. That's the sort of thing that leads to teaching "intelligent design" in the schools!

What I'm saying is that sacred fertility and sacred sex are two different things. I'm not venerating heterosexual sex above homosexual sex, because, as you say, it isn't necessarily reproductive. I think that all acts of love and pleasure are sacred, because they're loving and pleasurable. This includes oral sex and hugging and foot massage and anal play and whatever two or more people choose to do consensually and respectfully. None of the things I listed are reproductive, none are exclusive to one or another orientation, and all are (potentially) sacred sex.

Sacred fertility is different. It's fertility. You don't have to engage in fertile sex to relate to it, because you were born, and therefore have been a direct participant in fertility. The miracle of creativity is the miracle of conception and birth.

Now, in Wicca, we do a cakes and wine ceremony. Traditionally, this is known as "the act of life" and is symbolized heterosexually; it is symbolic PIV penetration. If you are going to use a symbolic sex act to symbolize fertility, you must use that sex act, because that's the fertile one. The HP doesn't lick the cup! If you want to use something else to symbolize fertility, no one's stopping you. You can recite a poem to symbolize the fertility of the creative process. And if you want to use symbolic sex to symbolize love & pleasure, then it can be any symbolic sex. But sex-to-symbolize-fertility is pretty straightforward, no pun intended.

[Sage Rainsong]

Originally Posted by dr_zeus440
the "only" decision? seems like a pretty crucial decision to me. you choose who you sleep with, and are thus defined. whether or not youre attracted to men or women, if youre a man who sleeps with women, and everyone you know knows that you sleep with women, then, to them, you're straight. for all intents and purposes, you're straight. if your sexual orientation stays locked in your head for all eternity, then what are you, straight or gay?

"either you fight what you are or you accept what you are": i see where youre coming from. but, the way i see it, the concept of being is a very physical one, and intrinsically active. therefore, to me, if your actions as a man are sleeping with women, then you are straight. to me, whether youre a kinsey 6 or a kinsey 0, if youre a man who sleeps with women, then you are straight.

can a person theoretically (let alone actually) BE gay if he sleeps with women, he is known as a heterosexual by all who know him, he has the same perceptible actions as a straight man, though he is attracted, exclusively, to men? i think its an interesting philosophical question, and id like to know what you think.


....

i think its a choice. all of life is a choice. if youre a man who is attracted to men but you dont want to be a homosexual, then you can make a choice to not sleep with men. even if there is a gene controlling it, that doesnt matter, because you can choose to either accept it or reject it, you said so yourself Ben, and base you actions upon your decision. and if you dont have a choice about who you sleep with, then youve just been raped and should see the police. you cannot be forced by your genes to do something. only the weak are slaves to themselves. and the weak are only weak because they choose to be.

this is one post for which i will apologise if it offends, but i feel extremely, extremely passionately about this. i dont want to grow up in a world where people are accepted for saying "its not my fault, its my genes". i think its a pathetic sidestepping of true acceptance, and is a smack in the face for anyone who really does want acceptance, for their choices. if youre accepted for this, youre not being accepted for your choices and your rights to be whoever you want to be, youre being accepted because youre presenting it as a reality that you have had no part in and that could not be any different. gay pride is not about being proud of your genes. its about being proud about your lifestyle, the lifestyle that youve CHOSEN, not been born into. its about homosexuality being a valid lifestyle not because its scientifically unavoidable for many, but because its your own particular choice and because you have a right to so choose. its about validation of this particular choice as a positive one, not as a scientifically unavoidable one. im sorry, but saying its all genetic is pandering to the "science is god" mentality to achieve acceptance, and i think its grotesque.

woah, i didnt know that i actually did feel THAT strongly about this, i intended to end the post way up there where it says "this is one post for which i will apologise if it offends..".


Okay well I am gay so I have to say something. On a certain level I agree with you dr. zeus. The blaming things on genes mentality can get in the way of true acceptance. People may not truely accept gay people simply because they think "oh well its their genes." they then may or may not have a shallow acceptance of gay people. I guess this whole thing goes into the whole nature vs nuture debate. Personally I think that it is nature most of the time. The fact is, homosexual behavior really does occur in animals so there is some basis to the argument. However, even if homosexuality is an outright concious choise (which I don't believe it is) we should have the right to make that choise. the gay rights movement can't really explore the whole what causes homosexuality issue. Without the scientific basis the gay rights movement would not get the recognicion that it deserves.

Because I am suggesting an open mindedness towards the nature vs nurture debate mean that we sould "control our genetic urges" to please you and the rest of the dominant culture. I think not. To hell with that. People should be accepting of genetics and culture without trying so hard to figure out where they came from. Even if it is subconciously determined by messeges in our culture that doesn't invalidate the inner feelings of gay people or make them less "real."

[abrakus]

Because I am suggesting an open mindedness towards the nature vs nurture debate mean that we sould "control our genetic urges" to please you and the rest of the dominant culture. I think not. To hell with that. People should be accepting of genetics and culture without trying so hard to figure out where they came from. Even if it is subconciously determined by messeges in our culture that doesn't invalidate the inner feelings of gay people or make them less "real."

I agree with you.

[Darkdale]

Then they have a very obscure defintion of the word « decision ».

A decision, in this context, is the process of making a choice between a number of options. I think sexual behavior falls under that definition.

[whiteravenfire]

I'm gay. Its something that I've known from an early age. It was never a descision that I made. Its part of me part of who I am and always has been.

I did however make one descision about my sexuality and that was that I would never lie about who I am not to myself or anyone else. Now I could have hidden who I was and lived a lie... but its very hard living two lives. The only thing I decided was that I would be true to myself and everything that I am.

Now that was a descision ... and the best one I ever made. :viking:

[Ron]

A decision, in this context, is the process of making a choice between a number of options. I think sexual behavior falls under that definition.
Aye, lest: sexual orientation and sexual behaviour are different.

[Philbo]

Christianity has the Bible, which is it's main source of authority. The Bible has a lot to say about proper/improper sexual behavior. Paganism has no such authoritative text, nothing that specificly says that homosexuality is wrong.

On another interesting note "homosexuality" wasn't even a word until late 19th century. Before that, if you engaged in same-sex relationships, you weren't put into a different sexual classification. People still might have called you a sinner or some other sort of derogatory remark, but there was no distinct sexual classification. This raises the question: if you have a same-sex relationship once, are you gay for the rest of your life? (by today's standards)

[Allegra2]

I have never met a Pagan who ever led me to believe that they were any thing but all excepting. That being said, I've never met more that about 70 Pagans.

Personally, if your gay, and have the courage to be out about it, I think you rock!!! (Heck, even if your not "out" I still think you rock.)

Here is to all the Homosexuals, all the Heterasexauls, all the great people out there sharing their lives with another soul.


Think about it, is a soul male or female???? In one life I may be male, in the next female... then I may be a self fertalizing tree for a while.. True love is about 2 souls connecting, not about biology. (Though it may be wise to stay within your own species. Ahem..)

Allegra

[Toby Stimpson]

In many ways, there is a set lifestyle when it coems to Gays or Lesbians that many choose to follow...however the sexual orientation underneath is not a decision and unless you are Gay then it is really impossible to know for sure and form an opinion. It's just like Gays cannot honestly say what it feels like to lust after the opposite sex. I can see sort of what your logic is Asa Heimdall when you say this:

A decision, in this context, is the process of making a choice between a number of options. I think sexual behavior falls under that definition.

Now, the choice to engage in gay sex...indeed in any form of sexual activity, is a choice. We make a choice to physically engage in sex. However, that being said I would have to disagree that the cause of arousal...the attraction in the first place is a conscious choice. Sexual arousal which casues the preffered sexual behaviour (whether gay or straight) is more of an instinct, like stated previously on this thread. Now, a defining characterisic of homosexuality is the mental and physical arousal predominantly for members of the same sex. Sexual behaviour is ofcourse a choice, based on our arousal. So...that being said...I would have to say that with that logic, can being gay be a decision and a choice? Now Philbo asked the qustion, does it make one gay for the rest of their life if you partake in one gay experiance? I don't think so...after all one makes a choice to follow a gay lifestyle and to coem out...but one experiance does not necessarily mean you are homosexual...as there is a time when many are not too sure as to their sexual orientation.

[Philbo]

Where did the whole "gay lifestyle" idea originate? Don't they have pretty much the same lifestyle as everyone else? (Shopping, watching movies, going to work, eating at the same restaurants, etc.)

[AmbivalentMirage]

Where did the whole "gay lifestyle" idea originate? Don't they have pretty much the same lifestyle as everyone else? (Shopping, watching movies, going to work, eating at the same restaurants, etc.)

Mmm... it's somewhat like an urban myth. It's like saying the "African American lifestyle" or the "Middle Class lifestyle"... The main events are always the same, there are just some varying perspectives and details. Not that it matters, though... A straight man can do everything a gay man does in his daily routine and he'll still be straight in the end.

I've kind of resolved it to this: I'm gay and I don't care what caused it or why it is. It's just part of who I am... and I like me. :lilangel:

As for male/female or masculine/feminine or whatever-label-you-like dogma... who cares. Red and yellow make orange. Does that give red and yellow sexual identities so that they can "create" something new? No. Four plus two is six. Does that make four and two a heterosexual couple? No. Lots of things are created and made in this world without the whole polarity concept. I don't need it. I don't use it. My magic works quite well. :)

[Ron]

^ Amen.

Anyone who believes that one's lifestyle is dictated by their sexual orientation is incorrect; there is no "gay lifestyle". I know plenty of homosexually-inclined persons that have the same lifestyle as John Smith & Jane Doe...

[whiteravenfire]

I couldn't agree more AmbivalentMirage. In the end it really doesn't matter why we are gay. Just that we are and that we love ourselves, and other people for who they are. :)

If everybody was the same then there'd be no one to challenge us... life would be stagnant and boring...I'm grateful that its not. :)

[dancinghathors]

when people get into these sort of discussions i always think back to this funny questionaire.


H O W D O Y O U K N O W Y O U A R E S T R A I G H T ?

When did you first realize you were attracted to people of the opposite sex?


Do you think you were born this way, or was it a choice you made?


How do you know it's not just a phase?


Have you ever tried to have a homosexual relationship? If not, how can you be sure that you simply have not met the right person of the same sex?


If most of your peers were homosexual, would you still insist on behaving in a heterosexual manner?


Given the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) due to heterosexual behavior, aren't you concerned about disease?


Do you think STDs are God's punishment for heterosexual behavior?


Given that the world is suffering the effects of overpopulation, how can you justify your heterosexual behavior?


Since most heterosexual marriages end in divorce, why would you want to pursue a heterosexual relationship?


Given that most pedophiles are heterosexual, would you vote to allow heterosexuals to teach your children?


Why do you have to shove it in everybody's face, with public displays of affection, wearing rings, and talking about your partner?


Since so many heterosexuals are promiscuous as young people, and seem unable to maintain long monogamous relationships, do you think they should be allowed to raise children?

[Gen]

{giggle}

But this questionnaire leaves out any mention of the 'heterosexual agenda'...

[springing]

In many ways, there is a set lifestyle when it coems to Gays or Lesbians that many choose to follow

No, I think that is a myth.

There is a set stereotype. The truth of the matter is that if even 3% of, say, America were homosexual, that would be still be a good 9 million people, and do you honestly believe that 9 million people are all following the so-called gay lifestyle? Most are closeted and you wouldn't know them if you met them.

[Toby Stimpson]

That being said...the stereotype IS the lifestyle...there are gays out there who will go all out inorder to be more 'gay'...following certain stereotyes inorder to lead a more gay lifetsyle...that is what I was getting at. People CHOOSE to follow those stereotypes becasue they think they will be living their lives to the fullest...

Tobias

[DebLipp]

That being said...the stereotype IS the lifestyle...there are gays out there who will go all out inorder to be more 'gay'...following certain stereotyes inorder to lead a more gay lifetsyle...that is what I was getting at. People CHOOSE to follow those stereotypes becasue they think they will be living their lives to the fullest...

Tobias
People choose to be a part of a community. They choose to "fit in" with a community, often as a celebration of belonging (at last), or to symbolize overt membership in a community. All Pagans do not wear pentagrams, and all pentagram-wearers are not Pagan, but many Pagans wear identifying jewelry to symbolize our connection with our community and our path. Or, we do it to show that we are "out" and to celebrate our identity.

Liking show tunes and camping doesn't make you gay, and all gays don't do it. But it's true that some adopt it for reasons of community.

[Toby Stimpson]

Well...not so much show tunes...or camping Deb...what I mean is getting a specific ear pierced with a specific type of earing to represent being gay...or to try to speak in a voice that isn't there own and using words like 'darling' or 'hunny' when they didnt before...you know what I mean. If that makes any sense? lol

[Ben Gruagach]

Well...not so much show tunes...or camping Deb...what I mean is getting a specific ear pierced with a specific type of earing to represent being gay...or to try to speak in a voice that isn't there own and using words like 'darling' or 'hunny' when they didnt before...you know what I mean. If that makes any sense? lol

I know plenty of gay guys (including my long-term partner) who don't have any piercings or tattoos, who don't "talk funny," and who don't use phrases like "darling" or "hunny."

As Deb pointed out, some people do take on stereotypical behaviour as a way of trying to "fit in." Just like some people who get involved with modern witchcraft or Paganism jump into the whole goth thing too, because they feel that style helps them identify with their community. Many of us in the witchcraft and Pagan community though realize that we don't have to follow a particular style or appearance to be witches or Pagans, and are quite happy just being ourselves. Just like many gays and lesbians don't stand out in a crowd because they don't feel the need to take on stereotypical appearances in order to be gay or lesbian.

[DebLipp]

Well...not so much show tunes...or camping Deb...what I mean is getting a specific ear pierced with a specific type of earing to represent being gay...or to try to speak in a voice that isn't there own and using words like 'darling' or 'hunny' when they didnt before...you know what I mean. If that makes any sense? lol
umm...the speech style you refer to is called "camp" and using it is called "camping."

[Aidron]

Well...not so much show tunes...or camping Deb...what I mean is getting a specific ear pierced with a specific type of earing to represent being gay...or to try to speak in a voice that isn't there own and using words like 'darling' or 'hunny' when they didnt before...you know what I mean. If that makes any sense? lol


Just to clear a few things up, Galadraal is correct about a large number of homosexual men acting in such a manner, just as homosexual women have very common behaviors. Perhaps it is the way the brains are wired that manifest these various contrasting and similar likes, dislikes, mannerisms and so forth.

However, by no means is this a set rule. Just as many do not indulge in such, whether to rebel or because it is not who they are. I for one do not care for show tunes, I think they're nauseating. I have an equal amount of piercings in my right ear as I do in my left ear (three total in each), which is reflective of my affinity for the number three and balance. I do want tattoos and intend to get some, but none planned to date (and I have about four planned) involve anything typically associated with homoesexuality (no rainbows, no inverted triangles, etc.). I speak in my regular voice at all times as well, and in referencing people I am far more likely to use such unaffectionate terms as 'asshole', 'shithead', 'loser' than I am inclined to use 'hunny', 'dahling' or anything else remotely similar.

All of these things I do are A.) reflective of who I am and B.) done so that I do not perpetually puke my guts up in annoyance at myself.

I personally have never had a problem with my own homosexuality interfering with my faith. It is true that Wicca was originally based on fertility and when speaking of reproductive fertility male/female relations are the only way that is going to happen as of yet. I'm not Wiccan though and while I acknowledge the importance of balance regarding gender in most Wiccan sects I find gender to be in the end irrelevant. I do not even find the number two to be necessarily significant of balance, as many Wiccans and neo-pagans follow a God and Goddess, where as my patrons are all female (two possessing what are normally viewed as very masculine personnas [Athene, Artemis]) and number in three, not two.

Homosexuality in turn was very accepted in ancient Greece, and I'm sure that has importance on some level, whether it be subconscious or merely that it is a re-affirmation of myself being on the right path for me. I would not, however, necessarily view any aspect of who I am in relevance to my faith except in cases where there are extremes (such as great support over an aspect of myself or great disgust over an aspect of myself). Christianity rejects me as a homosexual, but since I am not Christian I remain unphased by it. Likewise since I am homosexual I would never be Christian, so it's a moot point in the end in such scenarios with me.

At the end of the day I do not give thought to the correlation between my hormones and chromosomes to my faith in regards to what type of anatomy gets my hormones fired up. I am attracted to what I am attracted to and that's that. I could certainly supress it, but since I am full of self-respect and self-love as opposed to self-loathing I have no desire to do so.

This, like anything else is all a matter of finding faith, any faith, that is harmonious with who you are. We all seek that and base it on everything from sexual orientation to race to sex to pretty much everything else that defines who and what we are in this life. I don't see how this particular situation regarding homosexuality is any different or deserves anymore creedance than the next in that case. So, at the end of the day like I said, I don't personally imbue much concern, heartache or worry into this.

In such cases where gender and sex (the act, not in reference to gender in this case which would be redundant) factor into the equation of faith and practice I defy anyone to tell me I could not figure a way around it. The Great Rite is irrelevant to me as one who is not Wiccan, sex magic can be worked regardless of gender and I don't see physical anatomy as necessarily being the equivalent of balance between gender energies. Some men can be very feminine, some women very masculine. Some can be both, some have energy that suits their anatomy. Personally I think we try to over simplify it all in relation to our anatomy. Athene, for example, while a goddess is very masculine, treading into territory very few other goddesses did and into roles usually reserved for men, but she makes it work so I see no reason why I could not make it work whatever scenario may cross my path as well.

Other than that the only time I really concern myself with my faith and the fact that I'm gay is when I happen upon the neo-pagan homophobes who are intent on having 15 female partners and freaking out at even the suggestion (from anyone, not me, I wouldn't care enough to suggest it) that their partners could have other men, or that they should take other men into their bed with their women as their women take other women into bed with him in such cases. That treads into hypocrisy, however, and so I digress.

[Toby Stimpson]

You both bring up many good points up Ben abd Deb...and im sure among older Gays and Lesbians that is common...but a lot of the gay teenagers who come out are filled with a sense of needing to belong, like you said...and do take on stereotypical behaviour (well among the vast majority of the gays I have met, and I worked with a GSA for 2 years and met a lot from different schools in my area)...getting back to my original point it is these stereotypes which are the 'gay lifestyle'...but taking it a step further...if you go into any gay bar or club you will see certain actions taking place which have been associated with a so called gay lifestyle...young guys dressing and acting in a certain way to attract a sex partner for that night (and im generalizing here)...again this isnt normal natural behaviour that represents all gays but it is soemthing that is seen as part of this so called 'gay lifestyle'...when it coems to homosexuality and choice, the sexual orientation behind that is I dont think a choice, BUT certain stereotypes that soem people choose to take on to belong ARE a choice...does that sort of clarify my point? (Don't mind me, I have an idea of what I want to say but I tend to ramble on, do excuse me lol).

Namaste

Tobias

[Sage Rainsong]

I know that the post is slightly old but:

I dont think a choice, BUT certain stereotypes that soem people choose to take on to belong ARE a choice...does that sort of clarify my point?


I think that it really depends. Many people believe in stereotypes. Labels and stereotypes are everywhere in our society. Many people believe that guys are not as sensitive as women for instance. Some people may really believe this and live up to it because they believe it as fact. For example when I was in a semester abroad program I started the GSA. Now I had to have the approval of a faculty member. The man ho I got permission from was also gay and we started talking. He said that I was so butch that it was bizzare and he asked if I was really gay (I was really pissed). this man was gay and he really believed these stereotypes as fact. Now for him since he really believed in the cultural norms for gay people and the fact that he was so ignorant I am not sure that you can call it a full on concious choise. However I myself have used the stereotype at times. Usually I go out in a mixed club and I act stereotypically gay in order to let a potential man know that I am gay and its okay to hit on me. I have also worn pride jewlery for this purpose. It makes the whole are you gay guessing game a lot easier and less nerve racking. You never know if you would offend the wrong person. So I would say that for me it usually is a flat out choise. I hope I made my point well enough. Does that make sense?