Regarding poetry and Imbas

[Phi]

I wrote this in answer to a query about the poem below, as to whether I received it through Imbas or whether it was written somewhere else.
I originally had it on another thread, but it brings up a lot of things I have been thinking about, and I thought it might need a thread of its own.
I hope you will forgive it's being so long, and will feel free to discuss the things herein:
Since, as I say below, I am discouraged at the moment, I hope that perhaps I may find some encouragement too.
I highlighted in green some of the things I would especially like help with or answers to for those of you that avoid long posts. :zzzzZZZ: :fpartay:

My Imbas, my poetry and my way of communicating with the spirit(s) of the trees, birds, waters, sky, earth, and receiving in return the Senchas Mor: (Edited to say this should have said "Oran Mor.")

Go thou to the deep wood
The birds will guide thee.
Soft mosses will be thy kneeling pillow.
Take thy flute, thy harp or yet still, thy voice with thee.
Listen well to the wood and the water.
Peer through the tall trees at the sky.
Hear the songs and learn their meanings.
Play or sing, and in this find commandment, assurance, prayer and bliss.



(I did not look up the proper spelling for Senchas Mor,(This should have said "Oran Mor.") and have only recently read that this word exists and is part of Celtic/Druidic lore, so anyone please feel free to correct me if I spelled it wrong)
I was delighted read about it after I had been experiencing it.



In all of the reading I have been doing:reading: , in all of the various ways of seeking written information, through many books/websites, I have yet to find anything that speaks to my spirit quite as clearly as what I described in the poetry above. If I had not experienced this (to my great delight) I would never have undertaken all the work and study that has followed.

I typed it in because it seems a simple way to begin for a newcomer, to understand what Imbas can be through experience, and the great song that is there for all who will listen.

(Myrddyn opened this door for me through his lessons on this forum, beginning with "A suggestion from an old friend.") http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=25663

But no, in all of my reading I haven't yet come across anything that resembles it.:whatgives
Although I do not doubt that it is there somewhere...I have been told by several that I am being "guided." This isn't the first time that I have been told that my poetic writing strongly resembles something obscure that I have not yet read. Perhaps in some cases, it does not resemble some other poem, but simply resonates?

I am currently trying not to get too discouraged in my learning from written word, and in my posting what I am learning from written word. I do find it difficult sometimes to hold a conversation online when every word must be the words and thoughts of some writer elsewhere, appropriately footnoted, as if my own intuition/Imbas/opinion/writing/idea was not acceptable, and as if I were doing a term paper rather than discussing spiritual ideas.

As if we are not to think/experience, but only to follow the thinking/experience of others.

I will study hard. I will welcome direction, help, discussion. But I just cannot follow blindly. Although I can respect the writings of others, and may take some guidance from it, I do not consider them to be my leaders/gods/priests...for all are fallible. When I make mistakes, I want them to be my mistakes, not the mistakes of others that I blindly followed...:fpipesmok
That's just me.:twitch:


Although study of the past is very important, if we are actually following a spiritual path rather than simply being historians, I should think that some of our conversations should be about what we experience today, and not just about what was written about the past...:hrmm:

Of course, when talking about history, footnotes may well help the other person to understand me better so they can read what I have read; and it might also help the other person to help me understand better what I have read, so I do not mind at all in posts about the history of things... and I surely welcome it from others.

Sometimes I am surfing for information (lately particularly archaeology), and get into the information so much that I forget to save all the site addresses. I am doing a bit better with that most of the time, so I can share with others more easily.

There is history, and there is now...there is study and there is spirit. I have difficulty living my spiritual life totally in the study of the past without bringing it forward into the now.

In fact, since I see the shapes of things so readily,( for example, when I see brooches found in the UK that strongly resemble torques, I wonder why they are called "Roman?") I really cannot separate Imbas from my reading, and I wonder, should I even try?

Poetry does seem to get across to everyone that I am speaking from Imbas, and not from the mouth of a Neo/Recon writer or other current-era Druidic tradition that I might need to footnote...

It also helps to avoid the idea that anything from Imbas should be treated as unworthy of consideration, and the idea that anything from Imbas is not helpful to anyone else but the receiver of it. It doesn't help everyone to avoid those ideas, but maybe some.

I find much help and direction through Imbas, often I am able to intuit what to read that will satisfy my curiosity regarding what is written on a certain subject. Sometimes it leads to looking at archaeological sites that do not satisfy it, but rather enhance my curiosity. :ggrief:

Since my (Imbas/intuition) words and meanings are often clearer and more concise through poetry and song, I like to use it from time to time in response to a post. But some do not like that, I guess. :2G: In some forums there is only one place in which poetry should be written, and it is not really welcome in a discussion thread...unless of course, it can be footnoted, that is; it must be the poetry of another...:hmmmmm: And I have yet to see a Druid website where intuited /Imbas music can be entered easily...for sharing and/or discussion.
Somehow I find that odd in a Bardic tradition, do any of you?...:whatgives



Now, see how long this post is???I could have said all this in a much shorter poem:kooky:

Footnote: "Oran Mor" means the Great Song or the Great Music.
According to the source given below, "The Celts of old believed that the world was upheld and sustained by a single all embracing melody: Oran Mor, they called it, the Great Music, and all creation was part of it."
from Stephen Lawhead quoted in the notes of The Bard and the Warrior by Johnson and Dunning, taken from The Mist-Filled Path by Frank MacEowen copyright 2002, p.131.

[skilly-nilly]

My Imbas, my poetry and my way of communicating with the spirit(s) of the trees, birds, waters, sky, earth, and receiving in return the Senchas Mor:
Go thou to the deep wood

The birds will guide you.

Soft mosses will be your kneeling pillow.

Take thy flute, thy harp or yet still, thy voice with thee.

Listen well to the wood and the water.

Peer through the tall trees at the sky.

Hear the songs and learn their meanings.

Play or sing, and in this find commandment, assurance, prayer and bliss.



(I did not look up the proper spelling for Senchas Mor, and have only recently read that this word exists and is part of Celtic/Druidic lore, so anyone please feel free to correct me if I spelled it wrong)
I was delighted read about it after I had been experiencing it.

Right away I'm confused. I am not familiar with the term 'Senchas Mor', so I googled it. There are (as in most Old Irish words) a couple of spellings, but the references all point to a codification of Brehon law made by StPatrick:

http://groups.msn.com/AncientWisdomCulturesPeople/introdruids2.msnw

Druids were recognized by Irish law even after the introduction of Christianity. The civil law of Ireland was first known to have been codified in AD 438 as the 'Senchas Mor'. The criminal law, contained in the 'Book of Acaill', was codified shortly afterwards.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ali/ali087.htm

The Brehons seem to have made the most minute regulations as to the life of the people, even concerning the domestic cats. In the Senchas Mor (The Great Antiquity) it is enacted that the cat is exempt from liability for eating the food which he finds in the kitchen, "owing to negligence in taking care of it."

http://www.draeconin.com/database/brehon1.htm

Of the tracts contained in these volumes, the two largest and most important are the Senchus Mór [Shanahus More] and the Book of Acaill [Ack'ill]. In the ancient Introduction to the Senchus Mor the following account is given of its original compilation. In the year 438 A.D. a collection of the pagan laws was made at the request of St. Patrick; and Laegaire [Laery] King of Ireland, appointed a committee of nine learned and eminent persons, including himself and St. Patrick, to revise them. At the end of three years these nine produced a new code, from which everything that clashed with the Christian doctrine had been carefully excluded. This was the Senchus Mór.

This seems like a fine example of making oneself clear by defination and reference. I understand the term 'Imbas' but I am sure that there are people reading this thread who don't. Likewise, I don't understand what you mean by 'Senchas Mor'---wouldn't it have made your post much clearer if you had pointed to someplace where "I was delighted read about it after I had been experiencing it." (if on-line) or explained what you had read, even ever so briefly, so that someone not familiar with the concept could follow what you were saying?

I do not think that you were led by the contemplation of Nature to a codification of Brehon civil law....I assume you mean something else by 'Senchas Mor', but I have no idea what it might be.


I typed it in because it seems a simple way to begin for a newcomer, to understand what Imbas can be through experience, and the great song that is there for all who will listen.


Although I do not doubt that it is there somewhere...I have been told by several that I am being "guided." This isn't the first time that I have been told that my poetic writing strongly resembles something obscure that I have not yet read. Perhaps in some cases, it does not resemble some other poem, but simply resonates?

Although I am a hard polytheist and a kind of re-con, I also agree with the Jungian supposition that we, as humans, tap into a collective well of knowing. What I understand through Imbas, some other person using the technique of some other culture/religion could also see, albeit through the lens of that other culture/religion and so somewhat differently. This, I think, is the benchmark of discussion:
What I see is my Imbas; 'only' my Imbas, 'wholly' my Imbas, 'nothing but' my Imbas.
On the one hand, no one can discredit what I see, but (on the other hand) I cannot discredit their different vision. So, on the gripping hand, we can appreciate whatever similarities we find but cannot resolve any dis-similarities.

This makes for extremely tricky discussion.


Although study of the past is very important, if we are actually following a spiritual path rather than simply being historians, I should think that some of our conversations should be about what we experience today, and not just about what was written about the past...:hrmm:

I completely agree.

Since my (Imbas/intuition) words and meanings are often clearer and more concise through poetry and song, I like to use it from time to time in response to a post. But some do not like that, I guess. :2G: In some forums there is only one place in which poetry should be written, and it is not really welcome in a discussion thread.

One of the great beauties of poetry is that it is allusive. I think that poetry is perfectly appropriate everywhere, but one also has to express the opinion/thought/point in clear (that is, as prose) in order to have a discussion about it.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Phi, I see exactly what you're getting at about the differences between Imbas and research. There are some places that do only respect research - but there are also places that only respect Imbas as well. What is needed is to find a balance between the two, where both are treated with equal respect. Both have equally important and necessary places in the tradition. Afterall, the Druids were not only Bards but also historians and keepers of law.

However, I also think that it's incredibly important to make sure you differentiate between what is Imbas and what is historical. If it is your own kennings, then it is important to make it clear that it is your own. When it is historical then it is equally important to footnote and source what you are discussing. While it might be clear to you when something is your own and when it's someone else's it is not always clear to other readers and by not identifying if it is your personal Imbas or someone elses history or Imbas, you make it difficult for someone who is interested in the idea to look into it more fully.

[Phi]

Right away I'm confused. I am not familiar with the term 'Senchas Mor', so I googled it. There are (as in most Old Irish words) a couple of spellings, but the references all point to a codification of Brehon law made by StPatrick:


This seems like a fine example of making oneself clear by defination and reference. I understand the term 'Imbas' but I am sure that there are people reading this thread who don't. Likewise, I don't understand what you mean by 'Senchas Mor'---wouldn't it have made your post much clearer if you had pointed to someplace where "I was delighted read about it after I had been experiencing it." (if on-line) or explained what you had read, even ever so briefly, so that someone not familiar with the concept could follow what you were saying?

You are right, of course! I apologize for your confusion. I certainly should have looked that up and given a footnote for it. Originally I was writing a response to one person, who might well have known the word I meant and told it to me...and so I should have edited and refined before posting for all.
The term I meant to use was "Oran Mor." In order to avoid further confusion, I will attempt to correct that with a footnote in the first post.
Please remember that my study on things Celtic and Druidic has only begun in the past 1 year and sometimes I do make mistakes with Celtic words, while my experience with what you and I now call Imbas has been going on for as long as I can remember.

I do thank you for a quick response, however.

Although I am a hard polytheist and a kind of re-con, I also agree with the Jungian supposition that we, as humans, tap into a collective well of knowing. What I understand through Imbas, some other person using the technique of some other culture/religion could also see, albeit through the lens of that other culture/religion and so somewhat differently. This, I think, is the benchmark of discussion:


What exactly does the word "hard" in the term "hard polytheist" mean? I can't help wondering why anyone would have ever chosen the word "hard" in relation to spiritual, although I know it wasn't you, Skilly, who coined the term. I am asking because it does arouse my curiosity. Does it mean those who are "hard polytheists" must be "hard" in some way I don't quite understand? I ask with respect, and out of a real need to understand this term that seems so hard/harsh to my mind. Also I have yet to have anyone say they are a "soft polytheist," so I can't figure out why use the word "hard?" IE, "hard" as opposed to what?

What I see is my Imbas; 'only' my Imbas, 'wholly' my Imbas, 'nothing but' my Imbas.
On the one hand, no one can discredit what I see, but (on the other hand) I cannot discredit their different vision. So, on the gripping hand, we can appreciate whatever similarities we find but cannot resolve any dis-similarities.


But do you believe that Imbas never gives information meant to be shared with others?
And perhaps even to be interpreted by others as well, therefore left as it is received(not translated into prose)?

Why would you feel the need to "discredit their different vision?" For myself I usually try to understand/credit a different vision, or way of looking at things, rather than looking to discredit. Sometimes another person's insight can inform my own, so why would I want to discredit that? Insofar as resolving dis-similarities, I have to say vive la difference! We can share, can't we, without having to all think exactly alike?


One of the great beauties of poetry is that it is allusive. I think that poetry is perfectly appropriate everywhere, but one also has to express the opinion/thought/point in clear (that is, as prose) in order to have a discussion about it.Then shouldn't a whole lot of Irish or Welsh mythology, which was written in poetic form, be discredited and presumably, forbidden to be discussed? Does that mean that if one took a reference from the ancient literature, if it was originally written in verse, that it should be discredited? Doesn't that leave out a whole lot of important information? Even "hard recons" (if I may coin a phrase) need the histories that were originally written in verse.

In the poem above can you tell me what part of it is not as clear as prose might have been? I really would like to know.

I hope that you are really coming to my aid here, as in the request to help me, and in the highlighted post that I am discouraged...
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here...I thank you for trying to encourage and help me.

[Phi]

Phi, I see exactly what you're getting at about the differences between Imbas and research. There are some places that do only respect research - but there are also places that only respect Imbas as well. What is needed is to find a balance between the two, where both are treated with equal respect. Both have equally important and necessary places in the tradition. Afterall, the Druids were not only Bards but also historians and keepers of law.

Morag! You have said succintly what I took many words to try to express! Exactly!!!:clapping:
Can everyone please read what Morag has said here? :thewave:

Not only Bards but historians and keepers of law! Conversely not only historians and keepers of law, but also Bards and Ovates!

Though I have been of the understanding from my studies of the ancient extant literature that there may have been education in both right and left brain directions for all the students of the historical teachings.
Didn't the historians have to learn poetry, and didn't the bards have to learn history, and didn't the ovates have to learn both???
So in practice today, to eliminate or discourage either would be unfortunate, IMO.
I really do appreciate your response, Morag. It means a lot to me.

However, I also think that it's incredibly important to make sure you differentiate between what is Imbas and what is historical. If it is your own kennings, then it is important to make it clear that it is your own. When it is historical then it is equally important to footnote and source what you are discussing. While it might be clear to you when something is your own and when it's someone else's it is not always clear to other readers and by not identifying if it is your personal Imbas or someone elses history or Imbas, you make it difficult for someone who is interested in the idea to look into it more fully.
I had never really thought to footnote any writing that was my own. I try hard not to ever plagarize, so I supposed that if I did not footnote my poems, all would know they were mine.
However, in prose writing, I usually do try to mention that it is my instinct/opinion/intuition whenever I think someone might think otherwise.
(In fact, I find the idea that my own prose or poetry writing might be mistaken for an expert's or for an ancient's a true compliment! WOW! So thanks, Morag!)

Thanks for the tip. I will certainly mention that it is my own if I write more either in prose or poetic form, for while it may seem obvious to me it might not be to some.
Can we laugh together here?:confused: the following is a joke...
(Disclaimer: this post was my own writing, and my own thinking, and not from the writtten materials of anyone else, therefore, a footnote or link is not given.):D

[skilly-nilly]

1)I might have found that I used the wrong term, and I will take some time to look for it, and when I find out the proper term, or the proper definition and reference for that term as I used it, I will give for all a clearer indication of what I meant, and whether I used the wrong term here.

2)What exactly does the word "hard" in the term "hard polytheist" mean? I can't help wondering why anyone would have ever chosen the word "hard" in relation to spiritual, although I know it wasn't you, Skilly, who coined the term. I am asking because it does arouse my curiosity. Does it mean those who are "hard polytheists" must be "hard" in some way I don't quite understand? I ask with respect, and out of a real need to understand this term that seems so hard/harsh to my mind.


3)But do you believe that Imbas never gives information meant to be shared with others?
And perhaps even to be interpreted by others as well, therefore left as it is received(not translated into prose)?

4)Why would you feel the need to "discredit their different vision?" For myself I usually try to understand/credit a different vision, or way of looking at things, rather than looking to discredit. Sometimes another person's insight can inform my own, so why would I want to discredit that? Insofar as resolving dis-similarities, I have to say vive la difference! We can share, can't we, without having to all think exactly alike?

Then shouldn't a whole lot of Irish or Welsh mythology, which was written in poetic form, should be discounted and presumably, forbidden to be discussed? Does that mean that if one took a reference from the ancient literature, if it was originally written in verse, that it should be discounted? Doesn't that leave out a whole lot of important information?

5)I hope that you are really coming to my aid here, as in the request to help me, and in the highlighted post that I am discouraged...Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here...I thank you for trying to encourage and help me. I will be back with the proper word or definition that you said confused you.

1)Since Imbas is vitally important to me, I am eagerly anticipitating more from you about it, and the concept behind the term you used.

2)I find the term 'hard' very funny myself. Strictly speaking, it means that the believer individuates the Gods/desses as completely seperate Beings, and does not believe in the ÜberGodForm that They all spring from or split off of or whatever. Also, generally, that Dieties do not conflate from one culture to another.
Personally, I believe that the Gods/desses communicate freely with each other so the terrible distinctness is therefore blurred. I also can neither substantiate nor disprove the ÜberGodForm, so I leave Hir alone---I don't think Ze is Who talks to us anyway, so it's moot.

If one has been raised a Fenian, 'hard' means 'has, as a soldier, killed enemies' so when I use the term it always reads to me as "I am a polytheist who has killed people". I find this quite gigglesome, but I freely admit that it might not be so exquisitely humorous to others.

3)I believe that Imbas often gives us messages for others, and that they are exactly that---a gift. I believe that a gift becomes the possession of the other:
If I gave someone a picture, I wouldn't tell them where to hang it;
If the Goddess (that is, the one who speaks to me) tells me something about someone else, I pass it on without an injunction to act on my part.

I do professional divination, and I am often in this position. I will be telling someone the meaning of their pick and they will say that they understand the message--then I stop explaining. Action is their possession.

4)Not so much 'discredit' as what to do in the face of disagreement. As I mentioned, I do divination--I use Ogham and employ trees as a part of the 'meanings' or 'identification'.
http://www.greenwisewoman.com/ogham/
Other people can, with perfect justification, say that little or no archeological evidence exists for the Ogham being linked to trees. So far, so good. That strict re-con could then go on to say that I can't do divination with Ogham and that I can't perceive them as trees. "No, " I say, "YOU can't."

So it's not that I wouldn't employ poetry as educational text, but that I would re-state the meaning I extracted from the text in clear (that is in prose as a statement). I wouldn't discuss the 'meaning' I extracted from the poetry by merely quoting--the possibility would be so great that the 'meaning' another reader of that poem extracted would be slightly or wildly different that we would be discussing at cross-purposes. Here is an example that uses the story of the 3 little pigs:
http://www.greenwisewoman.com/drool/thethreelittlepigs.html

Stating what you mean in clear makes it less allusive and beautiful, but allows discussion about interpretation.

5)Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I am not exactly coming to your aid, as trying to clarify exactly what you are saying so that we can engage in profitable-to-both discussion. I find that being asked to clarify and explain myself helps me to achieve better understanding of what I was trying to say and of what I was thinking and feeling at the start. So I see requests for clarification as helpful and supportive rather than combative and (by giving me the benefit of the doubt) I would hope you agree.

(Disclaimer: this post was my own writing, and my own thinking, and not from the writtten materials of anyone else, therefore, a footnote or link is not given.) I like that a lot---can we all use it??? :muwaha: , skilly-nilly

[Phi]

Great post! I am looking at your cards and your site, and I must say those are beautiful!
I had gone back to add some questions to my first post to you, but then I realized that you were typing while I was typing and when I posted my revised post your answer was already there. So I edited it back (mostly) to it's original.
Anyhow, the word I was wanting was Oran Mor. To avoid further confusion for others, I went back to my very first post and corrected and footnoted it there. Thanks for pointing out my error, it was indeed a doozy!
I will get back to discuss and share more after I have time to look at your lovely site and the other liinks you gave in your post. Maybe there I may find answers to my new questions, and if not, I'll ask them in a fresh post. :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Morag! You have said succintly what I took many words to try to express! Exactly!!!

Can everyone please read what Morag has said here?

Glad to be of service. ~bows and preens~

Not only Bards but historians and keepers of law! Conversely not only historians and keepers of law, but also Bards and Ovates!

Though I have been of the understanding from my studies of the ancient extant literature that there may have been education in both right and left brain directions for all the students of the historical teachings.
Didn't the historians have to learn poetry, and didn't the bards have to learn history, and didn't the ovates have to learn both???
So in practice today, to eliminate or discourage either would be unfortunate, IMO.
I really do appreciate your response, Morag. It means a lot to me.

I believe they were taught all the aspects (history, law, divination, magic, poetry, satire, music, etc.) though each would have had their own particular specialties that they excelled at.


I had never really thought to footnote any writing that was my own. I try hard not to ever plagarize, so I supposed that if I did not footnote my poems, all would know they were mine.

However, in prose writing, I usually do try to mention that it is my instinct/opinion/intuition whenever I think someone might think otherwise.

(In fact, I find the idea that my own prose or poetry writing might be mistaken for an expert's or for an ancient's a true compliment! WOW! So thanks, Morag!)

You are quite welcome. The poem is quite lovely. I was actually thinking of printing it out and keeping it with my other studies - with proper footnoting and sourcing of course. :spinner:

Thanks for the tip. I will certainly mention that it is my own if I write more either in prose or poetic form, for while it may seem obvious to me it might not be to some.

I think that's a fabulous idea.

Can we laugh together here?:confused: the following is a joke...
(Disclaimer: this post was my own writing, and my own thinking, and not from the writtten materials of anyone else, therefore, a footnote or link is not given.):D

:lol: Perhaps we should all add that our sigs. _tomatoe_

[Phi]

(Disclaimer: this post was my own writing, and my own thinking, and not from the writtten materials of anyone else, except as noted with footnote given.):D

Okay I changed it a bit so it might make more sense under a post that did have footnotes in it.
Use it if you want to!

I gotta go do mundane stuff for a while. Skilly I loved what you had to say in your site, and find that we are in agreement on a whole lot of things. Dying to talk about it, but the dinner has to be cooked first!
I'll be back later this evening.... ;)

[skilly-nilly]

Here's a great example of the conflict of scholarship and Imbas... :chatty:

:graduate: On the one hand, when I google 'Oran Mor' and then weed out the pipe band and Scottish musical group, all I get is Frank MacEowen. Now, I like Frank MacEowen; but he writes about his personal gnosis, and freely quotes, cites, and mixes in many many non-Druidic sources. His scholarship is not always the purest, although he is a fine writer and has valid Imbas to share.

There are also a lot of places in Scotland and Ireland named 'Oran Mor', which would lead one to assume that it has some general historical meaning outside of Frank MacEowen. I would just feel more comfortable citing 'Oran Mor' as a Druidic concept if it was referenced better---there are a lot of Celtic scholars and Uni programs drooling on the Web and I expect valid historical references to pop up a load of stuff.

:crazyman: On the other hand, I personally feel no doubt what-so-ever that the World is indeed Singing. I call this phenomonon 'The World Song', and I listen to it often. I edged into this perception by way of hearing the trees Singing (I call this the trees Singing the Great Ohm, because that's what I hear). I feel that this is what is described as 'Angel-Song' in more Xian mystics, but my perception is that all of the trees join into a choral group that involves all of the Earth. And ourselves, if we allow ourselves to engage. Many cultures reference this, and often specifically as Singing. Also as Rightness and Balance.

So the discussion can be about anthropological reference of what the Druids believed or called things, or about the unification of the Whole Earth in glad expression. You see the skew?

You can say, "The Druids believed in the world as a sentient being which expressed itself in singing, a concept they called Oran Mor.", and then get embroiled in a discussion of whether or not the Druids did have this belief. :reading: With footnotes.

Or you can say, "I hear the whole world sing the Great Song, which would be Amhrán Mór in Irish Gaelic." , and then get other people (me for instance) talking about their perceptions of the World Song. :ringaroun

On the gripping hand, I would always rather discuss personal gnosis than engage in a 'reference, reference, reference' war :fishsmack about what the Druids did or did not do milennia ago. In light of this, I tend to use English terms preferentially, except (as in the case of Imbas) there isn't any handy term to use.
Because I believe that when I use historical terms, I should use them in the context that the historical people themselves used them rather than squashing them into some post-modern pc usage. Then the discussion always trails off on defining what the terms used mean to the various posters. And often gets snippy.

Are you perhaps familiar with Alice in Wonderland's Humpty Dumpty?

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master--that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them--particularly verbs, they're the proudest--adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs--however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

"Would you tell me, please," said Alice, "what that means ?"

"Now you talk like a reasonable child," said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. "I meant by "impenetrability' that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you meant to do next, as I suppose you don't intend to stop here all the rest of your life."

"That's a great deal to make one word mean," Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra."

"Oh!" said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark.

"Ah, you should see 'em come round me of a Saturday night," Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to side: "for to get their wages, you know."

:braindrai, skilly-nilly

[Phi]

[QUOTE=skilly-nilly]Here's a great example of the conflict of scholarship and Imbas... :chatty:

:graduate: On the one hand, when I google 'Oran Mor' and then weed out the pipe band and Scottish musical group, all I get is Frank MacEowen. Now, I like Frank MacEowen; but he writes about his personal gnosis, and freely quotes, cites, and mixes in many many non-Druidic sources. His scholarship is not always the purest, although he is a fine writer and has valid Imbas to share.

There are also a lot of places in Scotland and Ireland named 'Oran Mor', which would lead one to assume that it has some general historical meaning outside of Frank MacEowen. I would just feel more comfortable citing 'Oran Mor' as a Druidic concept if it was referenced better---there are a lot of Celtic scholars and Uni programs drooling on the Web and I expect valid historical references to pop up a load of stuff.

I never said it was a "valid historical reference," now did I?:nyah:
Nevertheless, if you want to read a Celtic Scholar from a Uni try this link
http://celt.net/Celtic/Artisans/mills/oranmor.html (http://celt.net/Celtic/Artisans/mills/oranmor.html)


:crazyman: On the other hand, I personally feel no doubt what-so-ever that the World is indeed Singing. I call this phenomonon 'The World Song', and I listen to it often. I edged into this perception by way of hearing the trees Singing (I call this the trees Singing the Great Ohm, because that's what I hear). I feel that this is what is described as 'Angel-Song' in more Xian mystics, but my perception is that all of the trees join into a choral group that involves all of the Earth. And ourselves, if we allow ourselves to engage. Many cultures reference this, and often specifically as Singing. Also as Rightness and Balance.

So the discussion can be about anthropological reference of what the Druids believed or called things, or about the unification of the Whole Earth in glad expression. You see the skew?Exactly the point of the original post. There is value in both. However, since I began the post with Imbas and poetry I should think bright minds would know I was not looking for nor speaking of the bits of history remaining of the ancient ways.

You can say, "The Druids believed in the world as a sentient being which expressed itself in singing, a concept they called Oran Mor.", and then get embroiled in a discussion of whether or not the Druids did have this belief. :reading: With footnotes.
I could have said that, but I didn't. Reread and you will see. ["recently read that this word exists and is part of Celtic/Druidic lore,"] is not the same as your quote above.
Put no words into this mouth, please, it has enough words in there already.:D

Or you can say, "I hear the whole world sing the Great Song, which would be Amhrán Mór in Irish Gaelic." , and then get other people (me for instance) talking about their perceptions of the World Song. :ringaroun
It could also be "Oran" Mor according to:
http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB

MacBain's Dictionary



òran

a song; this is for *auran, from the correct and still existing form amhran, Irish amhrán, Middle Irish ambrán, Manx arrane; from amb, i.e. mu (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb27.html#mu), about, and rann (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb30.html#rann)? Irish amhar, Early Irish amor, music. Cf. Irish amhra (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb01.html#amhra), eulogy, especially in verse. Cf. amra (Cholumcille), panegyric.

mór

great, Irish mór, Old Irish mór, már, Welsh mawr, Old Welsh, Cornish maur, Breton meur (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb26.html#meur), Gaulish -mârós; Greek @G (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/conv.html#@G)-mwros, great, famed ( @G (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/conv.html#@G)e@'ghesí-mwros) in spear-throw; Gothic -mêrs, famed, mêrian, proclaim, Old High German mâri, famed, -mar in Germanic names German märchen, a tale, Norse m@oerr, famous; Slavonic -meru (Vladimir, etc.); Latin merus, English mere. A shorter form of the stem (*mâro-) appears in mò (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb26.html#mò), greater (mâ), q.v.


On the gripping hand, I would always rather discuss personal gnosis than engage in a 'reference, reference, reference' war :fishsmack about what the Druids did or did not do milennia ago.

So why start this post with the subject of what the Druids did or did not do milenia ago? :fishsmack LOL

In light of this, I tend to use English terms preferentially, except (as in the case of Imbas) there isn't any handy term to use.
Because I believe that when I use historical terms, I should use them in the context that the historical people themselves used them rather than squashing them into some post-modern pc usage. Then the discussion always trails off on defining what the terms used mean to the various posters. And often gets snippy.

I usually do not utilize Celtic terms at all, except when posting to others who do. I stay with English which is my native tongue for the most part. However when I read that the "Great Song" was part of the Celtic heritage, I was delighted. My heritage being, insofar as one can trace these things, overwhelmingly Scottish, Welsh, Briton, with a bit of Irish...

However, even if there was no name nor myth nor custom (which there undoubtedly is, else why the theater and music groups so named?) I would still be experiencing it as I have done all my life.

I see any post as "snippy" which obviously sets out to prove some sort of "one-upmanship" whether it is about history with footnotes, or about "my "Great Song" is better than your "Great Song.":veryweird


Regarding the humpty thing, of course I read Lewis Carroll long ago, and even then appreciated the illustration of the difficulties of word usage. However without word usage, however difficult it may be, we wouldn't be here would we?

I am not as persnickety about the separation of people's writings into "this has a reference to this well-known scholar" and "this doesn't." Because
1. I know some well-known scholars and therefore recognize how fallible they can be,
2. the established"scientific" criteria for defining who is and who isn't a "good" reference is faulty in and of itself, and
3.I really don't think that way myself.

Not that I cannot tell the difference in what others will think is an acceptable reference. I just don't fear their ridicule should it come. Anyone attempting to heap scorn is worth scorn, and should be prepared to receive it. It is rare that I cannot back up what I say, usually in a thouroughly satisfactory manner to all, and often to the great surprise and dismay of some very literal-minded persnicketies. :twitch:

I find it funny that often people have a tendency to think that anyone who is "spiritual" is stupid or uneducated. I am neither.

I have always taken both views at once, my "Imbas" is always "on" and informs my reading, writing, or research along the way. I have never performed a ritual for it, because it is always there without one. It just is and was for all this lifetime.

So, I am quite used to separating it all out for others, footnotes and all, whenever need be. (As one can imagine, a child like me learns early- in a Southern Baptist family -to look things up in an encyclopaedia so that what she has "seered" already will have the needed backup before she speaks of it, and she won't have to say how she actually came by the information in the first place) That this part is true might be partly evidenced by the poetry written last fall, which several said was very like poetry I had not read, and did not then know a title or resource so I could look it up.

In short, scholarship and Imbas work together for me.


But I do find that the bother of having to footnote every word I say interferes with
conversation to the point that semantics becomes the point rather than communication.
And also the time spent gathering references could more profitably be spent in conversation.

So... now, do you want to discuss more esoteric matters, and stay with the gripping hand's way for a bit? ;)

[skilly-nilly]

Nevertheless, if you want to read a Celtic Scholar from a Uni try this link
http://celt.net/Celtic/Artisans/mills/oranmor.html (http://celt.net/Celtic/Artisans/mills/oranmor.html)



That is a lovely essay, and thanks for posting it! It shows up the weakness of googling that, even knowing there is scholarly stuff out there, all I get is the place-names. Or you're just a better googler than I.


You can say, "The Druids believed in the world as a sentient being which expressed itself in singing, a concept they called Oran Mor.", and then get embroiled in a discussion of whether or not the Druids did have this belief. :reading: With footnotes.
I could have said that, but I didn't. Reread and you will see. ["recently read that this word exists and is part of Celtic/Druidic lore,"] is not the same as your quote above.
Put no words into this mouth, please, it has enough words in there already.:D

Or you can say, "I hear the whole world sing the Great Song, which would be Amhrán Mór in Irish Gaelic." , and then get other people (me for instance) talking about their perceptions of the World Song. :ringaroun


I didn't mean "you, Phi" I meant generic you, youse, yizzes...I actually thought about using 'one' but that sounds soooo formal and instructiveish I decided not to---sorry for not using a clearer pronoun.



It could also be "Oran" Mor according to:

Once you cleared up the word, I just looked it up in the dictionaries I have at hand. 'Oran' wasn't there, so I looked up 'song' going the other way. I don't speak Gaelic, I just look words up.


In the rest of your post, I'm fearful that you're cross. I didn't mean to be confrontational or to be dismissive of the importance of poetry or Imbas.

You just, in your op, used a term I'm not familiar with. I looked it up. It didn't make any sense, so I asked about it. You substituted another term I'm not familiar with. I looked it up. Still not much.

My point was more that the poetry and Imbas are not amplified by using unexplained unfamiliar terms that nit-picking your unfamiliar terms.

So... now, do you want to discuss more esoteric matters, and stay with the gripping hand's way for a bit? ;)[/QUOTE]

Are you peeved?? Have I said anything malapropos??

If so, I'm sorry and it was unintentional, skilly-nilly

[Phi]

So... now, do you want to discuss more esoteric matters, and stay with the gripping hand's way for a bit? ;)Are you peeved?? Have I said anything malapropos??

If so, I'm sorry and it was unintentional, skilly-nilly[/QUOTE]Of course not! :nonono: As a matter of fact, I spent some time today reading your links and really enjoying what I was reading. You really have a way with words and descriptions and also a real wit. Should probably author a novel...

Just getting all the footnotey questions raised settled so we could all, maybe, move on to the new.:chatty:
Didn't intend to sound cross. :seehearsp

But I must admit, every time I read that you ride that buffalo of "that's not quite right" I do wonder if you are intending to correct everyone else's posts...why do you have that on your siggy?:whatgives So, maybe that is coming through to me, but as more a challenge than an offense, and I do love a good duel of wits sometimes.:hmmmmm:



Sooo...do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you?
Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"
Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?
When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination?
Do you ever feel like you are reading something? Being instructed?
Does information come through in music or sound other than voice?
Was there a time when this started, or an event that happened after which you had this "gift/curse" ? Do you recall a beginning of it? Did you cultivate it?

Okay that's enough questions for one post. :crylaugh:
Get the feeling you're being interviewed? Don't mean to do that either, so feel free not to answer anything you are not comfortable answering, or PM if you'd rather not do so here...:bouncysmi
One more thing...:D : This I fully agree with, and I hear the trees too.
Skilly said [ I personally feel no doubt what-so-ever that the World is indeed Singing. I call this phenomonon 'The World Song', and I listen to it often. I edged into this perception by way of hearing the trees Singing (I call this the trees Singing the Great Ohm, because that's what I hear). I feel that this is what is described as 'Angel-Song' in more Xian mystics, but my perception is that all of the trees join into a choral group that involves all of the Earth. And ourselves, if we allow ourselves to engage. Many cultures reference this, and often specifically as Singing. Also as Rightness and Balance.]
For myself, I hear some differences in the songs of different trees and sometimes it comes through as a beautiful harmony I can sing too. This differential melody-hearing and singing is a fairly recent development in my hearing/perception and a delight.

[skilly-nilly]

Didn't intend to sound cross. :seehearsp

I'm glad to hear that....I am extremely shy and non-confrontational irl, and it ocassionally seeps over to my posting. :excuseme:


But I must admit, every time I read that you ride that buffalo of "that's not quite right" I do wonder if you are intending to correct everyone else's posts...why do you have that on your siggy?:whatgives So, maybe that is coming through to me, but as more a challenge than an offense, and I do love a good duel of wits sometimes.:hmmmmm:

I lurk with the GingerWitches, I ride the buffalo of 'that's not quite correct'

It's a little convoluted......Some time ago, I was the mod on a multi-religious board, and one of the members (a devout Roman Catholic) has a gease to always respond to the statement that Catholics worship the V. Mary. Eventually, it became a joke for the core posters. Some newer poster would make an unguarded statement about the Madonna, and I would post, "Look out! Here comes Roo on her Rinocerous!" She, I hasten to add, found this funny while also correcting the poster on Catholic dogma.

I am a biologist, and believe that the theory of evolution is fundamentially true. I also know a lot more about it than many people who disbelieve it utterly. So some poster would make a statement about the theory of evolution that was horribly wrong, and I would post back; invariably begining, "That's not quite correct...." So everyone, including Roo, insisted that I was also riding some big lumbering beast of a gease, who turned out to be a buffalo.

My gease is not actually tied to evolution, but is for factual correctness. Associated with the other unfortunate gease I have which is that everything I say has to be true. So I am extremely aware of wording and exactness, and it bothers me when someone states, as a fact, something which is not quite correct. I don't have a problem with opinions, although I do like to have opinion strings be logically consistant.
Would it sound better if the buffalo's name was 'factual exactness'? That would express ze's name as well as 'that's not quite correct'......

Anyhow, when the GingerWitches were discussing identifying, I disallowed myself as a member because I am old enough to be their mummie and have white hair (In the title part of the post format over on the drivers' side it says that I am an Irish Witch and Fake White Ginger) At that time the GingerWitches were using the Niddstang(sp?) Pony o' Doooom but I am not techey enough to put it into my sig, so I fell back on wordiness. In my world, sentences have at least two parts, so I included the buffalo for balancing the statements.

I make a fundamental distinction between fact and opinion.



:boquet: Must putter slightly before posting about Imbas.

:bubbles: , skilly-nilly

Can you tell the story of:
Put NO Horns on my head... (I'm Cappy enough already)
for your part?

[skilly-nilly]

Sooo...do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you?

The possibility is always there in the background, although the more I am fully 'present' the less I am 'there'. I feel and refer to trance state as 'snap' because of the transportation into a different venue--a noticably different kind of perception (as you ask about below).

Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"

I don't feel that I am the Being-in-charge at all. On the one hand it is who I am, and so a part of me; on the other, it is wholly 'other'.

Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?

The difference in perception from the one to the other makes it impossible to confuse the two. If I was talking about it with someone else, I would say, "The message is" for the first and "My opinion is" for the second.

When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination? Do you ever feel like you are reading something? Being instructed?

I have, on thankfully few occasions, actually seen pictures but mostly I 'think' of statements in a complete format (no editing) which fall into my mind with a kind of etherial clang.
I describe the sound element of trance communication as 're-verb' because it has a kind of hollow echo-ey quality. When my husband was contacted and we were trying to distinguish craziness from communication, I used that term and he immediately understood and described his auditory feature as 'hum' as in the sound of wind in high-tension wires.

Does information come through in music or sound other than voice?

It is obvious from this question and your description of the World-Song that you are far more musically talented than I. I have a numeric disability that also has a componant of extreme musical non-giftedness. Tone Deaf is close-- although I can distinguish higher from lower I cannot hear the relationships between notes. I am, however, an empath and so I can 'feel' the trees and the World-Song as an emotion.

Was there a time when this started, or an event that happened after which you had this "gift/curse" ? Do you recall a beginning of it? Did you cultivate it?

Always, in a greater or lesser amount (eg if I was paying attention or not)
Since forming a dedication bond with the Goddess who speaks to me, I cultivate it; although I don't think it's turn-off-able either.



Okay that's enough questions for one post. :crylaugh:
And what are your answers??? :bouncingb


For myself, I hear some differences in the songs of different trees and sometimes it comes through as a beautiful harmony I can sing too. This differential melody-hearing and singing is a fairly recent development in my hearing/perception and a delight.


That is lovely to contemplate, although the actuality would be beyond my musical perceptions.
You have a gift.......
:havinapar , skilly-nilly

[Phi]

Can you tell the story of:
Put NO Horns on my head... (I'm Cappy enough already)
for your part?

Sure! LOL
That dates back to when MW did the male/female red marker things. It was a joke that I just haven't bothered to remove, mostly because I am not too techy myself. At first I jokingly resisted the horney(!) marker, saying that a Capricorn already has horns enough...then I went ahead and used it so folks would know I was a female because so many would say "he" in reference to my writing prior to getting my avatar and banner.

Silly comment, really, and I guess I should remove it now because it really no longer makes either a statement of (comical) resistance nor much sense. ;)

As to your age reference, we might be about the same age.
I also have a Biology degree, but surprisingly for most, I have some reservations about evolutionary theory! Maybe later on we can discuss and share on that too.

Goes to show that we might have quite a few things in common.:shift:
(Appreciate the edit comment, :tongueout LOL)

[Phi]

do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you?
It's always here.
(But I did have a time this winter when I could not hear the trees sing, just a hum. I just didn't know why. It disturbed me greatly. Then I realized, "stupid, do you sing while you sleep? It's winter already, these trees are sleeping!" Then I heard a pine. Then a cedar. And I smiled.)
Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"
It's always on, and part of everything. I can't compartmentalize it, though I have tried.
Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?
I haven't tried very hard since one informs the other. I usually use both together to try to help someone when I am asked to do so. I suppose if I were ever to charge for such, I might need to separate the two so I wouldn't be defrauding someone though by saying I was getting a message from elsewhere and using my own intuition. I also have a tendency to use both my biological eyes and "the sight" together, not making attempt to separate what I see from what I seer. For me using all my senses together with the input from Imbas is my best effort to accomplish my goal of helping someone, and since I have no reason to "prove" how I do it, I haven't needed to separate one from the other.


When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination?
Usually it is visionary/combination for me but I "see" in my mind and not like a halucination, although there have rare occasions of hearing a voice. I do hear music. Sometimes a "ringing in my ears" kind of buzzing noise before trancing. But my trancing just looks like I'm daydreaming or that I am in deep thought to other people, I'm told.
Sometimes I see what I would rather not see, unpleasant things. You take the good with the bad. I "see" bad people.
(:geez: LOL that sounded like "I see dead people," from the movie.)
There I get like a superimposed and very brief image of "evil" over what seems to be a perfectly normal face.
Sometimes I get just a "doom" feeling, and relax with it, go with it, and allow myself to be lead to book/net/TV to find out what is wrong. Sometimes what I am lead to is very frightening or very negative. That is why I refer to this a gift/curse. I see death before it comes to some I love. That is very very sad and hard. Many things I see seem to have little purpose to me, I mean yes it's true, yes it happens. But I have no way to help or avoid or do anything with the info, you know?
So for anyone reading this post, it is not always a joy. It is not always to be desired.
But the music? YES always a joy.

Do you ever feel like you are reading something? Being instructed?
I asked this one because I haven't ever felt I was reading, though I have often heard people speak of "reading," so I wondered about other people's experience of it. I have had many dreams of being instructed. Sometimes I come out of a daydream state when I am alone talking as if I am answering questions/asking questions.
Does information come through in music or sound other than voice?
The music seems to have a message, partly just as all good music does ie:sadness/longing, blissful joy, etcetera; but often after having listened or sung I come back to find I have new information or new poetry to write that I didn't have prior. Not that I feel "inspired" so much as "gifted" with the information by the song. In other words, I don't have to think about it or work on the wording of it it just flows out. Rather like a musical instrument being played by a knowledgable musician...the instrument is just the device for expression of something that comes from the mind/heart/soul of the musician. I am the instrument, but the mind/heart/soul and thought is from the song itself.

This reminds me of what you said about the complete thought, no edit and the clang. Same for me, but no clang. :)

Was there a time when this started, or an event that happened after which you had this "gift/curse" ? Do you recall a beginning of it? I always had this, but have read of persons who started having it after near death experiences, or after some significant event so they have a "beginning" which I don't. Sometimes it is hard in a way to never have been without it, because it makes it a little more difficult to relate to people who don't experience it. I think if I had ever had a time when I didn't , I might be better able to explain it to others, you know?
Did you cultivate it?
Not really. I denied it, pushed it aside, tried not to hear or feel or see what I felt, heard, saw. For a long time actually. Of course I couldn't turn it off, but I did ignore it or tell myself it was just my vivid imagination. Culture did not accept it, science said it did not exist, religion said it was evil. But there it was, just the same. Once I accepted it as real, I didn't need to cultivate it much, there was so much I had "held inside" that it flooded out in abundance.

By the way, I always had little musical ability too. Told I always sang off-key.
But once I began to sing with the trees, I was told by a musician that my voice was beautiful and uncanny. So maybe it is not my talent or ability, but the fact that I give my instrument of voice to a great musician?

[Ron]

You guys are fun. :) You both deserve a hug from the rhys. *hug* (No I am not drunk - I am tired and in need of social contact)

[Phi]

You guys are fun. :) You both deserve a hug from the rhys. *hug* (No I am not drunk - I am tired and in need of social contact)
Here's a hug back Mayor Rhys! :hugz:

[skilly-nilly]

You guys are fun. :) You both deserve a hug from the rhys. *hug* (No I am not drunk - I am tired and in need of social contact)
I cannot send you karma, but here's a neatly-dressed hug back for you....
:nicetie:


(But I did have a time this winter when I could not hear the trees sing, just a hum. I just didn't know why. It disturbed me greatly. Then I realized, "stupid, do you sing while you sleep? It's winter already, these trees are sleeping!" Then I heard a pine. Then a cedar. And I smiled.)

I also hear evergreens as 'humming' :fpartyhat


Usually it is visionary/combination for me but I "see" in my mind and not like a halucination, although there have rare occasions of hearing a voice. I do hear music. Sometimes a "ringing in my ears" kind of buzzing noise before trancing. But my trancing just looks like I'm daydreaming or that I am in deep thought to other people, I'm told.
Sometimes I see what I would rather not see, unpleasant things. You take the good with the bad. I "see" bad people.
(:geez: LOL that sounded like "I see dead people," from the movie.)
There I get like a superimposed and very brief image of "evil" over what seems to be a perfectly normal face.
Sometimes I get just a "doom" feeling, and relax with it, go with it, and allow myself to be lead to book/net/TV to find out what is wrong. Sometimes what I am lead to is very frightening or very negative. That is why I refer to this a gift/curse. I see death before it comes to some I love. That is very very sad and hard. Many things I see seem to have little purpose to me, I mean yes it's true, yes it happens. But I have no way to help or avoid or do anything with the info, you know?
So for anyone reading this post, it is not always a joy. It is not always to be desired.
But the music? YES always a joy.

I don't have pre-cognition, so mostly I get messages about other people that have to do with facing up to unpleasant truths. Oddly, most people don't mind it too much.


Did you cultivate it?
Not really. I denied it, pushed it aside, tried not to hear or feel or see what I felt, heard, saw. For a long time actually. Of course I couldn't turn it off, but I did ignore it or tell myself it was just my vivid imagination. Culture did not accept it, science said it did not exist, religion said it was evil. But there it was, just the same. Once I accepted it as real, I didn't need to cultivate it much, there was so much I had "held inside" that it flooded out in abundance.

That's interesting, because I had a lot more trouble coming to terms with being an empath than a mystic. Partly because I was exposed to history intensivly and there is more of an historical pathway for mysticism/Imbas. Also, I was raised in a repressive household where talking about oneself was not encouraged, so I had no idea that other people didn't see/hear visions---people in archaic literature often base their actions on messages received from external, etherial sources, so why shouldn't I?
I just didn't talk about it, as I didn't talk about most things that were important to me.
On the other hand, though, when people said things that were in conflict with their emotive states, I found it very confusing, and generally would comment on it. And cause myself a lot of trouble, so for a long time I described myself as 'very sensitive to body language' rather than 'an empath'.


By the way, I always had little musical ability too. Told I always sang off-key.
But once I began to sing with the trees, I was told by a musician that my voice was beautiful and uncanny. So maybe it is not my talent or ability, but the fact that I give my instrument of voice to a great musician?

I'm afraid that my lack of musical ability is un-fix-able. ;)
I was talking with a musical friend (who has heard me sing), about the link between not being able to do arithmatic and not being able to sing. She laughed and said that it was apparant to anyone hearing me sing that I had no perception of musical notes what-so-ever, and although I was "very enthusiastic" and pleasant to hear, it had nothing to do with music per se. I add and subtract on my fingers as well.

I like rythmic, simplistic music :headphone , skilly-nilly

[Phi]

:woot: Skilly said [That's interesting, because I had a lot more trouble coming to terms with being an empath than a mystic. Partly because I was exposed to history intensivly and there is more of an historical pathway for mysticism/Imbas. Also, I was raised in a repressive household where talking about oneself was not encouraged, so I had no idea that other people didn't see/hear visions---people in archaic literature often base their actions on messages received from external, etherial sources, so why shouldn't I?
I just didn't talk about it, as I didn't talk about most things that were important to me.
On the other hand, though, when people said things that were in conflict with their emotive states, I found it very confusing, and generally would comment on it. And cause myself a lot of trouble, so for a long time I described myself as 'very sensitive to body language' rather than 'an empath'.]

For me, the empath part was easiest to deal with, because being empathic in some ways was rather a family trait. It was a regular occurance in my family to have one or the other say "She/he is speaking out of both sides of his/her mouth" or "Butter wouldn't melt in her mouth," or some other anachronism meaning that we could see the real emotion/purpose behind someone's false-speech or false-smile. Also, "I could see the pain behind the smile."That was accepted as a norm for us, and it wasn't until much later that I realized that I seemed to see it more than other family members. Early experience: I can recall from toddler days having intense dislike for a man my Dad was talking to and knowing that that man was evil bad and nasty; this impression received while holding on to my Daddy's knees to stand. I also sensed that Daddy did not know this. I knew when my mother didn't want to be holding me as a babe and when she did...usually she did not. (Two older sibs: to much else to do, and resentment that she had a baby unplanned. But then she was always an extremely easy read.)

My introduction to history was also rather early on, but was primarily the dry kind from enclyclopeadia reading, :reading:but informed by the reading of myth, fairytale, legend and the many historical novels my parents liked to read. Anything on the bookshelves was fair game, for my parents did not really pay much attention to me or to what I read. (I liked to find a quiet spot, hidden away from the rest to read anyway) and they did not realize that I was reading at an advanced level at such an early age. By five or six I was reading on a high school level at least, by 1st grade I was so tested. So I self-educated on many things, as many things as one could find in an encyclopaedia. At twelve I won a set of Brittanica, so I had fresh and more advanced encyclopaedia to read at that point. (When I say encyclopaedia reading, I mean that I liked to start with A and read to Z, all volumes.) :reading:I didn't realize that that was not how everyone used encyclopaedias. :huh:

Fortunately we also had Childcraft, a 15 to 20 volume set of books, that started with mother goose and went thru fairytales and myths, with the last few volumes being meant for the parents...so I had an early intro to Grimm's tales, poetry, mythology...followed by child psychology and human sexuality!:spinner:

I recall feeling a sort of bliss the first time I went to a library and discovered that they would let me borrow books._happydanc I state these things as a matter of explaining myself and how I developed, which also might be partly explained by Imbas from birth...no one taught me to read.

I also lived in a household in which I was discouraged from talking about myself, this mostly because I had a very talkative older sister who resented any attention I brought on myself so much that she abused me with kickings and beatings if I drew too much attention from my parents. So I just hid & read, and talked little as a small child. Later on I talked more, but the habit of not talking much about things important to me was already instilled by then.



I gather that you also were an early reader/prodigy type and possibly the quiet type. I wonder if most people who have the sight begin in similar fashion? And if so I wonder if the sight causes the quickness of learning or if the quickness of learning opens one to the sight? Then again, perhaps Imbas taught me to read, and enabled me to read very fast and comprehend it.:huh:

I noted that you believe in the Jungian concept of a collective conscience, but not the Jungian concept of myth as the cause of god/ess being the same/similar in all cultures but expressed in different ways..I know there is a Jungian term for this concept, but can't think of it.
I think perhaps Jung was a bit of a mystic and tried to express his own Imbas and intuitive thinking in a way that "Science-as-God" rationalists would accept. My personal jury is still out regarding which of his concepts I accept and which were corrupted by his need to fit mysticism into "Science-as-God."

I love to study the fairytales and even nursery rhymes as tales that had real meanings passed down thru generations. I have read many interpretations relating some to myths and old religions. I believe that this relationship is correct, but find some of the interpretations lacking.

Empathic, somewhat telepathic, precognitive, slightly psychokinetic are some of the modern terms that might apply to me. How about you? Anyone else, jump in here too.

Any comments on any of my statements? Comparisons or questions?
Also another question for you and anyone else who wants to respond: How do you see Magic and Ritual in connection to Imbas in your experience? Do you feel psy is prerequisite to magic?


Also, Skilly, would you define Imbas in your concept of that term? Just want to be sure that when we use the word we are speaking of the same thing.

[skilly-nilly]

I wonder if most people who have the sight begin in similar fashion? And if so I wonder if the sight causes the quickness of learning or if the quickness of learning opens one to the sight? Then again, perhaps Imbas taught me to read, and enabled me to read very fast and comprehend it.:huh:

Yes, I was a spontaneous reader. I had never thought to connect this to an other-worldly source; the accepted theory is that youngest children are exposed to early-learning texts, paid less attention to/less scheduled, and are less affected by parental expectations (ie the belief that children cannot teach themselves to read)

The idea that Imbas taught us to read is new and intriguing...:hmmmmm:

Irish folk-lore credits having eyebrows that meet in the middle as giving one the ability to "see into the other world". That has always been my supposition----because, of course, having eyebrows that meet in the middle is familial as is 'sight'. :rollingla


I noted that you believe in the Jungian concept of a collective conscience, but not the Jungian concept of myth as the cause of god/ess being the same/similar in all cultures but expressed in different ways..I know there is a Jungian term for this concept, but can't think of it.
I think perhaps Jung was a bit of a mystic and tried to express his own Imbas and intuitive thinking in a way that "Science-as-God" rationalists would accept. My personal jury is still out regarding which of his concepts I accept and which were corrupted by his need to fit mysticism into "Science-as-God."

Those personnas are called 'archtypes'; that is, the template from which the individual god-form peels off. For example, Jesus and Dyonisis(sp?) are examples of the Reborn God; Bridé and the Virgin Mary are examples of the Great Mother; etc.

On the one hand, I believe that the Gods/desses individuate and do not conflate. Substitution, in my religion, is not possible. Uncontestably, of course, various Gods/desses are similar, but I don't think they can be wholly seperated from their cultures; however similar the personna or the cultures are.

On the other hand, I also believe that each person's perceptions inform what they see---Jung's perceptions are his and not universal. He had a personal wish to not include Magic and inculturation in his belief-system, so the system he 'saw' did not include those elements. So what we 'see' is always skewed to our perceptions and pre-dispositions. I also believe that the essential Nature of God/s/dess/desses is unable to be wholly perceived by human understanding.

So, on the gripping hand, whether there is an ÜberGod from which all Gods/desses peel off like transparancies or whether They all live, as individuals, in the Yellow Submarine; chatting, making bets, and trading assignments as They please isn't really important to me and my perceptions (I think) because I couldn't really tell the difference anyway.
I just act as if I am speaking to an individual because I perceive an Individual Talking to me.


I love to study the fairytales and even nursery rhymes as tales that had real meanings passed down thru generations. I have read many interpretations relating some to myths and old religions. I believe that this relationship is correct, but find some of the interpretations lacking.
Bruno Bettleheim is good, although not about Magic.


Also, Skilly, would you define Imbas in your concept of that term? Just want to be sure that when we use the word we are speaking of the same thing.

That's a big question/defination.

I use "Fire-in-the-Head' as the quick term.
I see Imbas as working on 2 levels:
The estatic communication with Deity, often resulting in 'messages' (for oneself or others) or 'instruction' or 'insight'.
And the creative impulse that springs from 'elsewhere' without perceived effort on the human level.
Both resulting in a greater level of understanding of what's going on.

Here is a good reference; quite (imo) footnotey:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4715/imbasforosnai

"his supernatural knowledge - his imbas"

"Imbas Forosna, 'Manifestation that enlightens' "

Yourself? :fpoke: , skilly-nilly

[Phi]

[QUOTE=skilly-nilly]Yes, I was a spontaneous reader. I had never thought to connect this to an other-worldly source; the accepted theory is that youngest children are exposed to early-learning texts, paid less attention to/less scheduled, and are less affected by parental expectations (ie the belief that children cannot teach themselves to read)

The idea that Imbas taught us to read is new and intriguing...:hmmmmm:

New and intriguing to me too! Of course, reincarnation, ancestral knowledge with human biological memory (as I believe will be soon discovered: similar to bird/fish/butterfly migrations memory:ethology) may be in the mix too. Lamark was not so far off base, I think, and further research will eventually show a biological proof.

Irish folk-lore credits having eyebrows that meet in the middle as giving one the ability to "see into the other world". That has always been my supposition----because, of course, having eyebrows that meet in the middle is familial as is 'sight'. :rollingla
You've got me feeling between my eyebrows for hair!:wtf::rollingla

Now about the Jungian archetype: you are right when you say it means the primordial thought beginnings of god/goddess, but as a construct of the individual brain/psyche, it also can be the original pattern for other well distributed (throughout the thought expressed in myth, legend, custom, story and literature of human kind) concepts. Many of these archetypes were indeed seen as god/goddess, but some were relegated to fae, dwarf, hag, elf, werewolf, vampire, "wicked witch" and so on. Of course for some of these, the god/goddess of one culture was demoted by the conquering culture to these "lesser" states, but some seem to have existed or been created within the "collective conscious" without having a clear historical connection to deity.
For me however it is more the chicken and egg controversy: did the human "collective conscious" create or did it remember. Which came first the "collective conscious" or the deity? I think the deity came first. I would likely think, then, of a "collective memory, " when referring to deity.
As you also believe, I don't think we can really know all there is to know about deity.
And so, it is very sad that so many wars have been fought over dogmas regarding a concept humankind cannot really fully conceive.
Recalling the story of the blind men and the elephant, where each was "right" in some small part, yet still blind to the whole of it: For centuries, blind men such as these war and kill to prove each himself correct! And in so doing, lose, in effect, what bit of rightness each had discovered from his own personal sense of touch, by exchanging the rightness/righteous for self-righteousness.

I would not begin to argue it, but my own personal gnosis is that there is a dual presence, that is actually one (dual only that it can be seen by us as goddess or as god or both, though that is our human problem in conceptualizing, and not necessarily a cornerstone of the deity itself)
Such presence while being beyond our comprehension, reveals itself to us in ways we can somewhat comprehend. (I mention the duality only because culture has crushed the "yang" out in most concepts of the "God" of the current majority, to such an extent that without mentioning it I might be misunderstood entirely.)
Dogmas are antithetical to faith for me, because it means ignoring the manner in which god/ess speaks to me directly in favor of blindly accepting the ways it might have spoken to another, or worse, in favor of accepting political manipulations of the gnosis of ancients for greed or power. (Dogmas are also antithetical to "faith" in the old Irish sense of that word.)
Also, because of my aversion to dogma, I cannot say that any one way of connection is wrong, nor that god/goddess must be one or many to another's personal gnosis. "You must believe this way" is entirely an invention of man, I think: and is the great (archtypically speaking) hubris. For a person decides to act as deity when s/he supposes to tell another person how s/he must believe and interact with deity, no?

You might really enjoy, if you haven't read it already Women Who Run with the Wolves Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. I highly recommend it to you as I think you fit the archetype too, wild woman! (And that is a compliment):hehehehe: It is not new and so a copy can be bought for little money on the net. Pinkola uses "fairy tales" "old wives tales" "fireside tales" to help with personal psychological/spiritual strengthening for women in our culture, therefore she tells and interprets quite a few.

Thank you very much for the link. I want to study it in depth before too much comment, except that it brings to light (for me) another term for receiving from the song...

I think a discussion of the topics/terminology of this site is very pertinent to this forum, don't you? But you are right it is very footnotey:sick: . Of course it had to be for the purpose it was written...for Oxford, wasn't it?



(On defining Imbas:))

Skilly [That's a big question/defination.

I use "Fire-in-the-Head' as the quick term.
I see Imbas as working on 2 levels:
The estatic communication with Deity, often resulting in 'messages' (for oneself or others) or 'instruction' or 'insight'.
And the creative impulse that springs from 'elsewhere' without perceived effort on the human level.
Both resulting in a greater level of understanding of what's going on.


"his supernatural knowledge - his imbas"

"Imbas Forosna, 'Manifestation that enlightens' "

Yourself?]
I couldn't agree more._handclappbrava!

I like that you distinguish imbas from Imbas Forosna, with the use of lower case/upper case.

I usually don't use the word imbas for general "his supernatural knowledge" at all, because many people don't connect their knowledge to deity, and some don't have supernatural knowledge from any manifestation that enlightens but rather from Harry Potter.:nyah: Now I love Harry, and one could do worse for enlightenment, but a manifestation it isn't.

Guess I feel it is a special sacred sort of term, huh?I never realized I thought that until now.
Apparently you do too, otherwise you probably wouldn't have bothered to hit the shift key for it. :uhhuhuh:

Forgot one: :fpoke: :lol:
Also another question for you and anyone else who wants to respond: How do you see Magic and Ritual in connection to Imbas in your experience? Do you feel psy is prerequisite to magic?

[Phi]

Another note: I wondered why I committed the slip of using "Senchas Mor" instead of "Oran Mor" in the beginning of this thread. "Now where did that come from?" I asked.

I find it highly interesting that the Senchas Mor Introduction contains a reference to Imbas.

Perhaps in my wondering and asking questions in my mind about the Oran Mor and its origins in written ancient works, Imbas informed me that a starting point for looking for written reference might be found under "Senchas Mor" and its glosses and beginning information about Imbas Forosnai? So typing Senchas Mor instead of Oran Mor might have been similar to a "Freudian slip" between my intentional conscious mind and the Imbas informing it.

And in fact, when looking over an article about Imbas Forosnai, (the one you gave link for)there is the temn laida discribed, the 'illumination of song.'

An interesting synchronicity, at least! and the kind of thing that reassures me that my Imbas is "always on.":braindrai I am just not always translating its meaning very well.8O
It might also illustrate to anyone wondering: why, if Imbas is always informing, I can still make mistakes!
“Imbas Forosnai”by Nora K. Chadwick,Scottish Gaelic Studies, vol 4, part 2;Oxford University Press (1935)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4715/imbasforosnai

"The etymology of the words has been discussed recently by Professor Thurneysen, who cites an early gloss in the Introduction to the Senchas Mor, where it is stated that the word imbas is a compositional form with fius(s), 'knowledge,' or with the neuter fess, just as so-us, so-as, literally, 'good knowledge,' often with reference to poetry."

So, here is how Imbas and research works together for me sometimes, as I see it:

1.I seek an answer to something, in this case where in ancient texts can I find "Oran Mor?":confused:
2.I get a need, urge or call to look up something else: in this case "Senchas Mor" (the urge created by my using Senchas Mor when meaning Oran Mor, which I now think might have been Imbas speaking after all, because)
3.Had I started searching Senchas Mor, I would have eventually come up with Imbas Forosnai as it relates to the poetry. Searching Imbas Forsonai and Irish ancient poetry together would eventually bring up the article above as well as other resources. Which searching Oran Mor would not have done.
4.Which in the end, leads one way or another to finding the answer to the original quest, only not as "Oran Mor" but rather as Temn Laida, a related term.

As I said, the Imbas of another can inform mine/me. In this case, Skilly created a shortcut by posting an article link which contained both Senchas Mor, and Temn Laida, which is my first ancient reference to the Oran Mor.:sunny:

So Skilly, in addition to a delightful exchange of ideas, you have created a shortcut to info I sought, and helped with my original discouragement as well! I thought the Imbas was not working well, and was discouraged regarding other things as well which this article is clearing up for me quite nicely!:smile:

The Jungian mention also had me researching Jung again a bit where I came up with other jewels that are helping my own block and discouragement.

It always fascinates me how these things can work together.

[Seren_]

Phi,

This article might be relevant to you:

http://www.madstone.com/Pages/cauldronpoesy.html

[Ron]

I don't mean to sound nity-picky or pollitically correct, but I think that there is consistency of subject problem, in the poem, specifically on line 2 (where "you" is inconsistent with the singular "thou"). However, it might be defeated quickly with the author's carte blanche exercise of poetic license.

[odubhain]

<snip>
:crazyman: On the other hand, I personally feel no doubt what-so-ever that the World is indeed Singing. I call this phenomonon 'The World Song', and I listen to it often. I edged into this perception by way of hearing the trees Singing (I call this the trees Singing the Great Ohm, because that's what I hear). I feel that this is what is described as 'Angel-Song' in more Xian mystics, but my perception is that all of the trees join into a choral group that involves all of the Earth. And ourselves, if we allow ourselves to engage. Many cultures reference this, and often specifically as Singing. Also as Rightness and Balance.

So the discussion can be about anthropological reference of what the Druids believed or called things, or about the unification of the Whole Earth in glad expression. You see the skew?

You can say, "The Druids believed in the world as a sentient being which expressed itself in singing, a concept they called Oran Mor.", and then get embroiled in a discussion of whether or not the Druids did have this belief. :reading: With footnotes.

Or you can say, "I hear the whole world sing the Great Song, which would be Amhrán Mór in Irish Gaelic." , and then get other people (me for instance) talking about their perceptions of the World Song. :ringaroun
<snip>There are refernces in the tales and traditions to a music that is best. In one of the modern retelling of this Fionn says that the music that is best is "the music of what is happening." By this Fionn meant that the world and Nature have a harmony that sings to the spirit.

Here's one version of what was said:And one time Finn was holding a feast at Almhuin, and he asked the chief men of the Fianna that were there what was the music they thought the best. "To be playing at games," said Conan, "that is the best music I ever heard;" for though Conan was a good hand against an enemy, there never was a man had less sense. "The music I like the best is to be talking with a woman," said Diarmuid. "My music is the outcry of my hounds, and they putting a deer to its last stand," said Lugaidh's Son. "The music of the woods is best to me," said Oisin; "the sound of the wind and of the cuckoo and the blackbird, and the sweet silence of the crane."

And then Osgar was asked, and he said: "The best music is the striking of swords in a battle." And it is likely he took after Finn in that, for in spite of all the sweet sounds he gave an account of the time he was at Conan's house, at Ceann Slieve, it used to be said by the Fianna that the music that was best with Finn was what happened.Here's another retelling by James Stephens in _Irish Fairy Tales_:Once, as they rested on a chase, a debate arose among the Fianna-Finn as to what was the finest music in the world.

"Tell us that," said Fionn turning to Oisi'n [pronounced Usheen]

"The cuckoo calling from the tree that is highest in the hedge," cried his merry son.

"A good sound," said Fionn. "And you, Oscar," he asked, "what is to your mind the finest of music?"

"The top of music is the ring of a spear on a shield," cried the stout lad.

"It is a good sound," said Fionn. And the other champions told their delight; the belling of a stag across water, the baying of a tuneful pack heard in the distance, the song of a lark, the laugh of a gleeful girl, or the whisper of a moved one.

"They are good sounds all," said Fionn.

"Tell us, chief," one ventured, "what you think?"

"The music of what happens," said great Fionn, "that is the finest music in the world."
Searles

[Ladyvi]

cant the poem just be appreciated for what it is.. most likely everyone gets something different out of it. does it really matter if it has subject problems. does it matter what exact form of celtic it is? ..

all this over a poem. ~ blink blink ~

[odubhain]

cant the poem just be appreciated for what it is.. most likely everyone gets something different out of it. does it really matter if it has subject problems. does it matter what exact form of celtic it is? ..

all this over a poem. ~ blink blink ~A poem from the lips of a File is much more than words. It can be a terrifying stream or a cutting edge. A third shape in which such a poem can appear is as a doorway. Impact over image; image over form; form over matter; matter over manner; manner over intention; intention over intuition; intuition over appearance; appearance over understanding; understanding over all. These are the qualities known as the Dúile.

Searles

[Ladyvi]

then work the poem and weave the energies see what happens. then you will get your answers.

[Phi]

WOW! Welcome to the thread, all! Delighted to have these responses to it. Keep on, more input!

First, Seren, thank you for the link. I have read over it briefly and plan to return to it for more lengthy study later. One thing I already see is that the author here states that the cauldron must be set upright to be in best position, however in order to pour out (to others) what the cauldron holds, it must be tipped. So I think that the tipping is as good a position as the upright myself, both being necessary.:smile:

Ron (Rhys) my brother! Thank thee for the help. Look back and see on the 1st post, I took thy advice, and lo! the reading is purer and sweeter :smile:

Searles, thanks for the imput too. I am given more food for thinking! I always enjoy your posts, and your advice. Any advice or word from you, sir, is always welcome to this humble bardess. (Did I just coin a word...bardess...:bigblue: ) "The music of what happens"...the music of life itself.

And Lady Vi, coming to my poem's defense! Always my friend. :hearthear Your advice is good, to take the poem and try it out.

BTW:I don't think the words of that poem are something that will hurt a person, neither terrifying nor cutting, could be a doorway to contact with the Great Song.
But do be careful in the deep wood of ticks, wildcats and of any water mocassins! To shield oneself in a "psy" way may be futile here, and may even keep the Song from coming through for you, but a pair of stout boots, a sharp eye out and some insect repellent would not be in error!:bigblue:
Keep the hood up for the journey and down for the worship, I think.

[skilly-nilly]

An interesting synchronicity, at least! and the kind of thing that reassures me that my Imbas is "always on."

So Skilly, in addition to a delightful exchange of ideas, you have created a shortcut to info I sought,

It always fascinates me how these things can work together.

I love it when that happens!
It shows us (you and me specifically and the general us) how Magic, Spirit, and Imbas work in answer to our questions and needs.

_cloud9_ , skilly-nilly

Glad you're feeling heartened as well :heyalove:

[skilly-nilly]

cant the poem just be appreciated for what it is.. most likely everyone gets something different out of it. does it really matter if it has subject problems. does it matter what exact form of celtic it is? ..

all this over a poem. ~ blink blink ~

Wholly apart from enjoying the poem, I think we enjoyed the discussion as well, in a more intellectual and less visceral way.
Both are important--defination and emotion, reference and Imbas, correct form and great feeling, meaning and emotion.

Yes, I think it matters.

Here's another retelling by James Stephens in _Irish Fairy Tales_:
Once, as they rested on a chase, a debate arose amongst the Fianna Fail as to what was the finest music in the world.

"Tell us that" said Fionn, turning to Ossian. "The cuckoo calling from the tree that is the highest in the hedge", cried his merry son. "A good sound," said Fionn. "And you, Oscar," he asked, "what is to your mind the finest of music?" "The top of music is the ringing of a spear on a sheild," cried the stout lad. "It is a good sound," said Fionn. And the other champions told their delight: The belling of a stag across water, the baying of a tuneful pack heard in the distance, the song of a lark, the laugh of a gleeful girl, or the whisper of a moved one. "They are good sounds all," said Fionn. "Tell us chief," one ventured, "what do you think?"

"The music of what happens," said great Fionn, "that is the finest music in the world."
Searles

I LOVE THAT STORY!!!!

I have loved it from the first moment I ever read it, and I tell it often.
I act as a sort of informal counselor, and one of my main points is that one can only pick from the choices offered. Picking a choice not available will only have bad results. I call this "what is".

So, when I first read this story (in the James Stephens version, which I prefer) I equated 'the music of what happens' as 'what is'.
The way I see it, there is no point in picking out some rarely-occuring sound/event as the 'best thing'; if you find the 'best thing' in now, then it's all good.

A poem from the lips of a File is much more than words. It can be a terrifying stream or a cutting edge. A third shape in which such a poem can appear is as a doorway. Impact over image; image over form; form over matter; matter over manner; manner over intention; intention over intuition; intuition over appearance; appearance over understanding; understanding over all. These are the qualities known as the Dúile.

Searles

I like that, too! Can I save it and quote it?


:fpartay: , skilly-nilly

[Phi]

I love it when that happens!
It shows us (you and me specifically and the general us) how Magic, Spirit, and Imbas work in answer to our questions and needs.

_cloud9_ , skilly-nilly
And it shows us what can happen when we share our insights through genial:chatty: conversation too! :huddle:

[skilly-nilly]

And it shows us what can happen when we share our insights through genial:chatty: conversation too! :huddle:

:fpraise: genial conversation :crown: genial conversation :dancy: genial conversation :whistle: genial conversation :cheers: genial conversation :welcome:

Yay!, skilly-nilly

[Ron]

Ron (Rhys) my brother! Thank thee for the help. Look back and see on the 1st post, I took thy advice, and lo! the reading is purer and sweeter :smile: Hail Sister, always a pleasure to be of the Serivce. :)

[Ladyvi]

sometimes when you walk the forest path. the wood sometimes seems to know that you are coming to commune and transcend spirit... word. the grass, bramble and weeds almost seem to part way the wood has a unified auric sentient pouring forth .. so much so that the animals lull into a sence of security. this is when imbas happens for me. to feel the very rotation of the earth herself, to look up at the night sky and for a split mere fraction of a second moment you feel the universe move.


i may not be as educated in celtic lore as a lot of you. i do know how it works.
way cool.

[Phi]

A poem from the lips of a File is much more than words. It can be a terrifying stream or a cutting edge. A third shape in which such a poem can appear is as a doorway. Impact over image; image over form; form over matter; matter over manner; manner over intention; intention over intuition; intuition over appearance; appearance over understanding; understanding over all. These are the qualities known as the Dúile.

Searles
This is especially good. I like that it has understanding as both last and first (above all) coming round in a circle. Thank you for this.

[Phi]

sometimes when you walk the forest path. the wood sometimes seems to know that you are coming to commune and transcend spirit... word. the grass, bramble and weeds almost seem to part way the wood has a unified auric sentient pouring forth .. so much so that the animals lull into a sence of security. this is when imbas happens for me. to feel the very rotation of the earth herself, to look up at the night sky and for a split mere fraction of a second moment you feel the universe move.


i may not be as educated in celtic lore as a lot of you. i do know how it works.
way cool.
Way cool indeed! That is beautiful! :clapping:

I have noticed the same thing! For some reason, the mosquitos even leave me be, and my wood is a lowland full of fern and wetland spots. They fly all around, but no bites. And I didn't use repellent as yet.
(I got a tick on me doing yard work, but nothing when going into the wood to commune...)

Still, I do wear my boots. Boggy ground does not go firm for me. Nor would I really want it to.

And if the creatures do decide to follow their own natures and bite, I would not blame them for following their own natures. Poison Ivy is there too, and would it hold its oils away from my legs in some show of respect? hmmm...Probably not!:nonono:

So while I do believe that there is a magic in the wood when the intent is communion, I don't think taking precautions is a bad idea. Part of the beauty of the wild is the danger of it, I believe, and I respect it fully.

I would be glad if people would follow the poetic direction, but would feel badly if they were harmed. Practicality and magic are not antithetical. A charmed sword is still a sword, you know?

[odubhain]

<snip>

I like that, too! Can I save it and quote it?


:fpartay: , skilly-nillyCertainly. I modeled the sequence after the ways that I see the qualities of the world through Ogham. Each Ogham has its own qualities and these relate to the worlds as well as to the other Ogham that surround it. I use the three Ogham diagrams from the Book of Ballymote to work out meanings and influences in a way that is similar to the so-called "Tree of Life" diagram for Cabala.

For Sky it is quarters and spirals (Roigne's Wheel Ogham)

For Land it is circles inside of circles (Finns Window)

For Sea it is the inward spiral to the center (Ferchertne's Stream Strand)

There are nine times three ways that the Ogham manifest in these structures (though with ripples, spirals and sequences, there are many, many variations). It's like the ways the trees talk to one another in the days, through the nights, and along the winds.

Searles

[Phi]

Certainly. I modeled the sequence after the ways that I see the qualities of the world through Ogham. Each Ogham has its own qualities and these relate to the worlds as well as to the other Ogham that surround it. I use the three Ogham diagrams from the Book of Ballymote to work out meanings and influences in a way that is similar to the so-called "Tree of Life" diagram for Cabala.

For Sky it is quarters and spirals (Roigne's Wheel Ogham)

For Land it is circles inside of circles (Finns Window)

For Sea it is the inward spiral to the center (Ferchertne's Stream Strand)

There are nine times three ways that the Ogham manifest in these structures (though with ripples, spirals and sequences, there are many, many variations). It's like the ways the trees talk to one another in the days, through the nights, and along the winds.

Searles
Can Finn's window be seen as spherical? Spherical diagrams are often shown as flat when drawn on paper.
Now, while land is seen by us as flat, it's aura is not flat and the underground is part of land too isn't it? Just curious, as that thought did flash through my mind.

[odubhain]

Can Finn's window be seen as spherical? Spherical diagrams are often shown as flat when drawn on paper.
Now, while land is seen by us as flat, it's aura is not flat and the underground is part of land too isn't it? Just curious, as that thought did flash through my mind.I like the idea of Fionn's Window being spherical in that I consider Fionn's Window to represent the NOW. It is a bubble of reality as it exists around one and also within one. Attempting to see these two perspectives at the same time is a meditation that places one at a crossroads between realities.

On a simpler basis, Fionn's Window to me represents levels of meaning and ways of looking at the world. The outer rings or circles are the physical world while the center is the place of reality creation. One arrives at the center by going through boundaries of physical, mental, spiritual, magical, and masterful accomplishments. One travels the rings or circles to obtain a rounder (more full) perspective on each level or way of perceiving.

This arrangement of meanings, perceptions and levels is the shaping factor for the meanings I ascribe to the Ogham of the present or NOW (the Music of What Happens).

Searles

[The Festival Spirit]

I have been on this site around twenty hours or more, I really should sleep but I just had to stand up and applaud you guys, I have read some of this thread and possibly most of the related and linked threads (and some more) I have still not read all the posts on this thread or any of the others I have started, I have been Captivated, Motivated and Fascinated. I am reading other peoples views, opinions, thoughts, Imbas, questions and statements, I am learning so much about them, but the most wonderful thing is I have learnt so much about myself today. Thank you very much all of you, I feel I will be in the right place for a while, this is my first day home after almost a month of travelling and meeting remarkable new friends, culminating in A celebration of the summer solstice at Stonehenge Wiltshire England and a week at Worthy Farm in Somerset England, I was attending The Glastonbury Festival of contemporary performing Arts, I have met some remarkable people in the last 7-10 days and the best meeting I'm aware of was when I had found myself ......... at last !

I'm so pleased and I have never felt so positive in all of my life,

Two threads I have started reading today have already made sense of the last ten years of my life, I have been overwhelmed with realisation recently, the intense feeling is settling down now but it has been thrilling to say the least, I can now see with clarity which path I should be taking and this site is going to be the first stepping stone on my new journey of discovery

Greetings and best wishes to everybody here, I shall leave you with some of my favourite quotes from this thread.


................................................................................
I was delighted read about it after I had been experiencing it.

You are right, of course! I apologize for your confusion. ;)

However, in prose writing, I usually do try to mention that it is my instinct/opinion/intuition whenever I think someone might think otherwise.

Since Imbas is vitally important to me, I am eagerly anticipitating more from you about it, and the concept behind the term you used.

(Disclaimer: this post was my own writing, and my own thinking, and not from the writtten materials of anyone else, therefore, a footnote or link is not given.) I like that a lot---can we all use it ?

"Now you talk like a reasonable child," said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. "I meant by "impenetrability' that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you meant to do next, as I suppose you don't intend to stop here all the rest of your life."

"That's a great deal to make one word mean," Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

You can say, "The Druids believed in the world as a sentient being which expressed itself in singing, a concept they called Oran Mor.", and then get embroiled in a discussion of whether or not the Druids did have this belief. With footnotes.
I could have said that, but I didn't. Reread and you will see. ["recently read that this word exists and is part of Celtic/Druidic lore,"] is not the same as your quote above.

Put no words into this mouth, please, it has enough words in there already

I see any post as "snippy" which obviously sets out to prove some sort of "one-upmanship" whether it is about history with footnotes, or about "my "Great Song" is better than your "Great Song."

Not that I cannot tell the difference in what others will think is an acceptable reference. I just don't fear their ridicule should it come. Anyone attempting to heap scorn is worth scorn, and should be prepared to receive it. It is rare that I cannot back up what I say, usually in a thouroughly satisfactory manner to all, and often to the great surprise and dismay of some very literal-minded persnicketies

I have always taken both views at once, my "Imbas" is always "on" and informs my reading, writing, or research along the way. I have never performed a ritual for it, because it is always there without one. It just is and was for all this lifetime.

So, I am quite used to separating it all out for others, footnotes and all, whenever need be. (As one can imagine, a child like me learns early- in a Southern Baptist family -to look things up in an encyclopaedia so that what she has "seered" already will have the needed backup before she speaks of it, and she won't have to say how she actually came by the information in the first place) That this part is true might be partly evidenced by the poetry written last fall, which several said was very like poetry I had not read, and did not then know a title or resource so I could look it up.

You really have a way with words and descriptions and also a real wit. Should probably author a novel...


Sooo...do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you?
Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"
Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?
When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination?
Do you ever feel like you are reading something? Being instructed?
Does information come through in music or sound other than voice?
Was there a time when this started, or an event that happened after which you had this "gift/curse" ? Do you recall a beginning of it? Did you cultivate it?

I feel that this is what is described as 'Angel-Song' in more Xian mystics, but my perception is that all of the trees join into a choral group that involves all of the Earth. And ourselves, if we allow ourselves to engage.

For myself, I hear some differences in the songs of different trees and sometimes it comes through as a beautiful harmony I can sing too. This differential melody-hearing and singing is a fairly recent development in my hearing/perception and a delight.


My gease is not actually tied to evolution, but is for factual correctness. Associated with the other unfortunate gease I have which is that everything I say has to be true. So I am extremely aware of wording and exactness, and it bothers me when someone states, as a fact, something which is not quite correct. I don't have a problem with opinions, although I do like to have opinion strings be logically consistant.

I make a fundamental distinction between fact and opinion.

I have, on thankfully few occasions, actually seen pictures but mostly I 'think' of statements in a complete format (no editing) which fall into my mind with a kind of etherial clang.
I describe the sound element of trance communication as 're-verb' because it has a kind of hollow echo-ey quality. When my husband was contacted and we were trying to distinguish craziness from communication, I used that term and he immediately understood and described his auditory feature as 'hum' as in the sound of wind in high-tension wires.

It is obvious from this question and your description of the World-Song that you are far more musically talented than I. I have a numeric disability that also has a componant of extreme musical non-giftedness. Tone Deaf is close-- although I can distinguish higher from lower I cannot hear the relationships between notes. I am, however, an empath and so I can 'feel' the trees and the World-Song as an emotion.

Goes to show that we might have quite a few things in common

................................................................................

ok thats probably too much but please read my disclaimer

(Disclaimer: this post was Partly my own writing, and my own thinking, and partly quotes, because there is so much good language going on, I have not took these quotes out of context other than to show my appreciation of people that say what they mean and mean what they say!

[Phi]

Sooo, Festival Spirit...do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you? ;)
Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"
Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?
When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination?
Do you ever feel like you are reading something? Being instructed?
Does information come through in music or sound other than voice?
Was there a time when this started, or an event that happened after which you had this "gift/curse" ? Do you recall a beginning of it? Did you cultivate it?


It would greatly interest me if others would also answer this series of questions. Anybody? :)

[The Festival Spirit]

Sooo, Festival Spirit...do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you? ;)
Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"
Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?
When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination?
Do you ever feel like you are reading something? Being instructed?
Does information come through in music or sound other than voice?
Was there a time when this started, or an event that happened after which you had this "gift/curse" ? Do you recall a beginning of it? Did you cultivate it?


It would greatly interest me if others would also answer this series of questions. Anybody? :)

Hello again Phi, it was lovely to meet you, thanks for the questions, here goes

...do you also have an "open door" all the time, or does it come and go for you? ;)
Do you feel that it is part of everything you do, or is it compartmentalized for you? ie: can you turn it "off" and "on?"

I do believe it would be an open door, but I can close the door sometimes if I want to, usually, but not always.
Sometimes I am too tired or poorly to deal with it all, or concentrating on things that seem more important at the time. I am aware of times when I have ignored it at my loss and times when it has 'taken over' which can be weird as well as amazing

Do you make an effort to separate Imbas from intuition?

Hmmmm Well as I realise I need to get a better understanding of 'Imbas' I think I should wait before I answer this one.

When you "see" things is it really a sight/visual thing or more a feeling, or other sense, like hearing or something else? A combination?

It is certainly a combination of feelings and sensitvities, hearing is not my strong point in the physical, "seeing" is the way I would describe it, but I couldn't point