Perfect love and perfect trust

[Valnorran]

This phrase pops up quite frequently in Wicca. What are your opinions on what perfect love and perfect trust mean?

[Chesna]

You know that is a good question!! My only answer is this..
I think of it as how doyou enter into things or relationships when it pertains tothe God and Goddess and all things magickal. If you don't have trust in yourself,what you are doing, nothing will happen and if you do not love (or I see love as meaning respect & honor) the forces you are working with, you can create some serious choas. But this is all IMHO.. which only means something to me. I am interested in what others think!!

Chesna

[Ben Trismegistus]

This phrase pops up quite frequently in Wicca. What are your opinions on what perfect love and perfect trust mean?
Well, the phrase most often arises in a coven setting, and that (in my understanding) is where it originated. In that context, it means that no coven (and by extension, no ritual or initiation) can be successful unless all those participated can come to it in an attitude of "perfect love and perfect trust", absolutely giving themselves over to the gods and to their covenmates.

[Dio]

To me, 'perfect love and perfect trust' is a state of being in perfect balance. It is trusting all and everything to be exactly as it should be, and loving all and everything exactly as it is. Perfect Love is the lesson of the Goddess, Perfect Trust is the lesson of the God.

Even the most spiritual people I have known are not able to keep this state for long. You find that balance, and another lesson comes along to pull the rug out from under you and you have to find that balance again.

I also believe that you must first try to achieve perfect love and perfect trust on an inner, personal level in order to truly understand it.

[Pilot]

Well, the phrase most often arises in a coven setting, and that (in my understanding) is where it originated. In that context, it means that no coven (and by extension, no ritual or initiation) can be successful unless all those participated can come to it in an attitude of "perfect love and perfect trust", absolutely giving themselves over to the gods and to their covenmates.

I agree with Ben on this one

[Ron]

Ja, Ben pretty well nailed it on the head. :) It has to do with devotion and the "High Priestess'" maintaining of absolute control over her dedicants.

[Kendrah]

This phrase pops up quite frequently in Wicca. What are your opinions on what perfect love and perfect trust mean?

Perfect love and perfect trust just mean that you view things as they are. You trust that your friend will lie to you, if that is his habit. It's taking a good look at someone or something and saying, "I know what you are and I trust you to be yourself." So, it isn't a blind trust by any means. It's quite the opposite.

And Perfect love comes from still loving that person, for all their faults and failings. Knowing them and embracing them as part of the person.

One can't be without the other.

[Psypress]

To me, 'perfect love and perfect trust' is a state of being in perfect balance. It is trusting all and everything to be exactly as it should be, and loving all and everything exactly as it is. Perfect Love is the lesson of the Goddess, Perfect Trust is the lesson of the God.

Even the most spiritual people I have known are not able to keep this state for long. You find that balance, and another lesson comes along to pull the rug out from under you and you have to find that balance again.

I also believe that you must first try to achieve perfect love and perfect trust on an inner, personal level in order to truly understand it.

Very well spoken. :loveduv:
Perfect Love and Perfect Trust are not just a coven practice. They are words of advice for anyone to use.
For me, it would be a personal goal, not a community or religious goal - although they could also be used in that way. But if one has not achieved perfect love and trust within oneself, then how could one achieve it with others outside of oneself (i.e., with coven members)?

[AlAskendir]

This phrase pops up quite frequently in Wicca. What are your opinions on what perfect love and perfect trust mean?

It is a state of mind and spirit that one faithfully launches oneself into in order to do magick in a group in a circle. It is a statement of my intent that I make true in order to be in full harmony with the other participants.

[RubyRose]

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust, to me means to be faithful and dedicated. To be true to yourself and others.

[Aidron]

At first glance I find it to be admirable qualities to pursue, whether in a coven setting, for your gods or whatever else you may wish to apply it to.

However, the realist and in me cannot help but scoff at it since I disbelieve anyone is capable of perfection in any sense.

[Darkdale]

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust, to me means to be faithful and dedicated. To be true to yourself and others.

Agreed - but I think it is a committment to specific people. I do not think it is something that is extended to everyone.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ja, Ben pretty well nailed it on the head. :) It has to do with devotion and the "High Priestess'" maintaining of absolute control over her dedicants.
That's not what I said at all.

[erlynn]

I take perfect as also meaning "unconditional". Meaning that we all make mistakes but that doesn't mean we still wouldn't love each other or trust each other.

[Aidron]

I take perfect as also meaning "unconditional". Meaning that we all make mistakes but that doesn't mean we still wouldn't love each other or trust each other.


If you take perfect as unconditional, then unconditional would automatically be synonymous with perfect as well, which is of course untrue.

My point being, sometimes I think it is a bit much to take things even in a metaphorical sense and to create fictional synonymous terms to make something appear credible or either more credible.

[Dio]

At first glance I find it to be admirable qualities to pursue, whether in a coven setting, for your gods or whatever else you may wish to apply it to.

However, the realist and in me cannot help but scoff at it since I disbelieve anyone is capable of perfection in any sense.
I believe that one does not become perfect. Perfection is fluid. You may get brief moments of it, but it never stays long.

If perfection was something that could actually be achieved, there would be no point in living. We would have nothing to strive for.

[Jenne]

I'm not sure this exists in any way but in spirit. I am not even sure I believe that humans are capable of anything perfect for longer than a second or so. Sigh. Or maybe I'm feeling a bit jaded tonight.

Regardless, as used in the Wiccan religion, I believe Ben T had the right of it.

[Aidron]

I believe that one does not become perfect. Perfection is fluid. You may get brief moments of it, but it never stays long.

If perfection was something that could actually be achieved, there would be no point in living. We would have nothing to strive for.


If you gain brief moments of it, you have achieved it, even if only for a time, thus your second paragraph contradicts the first.

And furthermore, if perfection could not be achieved and the point of living is (and I am logically assuming from your post your opinion on this...) to achieve perfection then that is one life I want no part of. To strive to achieve something which cannot be achieved is wasted time, wasted resources and wasted effort. I am not, however, stating that my own philosophical idea about the proverbial point to life is to achieve perfection and thus it can be achieved.

[Kendrah]

If you gain brief moments of it, you have achieved it, even if only for a time, thus your second paragraph contradicts the first.

How did it contradict? She said it's something to strive for and we only gain it for a couple seconds. There are few things you've only done once and given up on them after a couple seconds of 'nirvana'. It's a silly notion to be fighting for something, gain it for three seconds, and think 'oh hey. I've done it. Let's go after something else.' If nothing else, it would validate all that you've been fighting for and you'd intensify your hunger for it and strive even harder.

Or at least, for most people it would. I'm not assuming I would understand how you do things.

I am not, however, stating that my own philosophical idea about the proverbial point to life is to achieve perfection and thus it can be achieved.

Good for you to say that. Do you want a cookie?

However, you did use your own philosophical idea to disprove what she just said. How does that make you any better?

[Valnorran]

Good answers from all. Thanks for clearing things up a bit. Amazing how simple something can become when you get a different perspective or two.

[DebLipp]

Well, the phrase most often arises in a coven setting, and that (in my understanding) is where it originated. In that context, it means that no coven (and by extension, no ritual or initiation) can be successful unless all those participated can come to it in an attitude of "perfect love and perfect trust", absolutely giving themselves over to the gods and to their covenmates.
dingdingdingdingdingdingding!

aaaaaand What does he win, Johnny?

:D

[Ben Trismegistus]

dingdingdingdingdingdingding!

aaaaaand What does he win, Johnny?

:D
Thank you thank you! *blush*

Aidron, I think you're being a tad too literal. No one is suggesting that if you can't love and trust absolutely perfectly, you should get out of the religion. But neither is it especially poetic to say, "perfect love and perfect trust... or at least as much as you can realistically muster."

Additionally, in the coven setting, it's a lot easier to trust and love someone implicitly in that setting and for those purposes. I have covenmates who I don't consider my close bosom friends, and who I wouldn't seek out if I were having problems, but when we're conducting ritual together, and love and trust tham all absolutely.

[Dio]

If you gain brief moments of it, you have achieved it, even if only for a time, thus your second paragraph contradicts the first.

And furthermore, if perfection could not be achieved and the point of living is (and I am logically assuming from your post your opinion on this...) to achieve perfection then that is one life I want no part of. To strive to achieve something which cannot be achieved is wasted time, wasted resources and wasted effort. I am not, however, stating that my own philosophical idea about the proverbial point to life is to achieve perfection and thus it can be achieved.
Well, if you read my original post, I didn't actually equate 'perfect love and perfect trust' with literal perfection, but with rather with balance.

But it's okay. Semantics are funny that way :)

[VroomBroom]

ok, its late/early for me and I'm just poking around in here....so don't kill me
but the line of 'perfect love and perfect trust is from the Rede, yes?
And doesn't it read 'Bide the Wiccan law ye must, in Perfect Love and Perfect Trust'
So, wouldn't that mean that you are supposed to follow the Rede with perfect love (devotion) and perfect trust (in what it says/teaches)?:whatgives

[Ben Trismegistus]

ok, its late/early for me and I'm just poking around in here....so don't kill me
but the line of 'perfect love and perfect trust is from the Rede, yes?
And doesn't it read 'Bide the Wiccan law ye must, in Perfect Love and Perfect Trust'
So, wouldn't that mean that you are supposed to follow the Rede with perfect love (devotion) and perfect trust (in what it says/teaches)?:whatgives

No, my understanding is that "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" predates the Rede. I think the phrase comes from Gardner or Valiente, and is an integral part of the Gardnerian first degree initiation.

[VroomBroom]

Hmmmmm......If I can get my eyballs to focus(on a book):lol: I'll have to go look:p



edit: well, the book I was looking for has either sprouted legs and hid, or been borrowed out:hrmm: So for now, I give:p

[VroomBroom]

Ok, since my books have gotten legs, I found this

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/gbos03.htm

And what it seems to mean (to me at least) is that if you are ready to cross over into that 'realm' (so to speak) that you should be doing it with an open mind, not covered in the doubts of the mundane world. And to trust all that you would see, feel, learn etc. To be open to whatever the HP/HPS would ask of you, to not show or have any fear within you.

*discalimer* these are the ramblings of an insomniac, have mercy:p

[BlueMoon13]

Perfect love and perfect trust just mean that you view things as they are. You trust that your friend will lie to you, if that is his habit. It's taking a good look at someone or something and saying, "I know what you are and I trust you to be yourself." So, it isn't a blind trust by any means. It's quite the opposite.

And Perfect love comes from still loving that person, for all their faults and failings. Knowing them and embracing them as part of the person.


Took the words right out of my mouth. Unfortunately,there are some out there that would take advantage of that love and trust.There's been many a time I'd wished I'd run on the knife,instead :sadeyes:

[Kodi]

to me this is what it means:

perfect love
if you don't have perfect love for yourself
and for the gods you are connected to
then how can you expect for them to love
you back and for you to be able to keep yourself
going.

perfect trust
you should trust yourself and the gods.
if you can't trust yourself and the gods who can you
trust?
you should trust that the magic and rituals you work
will work, or they won't.

in perfect love and perfect trust
to me it's balance.

[ffetcher]

you should trust that the magic and rituals you work
will work, or they won't.

If you believe that the rituals will 'work', then you'd be foolish to step into a circle unless you have perfect trust in the others in that circle. And in the context of the circle, perfect love is the flip-side of the coin: whilst it's not strictly true in, say, business negotiations, in circle I'd find it very hard to trust somebody that I didn't love, or to love somebody that I didn't trust.

blessings
ffetcher

[Sorcha2007]

I basicly will trust someone/something until they/it does something to lose my trust. I try not to judge people by who they are what they do or how they dress. You just have to let the godesess and god be apart of everything you do!

[Dawa Lhamo]

Speaking of, there is a very good article on Witchvox posted a couple days ago entitled "Is It Better to Rush Upon This Blade? (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usny&c=words&id=11990)" I'll spoil the ending for you: Only one force has ever rendered totally a weapon useless and that is love.

A single point of light dances from the core of your being along the blade, dissolving it. Faced before a ring of fire, how do you enter? Knowing nothing, fearing nothing, having only love to guide your steps, only trust can propel you forward into the unknown.

Having faced the ancient trial of blade and fire, you find yourself among equals; each of who love and trust has been their only shield.

In this way, you can work magic.I'm also reminded, in this discussion of the meaning of "perfect", of a quote by the great Dzogchen master Longchenpa:

"Since everything is but an illusion, perfect in being what it is,
having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection,one may well burst into laughter."

I tend to take the "perfect in being what it is" stance on perfect love and perfect trust. "Perfect", to me, has nothing to do with "ideal" or "untarnished" or "without flaw"... certainly not "unconditional" in the conventional sense. I think of it as "completed", "secure", "unwavering" and most importantly "real" and "concrete". It is the actual drawing of a triangle rather than the ideal of a triangle. ^_^ A drawing can never match the ideal, but it can be perfect at being what it is.

I like this article's take on it, though. Passing into the circle renders us all equals. Without being secure in our love and trust with each other, in our hearts, we can really damage ourselves and others with the Work that we do in the Circle. Hmmm... Food for thought.

[KeaErisdottir]

I like this article's take on it, though. Passing into the circle renders us all equals. Without being secure in our love and trust with each other, in our hearts, we can really damage ourselves and others with the Work that we do in the Circle. Hmmm... Food for thought.

The problem being is that PL/PT is basically impossible in a setting where insecurities and avarice hold sway. Lots of people don't love -themselves-. Lots of people are in love with the idea that the Circle is of equals, but too few will do the work to make themselves so. A disturbing number view entering the Circle as either promoting themselves in station, or demoting someone else--whch kinds destroys PL/PT coming out of the gate.

Seen it. Watched it destroy the energy of a working. Sad, whenever it comes up.

[Elderbush]

I think most of us can tell horror stories about groups gone wrong. Sometimes too people change over time and what started out as good goes sadly awry.

[Lunacie]

I think most of us can tell horror stories about groups gone wrong. Sometimes too people change over time and what started out as good goes sadly awry.

And vice-versa as well. A group that is struggling and not really making it can change when a troublesome leader or group member leaves the group (either voluntarily or otherwise). Suddenly the rest of the group finds their footing and comes together in perfect love and perfect trust.

[Ben Gruagach]

And vice-versa as well. A group that is struggling and not really making it can change when a troublesome leader or group member leaves the group (either voluntarily or otherwise). Suddenly the rest of the group finds their footing and comes together in perfect love and perfect trust.

Exactly.

I personally think that anyone who is expecting to find a "perfect" group that functions smoothly from day one, and never falters, is going to be terribly disappointed.

They say that real boats rock. Real groups have phases of good and bad, and if they are healthy groups they'll learn from those things and will adapt rather than fight or ignore. Groups are made of fallible and flawed mortals. "Perfect love and perfect trust" are worthy ideals and not necessarily something that we should expect to find manifesting 100% of the time in a given group.

[Lunacie]

Good points, Ben. Our last leader set herself up as the infallible knows-everything kind of person, when she really knew very little apparently as she didn't teach very much. I didn't have the same kind of self confidence and probably never would have become a leader if the situation hadn't been "do or die" (the death of the group that is). Anyway, my point is that I do make mistakes and I honestly admit to them, and the group has told me that they appreciate that because they don't feel so bad about their own flaws. And whether we want to admit it or not, we all have flaws.