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Earth Walker
October 20th, 2001, 11:10 AM
The So-Called Evidence Is A Farce:Former Green Beret Says Bush
Is Lying.

A former U.S. military sergeant questions, quite logically, the
many stories the Bush administration has been feeding us.

It's a lengthy analysis. Here's the link and his conclusion:
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/17/18410.html

EasternPriest
October 20th, 2001, 11:52 AM
Interesting that the only venue this person could find to print his story is Pravda, whichhas been such a bastion of truth.........

Earth Walker
October 20th, 2001, 02:11 PM
The Problem With The Media

I just finished a book on conservative media manipulation in
America and the authors opinion is that the left should attack
the campaign finance system. The problem, in his opinion, is
deeper than just the media.
Since 1970 or so, American democracy has moved away from
serving the interests of the people and toward serving the
interests of corporations and if we want to do anything about
it, we must change the campaign finance system.

The book is "Constructing Public Opinion" by Justin Lewis
and deals with how our media is being methodically used to
manipulate people and ultimately get them to vote against their
own best interests - and in favour of corporate interests.
The key according to Lewis is how money now dominates the political process. The pool of candidates that voters are left to
choose from is filtered first by access to money, so the ultimate
choice is not really a choice at all.

Lewis talks about how popular finance reform is and why it never
seems to happen. The elites(so-called) inevitably frame the issue
in such a way that campaign finance reform is stacked against
other issues in a manner where it does not come out as the
highest immediate priority, so instead of reporting that campaign
finance reform has strong, sometimes overwhelming support (the
truth) it's inevitably reported like this: "campaign finance reform,
while popular, is not a critical issue for people personally", "jobs",
or "education", or "health care" are typically reported as the most
important issues for people on a personal level. The key is that
framed in this manner, campaign finance reform can never win because, of course, it does not effect people directly.
What follows is often a poll commissioned by a conservative think tank that comes back with a finding that "people do not care about the process, they just care about issues that effect them
directly". What is seen over and over again is extraordinary
manipulation of the issue. The "people don't care about the
process" finding often comes from questions that do not address
campaign finance directly, but put it in a more general context of
"creating legislation" like "do you care how legislation is created
(the mechanics) or about the nature of the legislation that passes". Well, like DUH, people respond that they care about the
legislation that passes, not the process. Then the media turn around and present this as evidence that people are not interested in campaign finance reform. It's incredibly cynical
manipulation, but so far it's worked.

The reason why the issue is framed this way(while other issues
typically avoid such manipulative framing) is that the elites (so-
called) put enormous pressure on our media to do so.
These elites are guys like Jack Welch, Bill Gates, Mike Eisner, and
a plethora of conservative think tanks flush with corporate money.

But given the true overwhelming support for finance reform,
Lewis feels that we can "fight through" the resistance and win.

And without the billions of campaign advertising dollars(yes,billions), Lewis feels the media will move back to the centre.

Thoughts?

Myst
October 20th, 2001, 02:14 PM
Interesting opinion.

Earth Walker
October 20th, 2001, 02:44 PM
Granny D is a wonderful, remarkable woman :sunny:
I wish there were more like her! Goddess Bless Doris.:)

Here are a few links:

http://grannyd.com/stonings.htm
(Many good links, some disturbing!)

http://www.commoncause.org/psaa/haddock.htm
http://www.iff-foundfreedom.com/freedom/granny.html
http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org/speeches/dugger/Granny_D_2pages.htm

You can find more links about this wonderful woman by typing
Doris "Granny D" Haddock in a search engine....google is good.

EasternPriest
October 20th, 2001, 04:04 PM
Now if the left would stop manipulating the media as well, maybe things could return to the center.

Earth Walker
October 20th, 2001, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by EasternPriest
Now of the left would stop manipulating the media as well, maybe things could return to the center.

The right-wing corporate media, Newspapers, TV, Radio, in
concert with the government, decide what the public should
hear.............but we of the left manipulate the media?....gosh,
we are good!, I think......:confused: :huh:

EasternPriest
October 20th, 2001, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Mystique


The right-wing corporate media, Newspapers, TV, Radio, in
concert with the government, decide what the public should
hear.............but we of the left manipulate the media?....gosh,
we are good!, I think......:confused: :huh:

The liberals control far more of the media than the right wing does, at least here in the US.

And I would love to see proof of the whole right wing media/government conspracy theory.

Earth Walker
October 20th, 2001, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by EasternPriest


The liberals control far more of the media than the right wing does, at least here in the US.

And I would love to see proof of the whole right wing media/government conspracy theory.

The Medias are Right-Wing owned, operated and controlled,
both in the U.S. and Canada.

I have posted the truth about the government & media many
times....so have others....and you can find much more on the
Web. :D

Myst
October 20th, 2001, 09:02 PM
First, anyone who publishes any type of media has control over that media. Thus, media published by left-wing organizations and individuals is controlled by them and thus can be "twisted" by them, inasmuch as media published by rightists is controlled or "twisted" by them.

Second, opinions aren't proof of "truth", and that's all I've seen posted here. Inasmuch as one can claim that media published by right wings is controlled it can also be claimed that left wings do the same - kind of interesting when you consider who's publishing these stories about who's manipulating the media - it becomes difficult to ascertain which group is really manipulating then, since certain people would tout these opinions as proof as much as any right wing controlled media does.

Earth Walker
October 20th, 2001, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Myst
First, anyone who publishes any type of media has control over that media. Thus, media published by left-wing organizations and individuals is controlled by them and thus can be "twisted" by them, inasmuch as media published by rightists is controlled or "twisted" by them.

Second, opinions aren't proof of "truth", and that's all I've seen posted here. Inasmuch as one can claim that media published by right wings is controlled it can also be claimed that left wings do the same - kind of interesting when you consider who's publishing these stories about who's manipulating the media - it becomes difficult to ascertain which group is really manipulating then, since certain people would tout these opinions as proof as much as any right wing controlled media does.

Whatever......:rolleyes:

Dellit Tandannon
October 20th, 2001, 10:29 PM
now i'm sure you can think of a better response then that one mystique.

EasternPriest
October 21st, 2001, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Mystique


The Medias are Right-Wing owned, operated and controlled,
both in the U.S. and Canada.

I have posted the truth about the government & media many
times....so have others....and you can find much more on the
Web. :D

The Detroit Free Press would probably beg to differ, as would Mother Jones, the Utne Reader, The Miami Herald, etc.... The left has plenty of voice and control of that voice.

I have seen you post many opinions about the government and media, but very little that can be objectively substantiated.

As far as finding more on the web, the fact that something is posted at a websight means nothing as to whether or not what you are reading is true.

Danustouch
October 21st, 2001, 02:33 AM
I'd just like to add something here, about "Critical Thinking". My husband frequents many of these conspiracy theory sites, such as Rense.com....etc. And the one thing I am constantly reminding him to do, is to try to emotionally detatch yourself from any article you read, and think about it critically. First of all...does the person who posted the article, seem educated and articulate? If not...you must wonder whether or not they are a reliable source. Chances are, someone with alot of experience in the reporting/political industry..or even someone with a very "Public" profile, would be educated and articulate. Secondly..does the person who wrote the article have credentials, references, etc, which would bolster your confidence, as the reader/consumer, in him/her? Anyone can have an opinion. And anyone can write an article. But you should, again, detatch yourself emotionally from the article (meaning, not just naturally assume it is valid and correct because it validates what you have already believed for some time)...and look at the source. Question every article you read, and every source who wrote it, until you are absolutely sure, in your heart of hearts, that the material they are presenting has a logical, and reliable conclusion. We were given skills of discernment for a reason. So, while many of these articles are thought provoking, they have the potential to convince many people that they are fact, when indeed, they are nothing but someones opinion. This is dangerous. IMO.

Daniel
October 22nd, 2001, 01:33 PM
Wyrd.

xjsjaglvr
October 22nd, 2001, 02:32 PM
More Lies passed as facts
There is a link posted on this thread which talks about a "Green Beret Master Sargent" saying that Bush is lying about our response in Afganistan. To say that I was skeptical about it would be an understatement. First the link was to PRAVDA the mouth piece of Socialism. Of course a quick check at the Special Forces Alumni page, sfahq.com (oh you hoped no one would check) revealed no Stan Goff was EVER!!!!! a member of the Special Forces. LIES, LIES, LIES. Look if people are going to insist on posting this trash then be prepared to be checked by people like me. I can not, by the rules of this forum make remarks of a personnel nature about such postings, however I can at every chance I get reveal the truth in such postings. I will continue to do so. Posting lies leads people to believe that the position of those posting such things must be be without merit if the only things they give as proof are so easily disproved.
I am JAG

Danustouch
October 22nd, 2001, 05:15 PM
Which is exactly why as I stated in an earlier reply, it is important to check the credentials/references of anyone who you quote as a "Source".

Danustouch
October 22nd, 2001, 05:16 PM
hmmmmm...word, wierd, or wyrd? If you meant wyrd as in wise...thank you for the compliment:)

Daniel
October 23rd, 2001, 01:36 AM
Wyrd = word.

Changing vowels into "Y"s seems to be the popular thing these days, hence womyn.

Danustouch
October 23rd, 2001, 01:45 AM
Still happily Woman :)

EasternPriest
October 23rd, 2001, 02:22 AM
Unforunately, some people don't care whether or not what they post as "fact" is in fact a lie. They just post away no matter what to stir it up.

Xander67
October 23rd, 2001, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by EasternPriest
Unforunately, some people don't care whether or not what they post as "fact" is in fact a lie. They just post away no matter what to stir it up.

I think Mr Rumsfeld said it all tonite on the news when he said that they want to keep the public abreast of what we are doing overseas, but we MUST protect the safety of our troups....

our boys and girls are in great danger over there and the last thing they need is Disharmony on th ehome front, no matter whether we agree with the troups being over there or not, we at least should be sending them our thoughts and protective energy and our prayers for a safe return....

Earth Walker
October 23rd, 2001, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by EasternPriest
Unforunately, some people don't care whether or not what they post as "fact" is in fact a lie. They just post away no matter what to stir it up.

Unfortunately, some people don't care whether or not what
they read is fact, and they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them
on the butt...mindless sheep who cannot think for themselves,
and believe all the lies coming from Dubya and the Republikans,
welcome to Amerika...........some people here are mindless sheep
as well, believing all the lies coming from Chretien/Lieberals......
welcome to Kanada.

mol
October 23rd, 2001, 02:09 PM
SITE GOD MODE

Everyone needs to calm down.

It is indeed true that many pieces of information that we would like to believe are, in fact, fabricated. It happens. We need to focus on the matter at hand, which is the discussion of this piece of information which has proven to be invalid from a few sources.

So, lets move on.

Myst
October 23rd, 2001, 04:17 PM
Well I thought the article was interesting but due to its source (pravda) and the fact that I don't know anything about this Sergeant this one gets stuck in my "opinions" file.

EasternPriest
October 23rd, 2001, 06:01 PM
In my opinion the article belongs in the circular file, not even the opinion file.

It's a standard propaganda piece, designed for mass comsumption by those who cannot or will not think critically about sources of information, or who do not take the initiative to investigate an issue for themselves.

This has been the type of "journalism" that Pravda has done best for several decades now.

UnSolon
November 8th, 2001, 04:56 AM
Eastern Priest - What you seem to be able to do the best is subtlely insult the beliefs of those whom dont belive like you. (and I apologize, because this in itself is an insult, I understand)

You keep asking for proof... you keep repeating that... a very sensible and honourable idea. However you never seem to be able to provide any proof yourself.

xjsjaglvr - thank you for your input. sfahq.com is a fairly interesting site. So I ask you, did you simply put Stan Goff's name into the search engine and click "Search"? I can guarentee you would NOT find anything to tell you he was once a member of the Special Operations. However, apon further inquiry I found this site: http://www.nara.gov/regional/mpr.html which is the ACTUAL storage facility for military records, deceased, liveing, discharged, health, etc... everything. And it is clearly stated on that site, "Information from the records is made available upon written request". WRITTEN request. also "No requests for military personnel records or information from them will be accepted at the e-mail address below" NO INTERNET!!! And judgeing from the alleged nature of Stan Goff's departure from the military (apparently he became disgusted with it, and left), I sincerly doubt you would find his name on an alumni list.

xjsjaglvr - you stated in your post that "oh you hoped no one would check" refering to your check of Stan Goff's athenticity as a human being. Well I say too you... Did you hope that no one would check up on your fact finding abilities (no, I am NOT jag).

You state xjsjaglvr: "PRAVDA the mouth piece of Socialism"
and with that you mean to discount any piece of information from it as false and biased. However I could make the statement "CNN (or insert other corporate owned media conglomerate) the mouth piece of Capitalism" and mean to discount any piece of information from it as false and biased. HOWEVER, I will not. I prefer DEMOCRACY, I belive in free speech, I will not dismiss an article by where it comes from. That is closed mindedness.

:uzi: - - - - - - - - - - lies

Love, peace, happiness :)

Aengus McTeague
November 8th, 2001, 06:33 AM
This is not an attack on any individual, but on dangerously wrong ideas

Several people have posted incredibly silly statements about "leftist" control of the media.
Hello?
Are you breathing?
Can you tie your shoes?

Look at who owns the major media outlets in this country (http://www.nowfoundation.org/communications/tv/mediacontrol.html)

Look at the track record of the major players (http://fp.enter.net/~haney/mediaownership.htm)

Look at how the major media has consistently sucked up to government, big business, and right-wing religion. (http://www.fair.org/media-woes/official-agenda.html)

And for the Canadians here, don't think this is just a US problem. (http://www.strategymag.com/articles/magazine/20001023/np-content.html)

Indeed, it is a worlwide problem. (http://www.oneworld.net/anydoc2.cgi?u=http://www.fair.org/extra/9711/gmg.html|root=528)

Claims of liberal bias in the media stem either from ignorance, which fortunately is treatable with repeated exposure to facts, or willfull blindness, which unfortunately is usually a chronic, lifelong disease. Those who are so afflicted have my sympathy, if nothing else.

I should probably have a bit more kindness, I know, after all, FOX, CBS, MSN and the New York Times all tell you they're not biased, and you've been raised not to question the illusion of a free press. It is just that, an illusion.

I am tempted to recommend Noam Chomsky, one of America's most brilliant political and social thinkers, but anyone who actually believes in liberal control of the media would choke on the big words.

Aengus

xjsjaglvr
November 8th, 2001, 08:50 AM
The site I mentioned lists links and is one of many that can help you determine if someone is an alumni of any of the various special operations groups. These sites popped up because alot of folks have been passing themselves off as Medal of Honor winners, ex seals, and Green Berets. The name of this guy would be listed even if he left on bad terms. Yes the governments sites will not give out certain information without proper proof of need for that information. The alumni sites are private and therefore not under the same restrictions. By the way my statement as to Pravda being the mouthpiece of Socialism was only a statement of fact nothing more. I make my living writing and believe me everything I put down on paper is looked at by three other people and each one verifies every fact I put down and reviews my source of that fact.

Myst
November 8th, 2001, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Aengus McTeague
I am tempted to recommend Noam Chomsky, one of America's most brilliant political and social thinkers, but anyone who actually believes in liberal control of the media would choke on the big words.

You know, I think that was pretty rude.

Myst
November 8th, 2001, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by UnSolon
Eastern Priest - What you seem to be able to do the best is subtlely insult the beliefs of those whom dont belive like you. (and I apologize, because this in itself is an insult, I understand)

You keep asking for proof... you keep repeating that... a very sensible and honourable idea. However you never seem to be able to provide any proof yourself.


Uh proof of what sparkles? I don't recall EP touting biased articles as fact or as proof of anything..?

UnSolon
November 8th, 2001, 03:57 PM
I am very sorry :wah:

This is not the sort of feeling I wished to generate from this sort of discussion. I did not want us to start battling negetivity with negetivity.

I firmly belive in everyones right to belive what they belive. I will fight to the death (peacefully hopefully, untill all other options are expended) to defend the right for EVERYONE to be able to express their views.

I also belive everyone has the right to do WHATEVER they please. HOWEVER, those rights END as their fist reaches the end of my nose (metaphorically). So when your actions infringe on the universal rights of humans, or the environment, I will not hesitate to act to rectify those situations.

I am a peaceful protestor. I have attended mass rallys protesting globalization, free trade (Fair Trade please), environmental destruction, etc. I have given speeches, I have written letters, given presantations, and live simply so that others may simply live. I have even been arressted for standing up (actually sitting) for my rights and beliefs. I will not back away into the shadows.

In my view, globalization, free trade, and general corporate control in North America, and other Western Minded countries, has resulted in a catastrophic destruction of the environment, loss of cultural differences, and the virtual enslavement of a large portion of the worlds population outside of North America. Through organizations such as the IMF (International Monetary Fund), the WTO (World Trade Organization), and others like it, countries and entire populations have been forced to tow the line behind US forign policy (which has largly dictated the line followed by organizations like the WTO and the IMF because they are the dominent country in this day in age).

A question to all. What is democracy? Is it the rule of a country by the people? I belive it is. What is a "people"? I belive a person is a "living" "breathing" individual. Someone with a soul (whether you belive in souls or not). However, in the United States corporations have the same rights and privilages as a human being under the law. They are considered a "person". As a result of corporations enourmous wealth compared to individual citizins, these "people inc" are able to influence the justice system (high priced lawyers), the media outlets (corporations control the OVERWHELMING majority of all media), and the governments (generous campaign "donations").

If the human rights of person in North America are infringed apon by a government, that person has the right to take it to court. However, only after proceeding through the highest court in that country can they then progress to an international court. If found to be in the right that court can only Make recomandations to a country, nothing else. However, if the "rights" of a corporation are infringed apon, ie: their ability to make money in any particular area (ie: a state or province passing a law which bans a chemical from that juristiction because of health concerns, which is stricker than the national standard) that "person inc" has the ability to take it DIRECTLY to a secret tribunal (courtesy of the WTO and NAFTA), which judges and rules in secret, and has the ability to award BILLIONS of dollers to a corporation, and enforce stringent trade sanctions if that state refuses.

These are SOME of the things I do not feel to be right in this world, I have tried to keep personal bias from this message, however I know that all things are somewhat influenced by the mindset of the writer. But the facts which I have presented herin are TRUE. You can check up on them through various sources, and I can possibly find you some if you need them desperatly.

This is not the only reasons to my beliefs, but the rest are personal, and are based on personal beliefs, not on facts which I have learned.

Peace...
UnSolon

Myst
November 8th, 2001, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by UnSolon
This is not the sort of feeling I wished to generate from this sort of discussion. I did not want us to start battling negetivity with negetivity.

I'm sorry you feel the thread has come to that. I feel this forum is for discussing and debating, and everyone's opinion is welcome. Thus, you are welcome to share as is everyone, even when we all disagree. I don't see a problem with you continuing to debate this matter or that anyone is forcing beliefs. I hope you will feel welcome to continue sharing your opinions with us and not feel as though there are negative feelings here. k?

UnSolon
November 8th, 2001, 04:05 PM
lol... hence why I posted that last message.

But you cannot deny there were negetive vibes from many people here (including myself). That part of the message was simply a "calm down" to myself.

Peace...

UnSolon

Myst
November 8th, 2001, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by UnSolon
But you cannot deny there were negetive vibes from many people here (including myself). That part of the message was simply a "calm down" to myself.


That happens a lot at Political Pagan. Ya kinda get used to it :)