So you aren't supposed to affect free will, right?

[Kyan's Daddy]

I need to know how black and white this rule is...

I'm dealing with my soon to be ex-wife. She's giving me a hard time about a custody arrangement with my son.

Is it ok to work a spell so that she will just be reasonable like a normal human being and do what's best for our son instead of being the massive PITA she regularly is?

[Rick]

I need to know how black and white this rule is...

Like everything that relates to ethics, it's only black & white if you hold it to be black & white. Since not affecting free will is not a tenet that I hold, it's pretty much digitalized technicolor to me.

[Hærfest Leah]

I say you be the judge as in if it goes against your view of being right or wrong. It sounds like a good cause so I vote do it. As for me I don't follow that rule anymore so I just go by my own ethics.

[Tzhebee]

Well, in your particular case, from the opposite POV, you are probably being a PITA too...and maybe she believes that what she is doing IS in the best interest of your son.

Basically, what I'm saying is that it's all in the persepective. So, if YOU don't have any issues with whatever spell you are thinking about, then go for it. Regardless of the outcome, regarless of the spell (good/bad/indifferent) YOU are the one casting it and YOU are the one who has to live with the consequences (guilt/shame???) of your actions, not us.

(BTW, this is exatly why I don't follow little rules like that)

[Geryongesis]

Since when has free will ever mattered? Like freedom itself it is only a social construct, easily manipulated or set aside.

[Kyan's Daddy]

Well, in your particular case, from the opposite POV, you are probably being a PITA too...and maybe she believes that what she is doing IS in the best interest of your son.

Actually, I am a pretty good judge of my own actions, and I can tell you I have done nothing but bend over backwards while she tries to use him as a tool to manipulate me.

I wish it wasn't the truth, but it is.

[Tzhebee]

Actually, I am a pretty good judge of my own actions, and I can tell you I have done nothing but bend over backwards while she tries to use him as a tool to manipulate me.
It's unfortunate that this is the case, espeically for your son...but that doesn't mean that she might actually believe that she's doing what's best. I'm not saying that she is...just that she believes she is...

Or at least, I like to think that all mothers actually try to do best by thier children...which I know isn't true...but I want to believe it.... *sigh*

:hugz: to you....I say hex her ass. Do whatever you need to do for your sons best interest.

[Kendrah]

My rule of thumb is if I'm willing to deal with the consequences, I'll do the deed. If I'm not, then I won't.

[Faeawyn]

The only problem with trying to do spells to manipulate someones free will is that they either don't work at all, or they backfire. I would suggest doing a more positive spell...like something to aid yourself in this instanct. Or just a basic spell for the best outcome for your son. :whatgives:

[Rockprincess]

I don't see that the spell has to work on her will at all. If you do a protective spell on your son, and ask that the best possible outcome for him be achieved, it will have the same effect without you specifically working on her.

That would be my solution.

[darkfaery]

Like everything that relates to ethics, it's only black & white if you hold it to be black & white. Since not affecting free will is not a tenet that I hold, it's pretty much digitalized technicolor to me.
And right there is the bottom line, it comes down to what you hold true for yourself.

Me, I say do what needs to be done to take care of you and yours!

[Geryongesis]

The only problem with trying to do spells to manipulate someones free will is that they either don't work at all, or they backfire. I would suggest doing a more positive spell...like something to aid yourself in this instanct. Or just a basic spell for the best outcome for your son. :whatgives:

I have to cite my disagreement here. I manipulate the will almost perpetually during my "magic" it is almost stock and trade for me. Every action acts upon the will of another, be it a steady, firm handshake, and a gaze into their eye, the mark of an "honest man" or any other influence. And that having been said, what I do works admirably. I must say that my success rates are higher than you will find in any other form of "magic". Do what you will, if you can get away with it, and are prepared for the consequences if you cannot get away with it.

[BlueMoon13]

I don't see that the spell has to work on her will at all. If you do a protective spell on your son, and ask that the best possible outcome for him be achieved, it will have the same effect without you specifically working on her.

That would be my solution.
Excellent compromise! Karma train comin' your way :yikess:
As for affecting free will in general, if it's to the benefit of you and those you care about,do whatever you have to do. If you don't then what's the point in being a witch :whatgives ?

[Aidron]

I need to know how black and white this rule is...

I'm dealing with my soon to be ex-wife. She's giving me a hard time about a custody arrangement with my son.

Is it ok to work a spell so that she will just be reasonable like a normal human being and do what's best for our son instead of being the massive PITA she regularly is?


For starters, the world is rarely ever black and white. There are most often shades of gray, but people usually do not have the sight to see it. Black and white are such a rarity that I'm not even absolutely certain as of yet that such exists. I've yet to encounter any such absolutes in this manner.

As for affecting the free will of others, I personally do not ascribe to that moral code. Should they attempt to affect my life in a malevolent manner all bets are off and I will do whatever I can, no matter how manipulative, cunning or wicked to overpower them, give them what they have coming or send them on their way, sometimes even all of the above.

However, you need not work a spell that even involves your wife. There is always numerous angles we can approach things in life (always, pick a situation any situation and I can prove it with examples I assure you) so, you merely have to possess the wisdom and cunning to see them. You could work a spell or ritual to ensure your son's happiness (his greatest happiness may be with her though), to protect him from harm during this struggle (be specific in stating this struggle or it could protect him from a random accident), to fulfill his wishes in the matter (again, his wish may be to be with her, even if he says otherwise his subconscious may come to the forefront and decree it) and so forth and so on. She does not even need to factor into the working, and in such a case I do not think she needs to. The point of focus here is your son, not her from reading your post, so it would be rather foolish to make her the central focus of a magical working. Keep the focus the same from mundane to magical to ensure the greatest success and results.

None of this is to say that you could not work magic on her, against her or for her, but your focus has been shifted then so keep that in mind. If she is causing great turmoil, yet you wish to work a magical rite so that your son's wishes in the matter are achieved you could bind her so that her negative influence on the matter is restricted and diminished and then work a ritual or spell to manifest your son's desires on the situation.

The point being, if she's impacting the overall scenario in a gross (in every sense of the word) way then she may need to be cast aside so that she does not adversely affect your later magic to do what is best for your son.

[Aidron]

The only problem with trying to do spells to manipulate someones free will is that they either don't work at all, or they backfire. I would suggest doing a more positive spell...like something to aid yourself in this instanct. Or just a basic spell for the best outcome for your son. :whatgives:


I must disagree. My magical workings concerning such work as much as any magical endeavor of mine and backfire as often as any of the rest, which is usually a result of my own foolish wording, mental skills and so forth.

I suspect this has more to do with your own moral perspective on the matter, which is understandable, and less to do with the overall types of magic in question. I personally would never work any magic I felt uneasy about as it would most certainly bring me nothing but grief.

[MoonDust]

I agree with Faeawyn
Free will is it. You don't touch it. You don't mess with it.
Nothing else needs to be said. You can't rationalize it.
You can do what you think is best for yourself. You're there, you have your own consent -I hope.
You do not fiddle with someone else’s life. It's also a matter of respect for another life.

[Jenne]

I've done the same myself, so I can't in all honesty say it's a bad idea and not to do it. But, when I *do* engage in rits of this order, or spells rather, I also take into account any consequences that may come about as a result. So just be as careful as you can with intent and whatnot.

Good luck, KD!

[Aidron]

I agree with Faeawyn
Free will is it. You don't touch it. You don't mess with it.
Nothing else needs to be said. You can't rationalize it.
You can do what you think is best for yourself. You're there, you have your own consent -I hope.
You do not fiddle with someone else’s life. It's also a matter of respect for another life.


A noble sentiment to some, but look around at the world. Magically or not people are always trying to impose their will on others. To convince others, to convert, to open someone else's eyes to a different point of view, to abusing them in one manner or another.

Therefore, when someone pushes in such a way I push back-and hard. They have no respect for my life or my free will so I will not trouble myself with mustering up the energy to give them such respect either.

[MoonDust]

but why add to it? The only person we can ultimately control is ourselves. If there are thousands of people already trying to impose their will, why be one of these people? I ask my self: Is that the kind of person you can be comfortable with?
What I ask myself everyday as I go to bed: Have I done anything I should be ashamed of? What have I done that I must learn from? What must be corrected? How can I improve as person so that my soul is at peace?

Personally, imposing my will on others would not help me go to sleep at night or allow me to look at myself in the mirror.

But to each his/her own

[Aidron]

but why add to it? The only person we can ultimately control is ourselves. If there are thousands of people already trying to impose their will, why be one of these people? I ask my self: Is that the kind of person you can be comfortable with?
What I ask myself everyday as I go to bed: Have I done anything I should be ashamed of? What have I done that I must learn from? What must be corrected? How can I improve as person so that my soul is at peace?

Personally, imposing my will on others would not help me go to sleep at night or allow me to look at myself in the mirror.

But to each his/her own


It's not about control, as you see it. It's about force and resistance. If you push on me you will be met with resistance. The type of resistance will vary depending on the circumstances; who the person is, what has transpired, my feelings on the matter, my observations and so forth.

Nine times out of ten I find it more prudent to ignore the offending person and go along my way. That, however, is rooted in my deep apathy and misanthropic outlook.

But for those times when I do push back, I consider it a sign of strength to stand up for myself and fight back. There will always be times when we need to fight, absolute passivity will accomplish things, but very rarely and even then very slowly. I certainly could not go to bed and sleep at night knowing I had let someone walk all over me and keep right on treading as if they were not due any consequences. Consequences cannot be proven to be dealt out by karma or anything else many who share views like you, and since I do not believe in karma I intend to take things into my own hands as the one who was dealt with poorly and see to it that the person learns their lesson; that there are people in the world who will not lie there and take it and who do indeed bite back.

Of course to each their own, but I find an idle stance or a stance of passivity is not one I want part in. I can look at the situation objectively and learn, grow and evolve just as much even if I do fight back, so I see no reason not to. Besides, the world needs conflict and negativity just as much as it needs cooperation and positivity, for the sake of balance.

[MoonDust]

If that's how you see it you're more than welcome to.

[Mistress_Ravenshadow]

when i think about a persons free will i think of it in terms of forcing them to do something they are not capable of doing on there own.. eg.. using magick to make someone fall in love with you.. i see no problem with doing something to open up comunication and to draw out someones reasonableness if it is something already there but it just needs to be given a but of a nudge in the right direction

[Geryongesis]

but why add to it? The only person we can ultimately control is ourselves. If there are thousands of people already trying to impose their will, why be one of these people? I ask my self: Is that the kind of person you can be comfortable with?
What I ask myself everyday as I go to bed: Have I done anything I should be ashamed of? What have I done that I must learn from? What must be corrected? How can I improve as person so that my soul is at peace?

Personally, imposing my will on others would not help me go to sleep at night or allow me to look at myself in the mirror.

But to each his/her own


Because hun, this isnt a utopia, the universe, and even our microcosm lives on a zero sum system, if you want something, you have to take it away from someone else, and considering we are all born naked bloody and screaming into this world, all that you will accumulate is taken from someone else. Imposition of the will upon another is just another way of taking. Effective human beings become VERY good at taking, and in many cases, being thanked for doing said taking. But from what I read your major issue is a moral one. The solution? Realize your "soul" is nothing more than your collected set of symbols from your perceptions of others and reality. It is subjective, alterable, and utterly arbitrary at its core.

An effective human being learns how to take the most while having the least taken in response. One of the best methods of doing this is through imposition of the will, pure and simple. You can fluff it all you want, but every action you make imposes your will on another entity.

[Kyan's Daddy]

I don't see that the spell has to work on her will at all. If you do a protective spell on your son, and ask that the best possible outcome for him be achieved, it will have the same effect without you specifically working on her.

That would be my solution.

That's pretty much what I figured I would do.

I just wish there was a "Stop being such a bitch!" spell. She told me yesterday how she is going to do whatever she can to make my life hell. Nice, huh?

[Rockprincess]

That's pretty much what I figured I would do.

I just wish there was a "Stop being such a bitch!" spell. She told me yesterday how she is going to do whatever she can to make my life hell. Nice, huh?

:( Why would she want so much negativity around her?

I don't know the specifics of your situation, so I don't really understand why she would behave that way. It sounds to me like you are doing your best to be reasonable and care for your son.

People aren't always reasonable when they percieve themselves as hurt, or insulted, or injured in some way - and unfortunately, perception is reality. So whatever wrong she *thinks* you've done her is real to her, and she's lashing back - much the way a lot of the previous posters say they do, when pushed.

Best of luck :hugz:

[MoonDust]

Because hun, this isnt a utopia, the universe, and even our microcosm lives on a zero sum system, if you want something, you have to take it away from someone else, and considering we are all born naked bloody and screaming into this world, all that you will accumulate is taken from someone else.It doesn't have to be Utopia. I just have to be at peace with my actions. And my messing with someones free will would not leave me at peace. I will not accept something I have not earned. I will not take what I can work for.

[Kendrah]

It doesn't have to be Utopia. I just have to be at peace with my actions. And my messing with someones free will would not leave me at peace. I will not accept something I have not earned. I will not take what I can work for.

"Earning" something is another way of taking it from someone else. You have your job (something you stole from how ever many other people) to have the money and fortune to set up your life in a certain way. Everything you "buy" was potentially stolen from someone else. Things you say to someone without thought can change their world.

It's a very simple concept. In order to breath, you must kill thousands of micro-organisms. In order to eat, you have to kill something. If someone kidnapped someone from your family, you can't tell me you'd sit on t he couch and tiddle your thumbs because you don't want to effect the kidnappers free will and Karma "will get him" anyway.

Earning is just another word for righteous theft. That's all there is to it. If you come down to it, morals are nice fuzzy feelings that make us feel good about ourselves, but they have no uses in the real world.

[Aidron]

That's pretty much what I figured I would do.

I just wish there was a "Stop being such a bitch!" spell. She told me yesterday how she is going to do whatever she can to make my life hell. Nice, huh?


In such cases where people insist on such, and I have not experienced such in many long years as I seem to repel people naturally the more I progress, I assure people that I can indulge in such with far more skill and in turn make their life a living hell-but without going out of my way. I won't focus my life around it and I certainly won't lose sleep over it. They will learn that I bite back and twice as hard, however.

[Kyan's Daddy]

"Earning" something is another way of taking it from someone else. You have your job (something you stole from how ever many other people) to have the money and fortune to set up your life in a certain way. Everything you "buy" was potentially stolen from someone else. Things you say to someone without thought can change their world.

I can kinda see your "logic", but I doubt I stole my job from anyone... No one else wanted it. :alol:


It's a very simple concept. In order to breath, you must kill thousands of micro-organisms.

Can you scientifically back that up?

[Aidron]

It doesn't have to be Utopia. I just have to be at peace with my actions. And my messing with someones free will would not leave me at peace. I will not accept something I have not earned. I will not take what I can work for.


You do interfere with the free will of others, whether intentionall or unintentionally. Since all things are connected there is no way you can exist in any form and not affect something else.

Whether you are persuading someone to calm down who seems distraught or manipulating them into bed. One way or the other a person's free will has been affected, and while I do not believe that the end justifies the means in most cases, what it merely boils down to is your own individual perception of good and bad, wicked and righteous and so forth. Many terrible things have begun through good intentions and many great things have begun through horrible intentions. These good and bad are subjective though, so the peace of mind you speak of is thus an illusion; like a drug we need it and strive for it, but in the end it is nothing more than a matter of perception.

[Kendrah]

I can kinda see your "logic", but I doubt I stole my job from anyone... No one else wanted it. :alol:

If you have starving children or are starving yourself and you're about to be put out on the street, anything would work.


Can you scientifically back that up?

I spent a couple minutes googling a couple pages for you. If you want more links, look up 'lysozyme'.

"Explanation: Alexander Fleming discovered the antibiotic activity of lysozyme in 1922 when he dropped mucus into a culture of bacteria and noticed that the bacteria were killed. In humans, lysozyme is in the blood, mucus, tears and saliva. The mechanism by which lysozyme kills bacteria is by hydrolyzing the glycosidic bond of the bacterial cell wall, the protective outer coating of the organism. This causes cell lysis, hence the name lysozyme (zyme is for enzyme)."

Taken from: http://www.reciprocalnet.org/recipnet/showsample.jsp?sampleId=27343957

http://www.skoool.ie/skoool/examcentre_sc.asp?id=2868
http://www.wooster.edu/biology/dfraga/ BIO_119/lectures/PassiveNSdefenses.ppt
http://www.jdaross.mcmail.com/nonspec.htm
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/constitutivedefense.html
http://www.gpc.edu/~jaliff/analymph.htm

[Kyan's Daddy]

So you are assuming there is bacteria in every breath you take? Umm, no. (I work in a laboratory, I know microbiology... Trust me, the answer is NO.)

[Kendrah]

So you are assuming there is bacteria in every breath you take? Umm, no. (I work in a laboratory, I know microbiology... Trust me, the answer is NO.)

What do you do in the laboratory?

Still, it happens. Maybe not every breath. Maybe breathing is the wrong way to look at it. Think of eating them. Milk and water and products made of such aren't killing things, but there are few others.

The point is that it happens. You can't sit on the high horse of ethics and not see what you're doing. It's not a horrible thing. We've all fought to be alive. But it isn't something to turn a blind eye on.

[Xander67]

Bacteria DOES travel in the air... Hence the term "Airborne Bacteria"
and it is possible to breathe in germs. alot of Flus and Colds.. and even certain deadly diseases are transmitted this way.

[Faeawyn]

What a sad way to look at life....that existing is all about death, killing, destruction, taking, destroying.....
I prefer to look at life as living in harmony with....as a balance of nature. I also give back to life and help life along. I try to live my life in a positive way and I've been rewarded with alot of positive energy around me thats enabled me to live a rich and wonderful life. If you want to surround yourself with negativity or invite negativity into your life, then just be prepared to accept the negativity that it draws to you.

[Kendrah]

What a sad way to look at life....that existing is all about death, killing, destruction, taking, destroying.....
I prefer to look at life as living in harmony with....as a balance of nature. I also give back to life and help life along. I try to live my life in a positive way and I've been rewarded with alot of positive energy around me thats enabled me to live a rich and wonderful life. If you want to surround yourself with negativity or invite negativity into your life, then just be prepared to accept the negativity that it draws to you.

I live my life authentically. Living authentically means I am wake to the world. My eyes are open. When did seeing things as they are become negative? I see it as a positive. I know this world and I know how to work it within my abilities.

I don't see how living with ear muffles and a cloth wrapped around your head, dead asleep to the world around you is positive. Sure it's a nice, compy place to sleep in. But that isn't life.

[Kyan's Daddy]

Bacteria DOES travel in the air... Hence the term "Airborne Bacteria"
and it is possible to breathe in germs. alot of Flus and Colds.. and even certain deadly diseases are transmitted this way.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The point I'm making is that you aren't "killing thousands of organisms with every breath" as was stated in a previous post.

[Xander67]

no, not every breath .

[Aidron]

What a sad way to look at life....that existing is all about death, killing, destruction, taking, destroying.....
I prefer to look at life as living in harmony with....as a balance of nature. I also give back to life and help life along. I try to live my life in a positive way and I've been rewarded with alot of positive energy around me thats enabled me to live a rich and wonderful life. If you want to surround yourself with negativity or invite negativity into your life, then just be prepared to accept the negativity that it draws to you.


Balance is important, but many who advocate balance within the neo-pagan community are the ones who believe in acknowledging only the good in nature, the light side of things, that if they happen to stumble upon a wild animal it's a sacred sign and it would never eat them. Newsflash, if it's hungry and we look tempting the sacred sign is: You're no better than the animal, you're both part of the food chain now run or die.

The overall point, however, is that people dismiss and turn their nose up usually at the other half of nature. Killing, destruction, death, they each have their place just as much as healing, creation and life. A forest will be burned by lightning and new growth comes of it, a zebra will be killed to feed a lion pride. But what I speak of most is defense. Does anyone honestly think a lioness would allow her cubs to be maimed or killed should some other animal who is intent on doing so come along? No, she is going to push back, she is going to fight back and if she needs to she will slaughter the offending animal and be done with it.

Conflict is just as much a part of our existance as peace. We need both for balance, to define the borders of each and to keep things in harmony. Turning a nose up at such is really not going to do anyone, most of all yourself any good, and I speak of 'yourself' and 'you' throughout this post in a general statement, not directly at you Fae. Your post just happened to prompt mine.

[Luminessence]

I don't see that the spell has to work on her will at all. If you do a protective spell on your son, and ask that the best possible outcome for him be achieved, it will have the same effect without you specifically working on her.

That would be my solution.

I agree that this sounds like the best thing to do. Kyan's Daddy, I voted No on the poll, but I saw you had posted later that this sort of thing was what you planned on doing, and I can ddefinitely support that.

As for conflict and taking from others being inherent aspects of life - yes, they are, but I see it as the same thing that Faeawyn was talking about, and frankly, I prefer to see it Faeawyn's way. You can see it as conflict or you can see it as balance. This conflict and taking is part of life, but why does that mean we should just take what we want, whenever? Our animal nature is not the only part of us. Yes, to have the job that you have means that somebody else didn't get it. But does that mean it's okay to trample on the people below and around you in order to get to the top (like the CEO of Enron, for example, or New Hampshire's wonderful :shaker: former governor Craig Benson)? We kill bacteria when we breathe, but does that mean it's okay to kill whatever we want to kill? We affect people's free will every day, but does that mean it's okay to mess around with it using a direct and concentrated approach such as magic, knowing that they probably know nothing about magic and probably have no defense against it?

My point is, conflict is an inherent part of the way the world works, but that doesn't give us license to do whatever we want.

Of course, this is just the way I see things. Some people simply don't have a problem with affecting people's free will. I don't agree with that, but I respect your right to believe it. (It is, after all, part of your free will... ironically enough. :)) I'm not trying to yell at anybody here, and I apologize if it comes across that way.

[wolf]

You're asking for an outcome that will be in the best interest of your child.

Just so long as you're not doing a spell or working as a means of spite, revenge, or just to make life more difficult for the pending-ex, I don't see a conflict.

(I don't necessarily see a conflict in any of those other things, under the right circumstances.)

[dr_zeus440]

do what you think is right, if being right is what you think is right.

what is it about neopagans that makes them unable to perform an act of supposed 'moral questionability' without first asking a sea of faceless strangers?

-10 points. make your own decisions and use what youve got between your ears. yes, your nose.

[Faeawyn]

what is it about neopagans that makes them unable to perform an act of supposed 'moral questionability' without first asking a sea of faceless strangers?
Perhaps because we're not all faceless strangers? And maybe because some of us value the opinions of others, or at least enjoy input and feedback?


-10 points.
What are we at Hogwarts?

[Aidron]

Perhaps because we're not all faceless strangers? And maybe because some of us value the opinions of others, or at least enjoy input and feedback?


Quite true, but on the other hand he does have a point. If we cannot make up our own minds for our moral path, then who else would have more valid input? I think too often people look outside themselves when they could easily look within to find what they seek.



What are we at Hogwarts?


Wanna have a race on our brooms? I bet I fall off before you do. ;)

[Ron]

The only problem with trying to do spells to manipulate someones free will is that they either don't work at all, or they backfire. I would suggest doing a more positive spell...like something to aid yourself in this instanct. Or just a basic spell for the best outcome for your son. :whatgives:
The basic spell idea...props to you Fae.. :happybday

[darkfaery]

When you tell a child to do something you are affecting the child's free will. When you tell your employee to do something you are affecting that person's free will. A doctor telling a patient to do something affects the patients free will.
If someone steped out in front of a bus, and you pulled them out of the way, with out asking permission first, didn't you just affect their free will?
The list goes on...

It is not a black and white issue. Everything you do needs to be thought out on a case by case basis. Most of it is done subconciously in a matter of seconds. It is up to the individual to decide based on their on morals and standards, what is right for them.

My opinion is that to protect myself and those I care about, I will do whatever it takes. I don't really care if it affects someones free will or not. And I will do it either magically or non-magically. It doesn't matter to me. My family comes first. The law of the pack...

[Aidron]

When you tell a child to do something you are affecting the child's free will. When you tell your employee to do something you are affecting that person's free will. A doctor telling a patient to do something affects the patients free will.

No. In each case refusal to comply is an option. The consequences may be unfortunate, even dire, but the option is still there thus free will is not compromised.


If someone steped out in front of a bus, and you pulled them out of the way, with out asking permission first, didn't you just affect their free will?

No again, with one exception; that the person did not wish to be saved from the obvious impending peril. When you compromise someone's free will you are forcing them to do something they would otherwise not have.



My opinion is that to protect myself and those I care about, I will do whatever it takes. I don't really care if it affects someones free will or not. And I will do it either magically or non-magically. It doesn't matter to me. My family comes first. The law of the pack...

On this we agree, with the exception that my family comes first. I dislike most of my family and would probably rescue a stranger from peril before them, unless of course we are speaking of the family we create and choose to willingly induct ourselves into. Suffice it to say, at a certain point of being pushed my the person or persons who are the source of the problem will be in for the greatest amount of agony and despair I am capable of inflicting. Accredit it to my vengeful scorpio moon.

[Geryongesis]

No. In each case refusal to comply is an option. The consequences may be unfortunate, even dire, but the option is still there thus free will is not compromised.

What about the willful manipulation of another, carefully calculating their odds of compliance and manufacturing consequences which you know they are not willing to accept. Or creating the appearance of a bond of friendship and then using such to enact your will upon another.

The biggest problem with your statement is you are operating on the premise that free will exists. Human's have a concept of freedom, that much like god, does not actually exist. We are all bound by situation and consequence, slaves as surely as any.

[CloeOtter]

Greetings,

I personal would cast a spell of protection on the little one & tag on that the child be free to go to the parent that will do & be the best choice for him. For the Goddess's/Spirit's knowledge is greater than us all. This would leave all manipulation of free will on everybody out of the picture and leave it in the hands of the one who loves/ and knows all.

My 2 cents & Blessings, :hugz:
CloeOtter

[darkfaery]

On this we agree, with the exception that my family comes first. I dislike most of my family and would probably rescue a stranger from peril before them, unless of course we are speaking of the family we create and choose to willingly induct ourselves into. Suffice it to say, at a certain point of being pushed my the person or persons who are the source of the problem will be in for the greatest amount of agony and despair I am capable of inflicting. Accredit it to my vengeful scorpio moon.
I absolutely include those that we create as family


No. In each case refusal to comply is an option. The consequences may be unfortunate, even dire, but the option is still there thus free will is not compromised.
Ok so maybe you are not affecting free will, but you are definately manipulating the things around you to your desired outcome, regardless of how the other person feels about it.

Which I want to make clear, I have no problem with if the need arises. But I do think that manipulation is fairly close to affecting someones free will.

[Aidron]

Ok so maybe you are not affecting free will, but you are definately manipulating the things around you to your desired outcome, regardless of how the other person feels about it.

Which I want to make clear, I have no problem with if the need arises. But I do think that manipulation is fairly close to affecting someones free will.


To manipulate implies to pervert, to scheme and to assert control in most often under-handed manners, so manipulate would be a poor choice for this particular scenario and indeed when looking at things from an overall perspective.

It is, however, true that each of us asserts our influence upon our enviroment, within and without. Magical or not there is no way to live without doing such, every action is asserting influence.

Too often I find people take issue with such, regardless of their morality and regardless of the scenario. A disturbing observation, particularly from those who seek to be practitioners of magic, which by very definition is to assert one's influence. Do keep in mind I am not assuming this about you or even referring to you in this statement.

[darkfaery]

I understand, and I actually quite agree with your thought process. Which is sort of the point I was trying to get across. Just not as eloquently as you did. :smile:

[9-2-2]

If she is going to cause you and your family a lot of harm, then do what you have to, even if it means turning her into a vegetable. Some pathetic human's retarded antics aren't worth holding sacred if she's gonna put your lives in the crapper.

[demonique]

Free will is a beautiful thing - but I'm not above manipulating it and tromping over it to protect me and mine. I say do what you need to do. However, if you're hesitant and uncertain about whether it fits with your own code of morals, do what was suggested from the beginning: use magic not *against* your ex-wife, but positively *for* your son. That would be the route I would take first, and resort to other measures only as a last resort type thing.

[Meadhbh]

I say go for it. While for the most part I respect people's free will I ave no problem forcing them to do something if its the best thing for them or me. While I don't follow the three fold law or the whole karma thing I believe people have free will for a reason the gods won't have let it happen way back when otherwise. On the other hand people can be to emotionally involved in a situation to see what's best or their just to stubborn to give in. In cases like that you have to step in and effect change for the best of everyone dealing with that problem, whatever it may be.

[laserhazel]

I would do a clearing spell to remove all negativity concerning the isssue, this way you would actually see what is truly best for your son and not just the personality desires of your soon to be ex-wife and yourself.

You wrote:
That's pretty much what I figured I would do.

I just wish there was a "Stop being such a bitch!" spell. She told me yesterday how she is going to do whatever she can to make my life hell. Nice, huh?
__________________

You are in the essence of a power struggle and this is why some have suggested a "best thing for your son spell" but if you do a clearing spell with a white candle, and release all negative sentiment or harboured resentments towards your soon to be ex-wife, it is guaranteed that you will attain the optimal outcome of this situation. This is, of course, unless you have an overlying turmoil in your life which is rooted deeper than the sacrifice of a sacred union.

In any case, I send you love and light.

Blessed be

[Phoenix Element]

If you're concerned about free will issues, I'd suggest to rephrase it so that the result is what's best for your son.

[Little Billy]

I need to know how black and white this rule is...

I'm dealing with my soon to be ex-wife. She's giving me a hard time about a custody arrangement with my son.

Is it ok to work a spell so that she will just be reasonable like a normal human being and do what's best for our son instead of being the massive PITA she regularly is?

Screw that. Lay a whammy on the judge. He's the one that matters.