Woman and Men, Paganism...

[Allegra2]

I've gotten into a discussion about the roles of women and men, esp. Pagans. I found some of the replies on the subject quite desturbing. Women who seemed to be fighting against womans rights and womens movement. (And stated that women fighting for rights was the cause of the ills in todays society.)

These are just some of my observations I have made of the local pagan groups...
Many times I am very surprised by some of the things I see at our
pagan gatherings. It seems that many times the women take charge of
organizing the masses. Some things that seem to surprise people
bother me. (For example, a woman splits would well and she gets look
at the attention she gets!) Now I'm sure a good looking man would
get attention to, but I doubt he would get the surpised looks. When
a heavy object needs to be moved there is a call out for men, and
then later for "strong people". Why do we immediatly call on men
unstead of just, "the strong"? Men seem to do more of the physical
work. I know that men natural grow more muscle, but plenty of women
out there can easily rival our men in strength. When the men are
doing some thing, such as hauling firewood, and I wish to help I
don't. I know it shouldn't, but it bothers me to be the only chicky
out there. What do you guys think? Is there a good reason for
this "seperation of the sexes" in certian areas, or is it just a
result of our upbringings and the general census all around us
outside the Pagan community? I'm not suggesting that there is not
equal treatment, but more that there seems a seperation of what
duties are among the sex's that I do not understand.

Thoughts?

Allegra

[Valnorran]

When a heavy object needs to be moved there is a call out for men, and
then later for "strong people". Why do we immediatly call on men
unstead of just, "the strong"? Men seem to do more of the physical
work. I know that men natural grow more muscle, but plenty of women
out there can easily rival our men in strength.
Generally, no they can't. Men naturally have greater upper body strength than women. There are exceptions, of course, but they are relatively few and far between.

What do you guys think? Is there a good reason for
this "seperation of the sexes" in certian areas,
Yep. There are some things women are GENERALLY inherently better at, and vice versa. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, and people shouldn't be excluded from some things or required to do others based solely on sex. If you want to help haul firewood, go for it. Personally, I like watching women swinging axes, sledge hammers, and such. I would stare but mainly because it would turn me on. Ever watch that blonde woman on "Mythbusters?" The one with all the tattoes? She welds and grinds and cuts metal. One time she handled a jackhammer. I enjoy watching her work. Similarly, I get somewhat annoyed when people expect me to know how to fix things just because I'm a man. I don't understand mechanics or electronics or sports.

[Illuminatus]

Why do they call for a man? Well, I think they want someone who will be good at the thing they want done. Like, if I have a problem with my plumbing in my apartment, I call my landlord because he's a plumber. Usually men are stronger than women. That's the rule. There are exceptions. One possibility is that it's not that men are more able, maybe they're more willing. That is, men won't balk at the idea of lifting, where some girls might bitch and moan about it and not help.

[Philbo]

Hmmm... perhaps it's one of those nature vs. nurture debates.

In most societies and religions, men and women have different roles that are specificly designed for them by those in charge. In Judeo-Christian Europe and America, women (traditionally) are supposed to be very domestic, doing all the housework and behaving rather quiet and modest, while the men hunt and chop wood and get involved in politics and war. Among Native Americans and Pagans, women had roles of greater responsibility, and more often worked alongside the men and had their own voices in politics, and were often revered more for their life-giving quallities.

Men and women are clearly different, but do these differences also dictate their behavior? I personally don't know very many women who enjoy doing traditionally masculine things (but I do know a few) such as hunting, construction work, auto repair, sports, etc. Similarily, I don't know many men who enjoy traditionally feminine things (shopping, applying make-up, etc.) I've seen scientific studies that show some of the differences in the thinking patterns if men and women, so they seem to be made to excel at different things naturally, and are born with certain tendencies, but personally I don't think that man or woman should try to fit into a masculine or feminine role just because of the status quo.

Interesting case study: I have some friends who are maried with kids. The father is rather sensitive and emotional compared to most men, and has a great interest in arts and crafts. The mother is part Indian, very headstrong, never wears a dress, and will kick your *** if you tell her to be more feminine. Both of them rebel against the traditional masculine/feminine stereotypes, and tried to raise their children without placing gender-specific roles on them. Yet the daughter loves dolls and loves to change clothes many times a day and pose in front of the mirror (or in front of any audience she can find) and wants to be a ballerina, and the son loves cars, trucks, construction vehicles, and tv shows with big explosions. The parents still can't figure out how this happened.

[Allegra2]

Do you think that maybe women would be better adept to do physical things if they were raised differently? ie: Complaining that they have to lift this heavy thing!!

If we had been raised to shut up and do it (as I was raised), instead of taught that it's OK and we shouldn't have to do it would things be different? If women were encourage instead of discouraged to grow muscle and be as strong as they can, as many men are, do you think there would be a higher number of strong women, who can rival men in every day strenght? I do know quite a few, one being my mum.

I am stronger over all than my bf, but he has stronger hands and arms. I am more capable of using my strength, and controlling it. He weight lifts all the time. When we were baling hay, it was just a bunch of girls. When some boys came there to help, who hadn't been there before, they couldn't keep up with the girls.

Do you think things would be different when it comes to the "bad" aspects of women and physical activities if society raised women to be tougher? (By bad, I mean complaining, and not doing work they are capable of, and trying to get some one else to do it. Which only a few, but far to many, women do.)

[Sequoia]

Do you think that maybe women would be better adept to do physical things if they were raised differently? ie: Complaining that they have to lift this heavy thing!!

If we had been raised to shut up and do it (as I was raised), instead of taught that it's OK and we shouldn't have to do it would things be different? If women were encourage instead of discouraged to grow muscle and be as strong as they can, as many men are, do you think there would be a higher number of strong women, who can rival men in every day strenght? I do know quite a few, one being my mum.

Unless you are taking testosterone or other growth hormones, no amount of physical training will make a woman physically MORE powerful than a man. Generalizations, of course, and by all means, a woman who body-builds is going to be stronger than a man who sits in his mom's basement eating twinkies. But overall, in general, men are taller, stronger, and have more endurance.

Now, get a man sick, and watch him crumble! ;) And that's where we come in, with a different kind of strength and endurance.


I am stronger over all than my bf, but he has stronger hands and arms. I am more capable of using my strength, and controlling it. He weight lifts all the time. When we were baling hay, it was just a bunch of girls. When some boys came there to help, who hadn't been there before, they couldn't keep up with the girls.

That's a nice, fun, single example. Worldwide, that just isn't the case. :)


Do you think things would be different when it comes to the "bad" aspects of women and physical activities if society raised women to be tougher? (By bad, I mean complaining, and not doing work they are capable of, and trying to get some one else to do it. Which only a few, but far to many, women do.)

Frankly, if there's a guy out there who is willing to do it, why should I? If he needs the help (IE if the task takes more than one person, and I'm not going to get in the way), then I will help. But in all honesty, why put too many cooks in the kitchen when all it takes is one?

Oh... and by the way... I am a very large, extremely strong woman. I can heft over 100lbs and carry it around (ask my girlfriend). But when it comes to straight lifting, esp. such as used in a physical labour job, I find that men just straight have me beat out. It's not an insult, or a sexism- it's physical fact.

There's nothing shameful in being physically weaker. We can do a hell of a lot of things that men can't, and vice versa. Variety is the spice of life, and the idea of complete "equalization" of the sexes (IE "*whine* we're all the saaaaame, it's just cuuuulllture!") is really ... sad. It limits variety, it limits people's expression, it limits perception of a REAL thing.

The sexes are different, physically and neuro-chemically. Them's just the facts, Max! And no amount of "culture equalization" will change it.

[SoulHealer]

Well I was raised surrounded by males...and competed on equal terms as the boys -they certainly never made any allowance for me being female. But the older we got the clearer and clearer it became that I was different to the boys. I was better and some things and they were better and other things. So I think nature does play a big part (though I actually have a high level of male hormones for a female as well)

I actually say I believe in equal rights not equality meaning I believe if a man and a woman compete on equal terms then if the woman is up to the job and better than the man she should do it (and vice versa) but I don't believe in lowering the standards to allow more women into things

Personally I think women should concentrate more on the positive side and strengths we have as women and stop trying to act male. Women have strengths most men don't have and we should embrace them

[Myrica]

I have three brothers, and in school I'm the only girl in our class. I am study something with network administyration and programming etc. so thats something not many girls do or seem to like. I'm also very technical and usually I feel thats seen as typical boys quality. But it doesn't bothe me anymore. Friend groups, going out, school, everywhere I go I'm surrounded by guys. I used to dress in sweaters and long pants and wide Tshirts but I try to stop that, I don't want to try to fit in with something like that, it's absolutely not necesary.
I just want to be a beautiful girl with good qualities who enjoys herself even if she is always surrounded by guys.

[AmericanMe]

Ever watch that blonde woman on "Mythbusters?" The one with all the tattoes? She welds and grinds and cuts metal. One time she handled a jackhammer. I enjoy watching her work. Similarly, I get somewhat annoyed when people expect me to know how to fix things just because I'm a man. I don't understand mechanics or electronics or sports.

Nah, I prefer the redhead.

[BlueMoon13]

Nah, I prefer the redhead.
Ooooooo! Why,thank you! _witchball

[Aislingraven]

Well.. I am going to add my two cents to this one since it has been an ongoing topic in my entire life. I am 6ft 2in with a large frame (say a mans medium frame).. I am strong. but that isn't because of birth, it's because it was just me and my mum and I had to cut fire wood and so on.. I don't look masculine and I am partial to glitter (he he ) but I am not an extremist, I feel that 1. no one is better and 2. men and woman have their balance in all things.. it isn't a matter of who can do what imo, it's what is more natural for who and what works for that person or couple.

I want to bring up something that happened to me and my hubby.
Our car broke down in the middle of a main road (we were in the turning lane). He hoped in to steer, I got behind it and pushed. This was the natural order. We didn't decide verbally.. it's just what happened. It worked and worked effectively and we got the heck out of the main road.

While I was pushing, some lady in her car screams
"Just like a da*& man, make the woman push the car".

*I* was offended... and so was he really.. he kept asking me if he did something wrong. :heartbrea
I was fuming. I am not trying to be stronger than a man. I am just trying to be me. and by golly, she needed therapy.
:meanhead:

[Valnorran]

Nah, I prefer the redhead.
The redhead is prettier, but she's too hard core vegetarian for me. The mere sight of meat sickens her. The blonde seems much more grounded to me. Did you see the one where the redhead was painted silver? mmmmmmmmmm... body paint...

Actually, chicks with tools was something I never thought of until I saw it. I kinda liked watcher her weld. Then in the episode where she handled that jackhammer... oh, baby...
Then theres the chick breaking through a wall with a sledgehammer in some commercial for headache medicine.

[Rhianna813]

I think that years of societal norms can really take over when men and women enter a group evironment. I think there are lost opportunties for personal growth when people just do what they are "supposed to". I also think that people want to impress those around them in group settings so they naturally lean towards what they know. Both men and women can get an ego boost from this.

The Pagan community seems to be split on the traditional vs progressive ways. Some Pagans are really into equality and moving away from traditional roles. While others take the whole Lord n Lady thing more to heart I guess. They feel that traditional roles are apart of the cosmic way and work well. I am definitely not from that camp LOL

I think people need to worry less about getting things done "perfectly or quickly" when they are basically in social situations and consider opening up some these tasks to anyone who is interested. You might be surprised what you CAN do and what you might be GOOD at or HAPPY doing. If a woman is happy chopping wood or a man is happy cooking - let them.

Rhianna

[merlo]

Being from the south, we're raised to be polite to the women folks. Open doors, carry stuff for 'em, treat 'em special. For me, it's being polite. If you wanta do something, say so. You wouldn't hurt my feelings. But you should say something instead of holding it in if it bothers you. :kooky:

[Sequoia]

Being from the south, we're raised to be polite to the women folks. Open doors, carry stuff for 'em, treat 'em special. For me, it's being polite. If you wanta do something, say so. You wouldn't hurt my feelings. But you should say something instead of holding it in if it bothers you. :kooky:

*snuggles!*

[equinox2]

Being Pagan, I see it as balance, just as I see a lot of things as a balance.

Here, I think we need to balance “excessive separation” vs. “excessive equality”. We’ve all seen the harm caused by exaggerating the differences between men and women, especially in the past 100 years. It wasn’t that long ago that women were thought to be less intelligent, less capable, and generally of less worth than men. The feminist movement responded to this, and brought about much needed women’s liberation and freedom.

On the other hand, there are indisputable, scientifically measured differences. Men are stronger. Women have a higher tolerance for pain (they have to get through childbirth). Men are better able to visualize spatial relationships (evolved due to hunting with spears). Women are better able to manage several tasks simultaneously. And so on. There are significant brain differences too – different ways of thinking, different things that get one uncontrollably mad. Many of these are due to evolution, and are not just cultural.

Overall, these two ideas must be balanced. Everyone’s rights and freedoms need to be preserved, yet at the same time, acknowledging these differences allows us to live better in accordance with who we are. I think the Pagan community, because the recognize both the Lady and the Lord, and because the idea of balance is already there, is in a good position to maintain a good balance. Us Pagan men can play a role, and have men-only sweatlodges and such. Things like that are appropriate for both sexes.

Take care-

[Valkie]

it's not just in the Pagan community either.

Hubby and I have always had the traditional roll reversal. I went to work, he stayed home with the kids. This was expecially true when we were getting ready to get married.

His mother wanted us to get married in a Catholic church, we didn't give a damn either way. The priest, of coarse, wanted us to go through marriage counseling before he preformed the ceremony. Now, mind you, at this point in time we had already been together for 5 years and had 2 children together. The workbook that we were given as part of our counseling was so sexually bias it was either laugh at it or get mad as hell... we decided to laugh.

That stupid thing had stuff in it like "the woman's job was to keep a clean house and make sure that supper was ready for the man when he came home from work" and "it's the woman's job to take care of the kids" We went through the entire book and switched the roles. The priest wasn't too happy when he read "the (man's) job was to keep a clean house and make sure that supper was ready for the (woman) when (s)he came home from work" :T Then there was us degrading him for trying to tell us "you know, a woman's body changes after she has children and she won't look like she does now as she gets older and kids will take up a lot of time that you are use to spending together".... no shit dumb ass. Exactly when did you pay attention to the part about us telling you that we already had 2 children?

Anyways, he wasn't happy with us... he called me the week before the wedding saying that he refused to perform the ceremony because we weren't 'serious' enough about it. We just celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary earlier this week.

[Tiarcana]

This is a subject that can definitely go round-and-round... rehashed and glazed over in many different forms. I am definitely not a weak female, but there are some things I cannot lift and I'm certainly not an electrician. I can learn how to do "manly things" if taught and do not shy away from reactions I may get from others when I change the oil in my own car.

It comes down to this... I'm not waiting for someone to offer assistance if it's something I can tackle on my own... I'm just too impatient. I should, however, garner some points for realizing when I'm not in the know and call in the professionals or friends to help, be it to move furniture or the dreaded crawl space inspection under my house.

Think of all that could be accomplished in the time that we argue/debate over the proper place of gender in society. This man/woman dilemna that so many worry about should be scrapped... if you can and want to do something... go for it within your own moral limits. Life is too short to wait around on the opposite sex to take care of a "gender-classified" task (well, breastfeeding aside).

...I'm rambling now... not even making a point, but just sharing my thoughts on this topic!

[Dove]

Do you think that maybe women would be better adept to do physical things if they were raised differently? Having been brought up in a "farming/ranching" lifestyle ... I can lift bales, and stack hay with the best of them!!
I can also operate ANY of the heavy equipment involved in running a farm, and am proud to be able to do so.

*laughing*
I CERTAINLY don't believe it's damaged my femininity in any way.
Personally ... I love the natural differences between Men and Woman,
And the roles in life, that these differences have created.

But I’m certainly not blind to the problems, and small mindedness, that these same roles have produced over the ages.
It’s sad in lots of ways.

Really I think it’s all about the individual, and balance in all things.
A whiney lazy woman will use any excuse not to join in what might need doing.
And a thick headed man will use any excuse to create power for him self, by squashing the abilities and intelligence of women around him.

As a woman …
I absolutely LOVE the day and age I’m living!!!
Never before have woman had More, or Better opportunities to go out and Do WHAT EVER they want to do, career and lifestyle wise …
While at the same time,
Retaining the softer aspects of our gender, and be appreciated and respected for them!!!

*wondering*
… erm … did all of that make any sense??? :shaker: