child studies...

[bansidhe]

at a interschool debate recently, i heard someone propose that people should be 'licensed' to have children, i.e. they should be made to do a unit on 'child studies' as such in order to qualify them as parents.

what do you guys think about that ??? should we be forced to complete a course to be allowed to have children?

take care and brightest blessings,
bans. :bubbles:

[Da Witch]

I have been lecturing on parental licencing for like 4 years now.

I had a friend who hooked up with this drugged out looser.......she got pregnant, had a little girl, couldn't afford a place to live (much less feed the child), she ended up living under the boardwalk with her 6 month old daughter !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She ended up giving up for adoption to a family friend of hers. Went back out got knocked up again, had a place to live but was feeding her 1 month old son SUGAR WATER because her drugs and cigarettes were more important to her than having formula for her child. She again gave the child to her family friends, went out and got pregnant a 3rd time.

I really wish the gov't could force this woman and others like her to have a hysterectomy.

I know more f*ct up parents than good ones but this is the only story I e\will share with you .

More to come if you want to hear them.

[Illuminatus]

We had this debate in Political Pagan a few months ago. I think we came to the conclusion that the idea is as dumb as it is unenforcable.

[Swanspirit]

I think we could have some kind of required course....... we require it of people to DRIVE and yet for people to bring children into the world..... we require nothing........but on the other hand to enforce it would be such an invasion of privacy and a loss of rights......
but perhaps we could require child care classes of people who expect to receive welfare???
I am a dreamer........who wishes that some people took better care of their children than their cars.....or maybe I just worked with abused kids for too long.......
Love and light
Swannie

[LadyWinter]

You would have to set guidelines for the license..what kind of guidelines would you set? What if some one had a child without a license what would be the punishment? What kind of program would there be so that birthcontrol could become an affordable option for all?

You! ...........Yes you over there!.....I see that look in your eye....Dont look at your wife like that.....let me see your license!!

Slan Astar
LadyWinter

[Swanspirit]

Exactly ......... how aabout enforcement !!! well maybe AFTER the fact........ perhaps a child care class as a requirement to receiving public assistance?? I know that isnt the original idea but as close as I can see anything feasable....
I dont know what happens in China with the one child law........ I DO know that female babies are abandoned on a regular basis......left to die because male babies are preferred .....
I wish it werent so expensive... to adopt a chinese baby...........
siggggh
Love and Light
Swannie

[Sequoia]

I think it's a wonderful IDEA to have a "licence". . . I think it would be an EXCELLENT thing for all parents to take a certain number of units in child developement, stress management, etc. . . in a utopian world I think all these things would happen.

However, how would you make it all work? yes, birth control is available to the masses, but look at that controversy. . . . between that and abortion and such. How do you think people would react if you started telling them that they had to prove they were qualified to be parents?

And who's to say what a qualified parent is or isn't?

between cultures, accepted norms, special cercomstances, etc. . . . it's impossible to say anything except things that are already laws, such as not beating your kid silly. And even then, in some places you can spank, in others you cannot.

So yes, while I think it is a wonderful idea, I think it is nothing more than that: an idea. There is no practical application in "the home of the free". . . because we do what we darned well please anyway. Look at drug addicts. They simply go underground. Do we want women giving birth in cellars and sewers and caves and hidden places without assistance, simply because they do not want to loose their child, but they couldn't pay for, or didn't have the time for, or countless other reasons that they couldn't do the units. You can't control that kind of thing, because it seriously infringes on the rights we see as a given here in America. We are entirely determined to not have government have control over our personal lives.

Besides, mothers? Let's say you had trouble with classroom environments. . . you are a wonderful mother, but you have trouble with reading, or absorbing things in a classroom environment. . . or what they're teaching ENTIRELY conflicts with your VALID way to raise a child. . . . do you really want to have someone take away your children because the government says you're an unfit mother?

Abuse is one thing, but with so many variables on parenting. . . it is virtually impossible to have a fair liscencing situation for parenting. Because there really is no "right way" just as there is no "right religion" . . . unless you're abusing your child, you are totally entitled to raise that kid however you want. Its your child, it's your and their lives.

Besides. . . this is only one step away from laws telling you WHAT you have to do while raising your child. . . . set religions, set curriculums, set safety codes, set time tables, set everything. . . I don't want to, in the future, be told that because say I've seen a counsiler, I cannot have children. . . Can we say selective breeding? I'm not cattle. No thank you.

Utopia is one thing, and it's a wonderful idea, but there's really no way you could do this.

[Shadowulfe]

I voted No myself....allthough I agree with swanspirit about maikng it where the people on welfare had to do it, i just feel it would be a violation of civil rights.

[Da Witch]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
Exactly ......... how aabout enforcement !!! well maybe AFTER the fact........ perhaps a child care class as a requirement to receiving public assistance?? I know that isnt the original idea but as close as I can see anything feasable....
I dont know what happens in China with the one child law........ I DO know that female babies are abandoned on a regular basis......left to die because male babies are preferred .....
I wish it werent so expensive... to adopt a chinese baby...........
siggggh
Love and Light
Swannie

Ok but there are plenty of parent who ARE NOT on welfare who beat and neglect their children..................so there goes that Idea

[Radocs]

I voted yes. Why? I work at KB Toys and some of the parents that come in there should NOT be allowed to have those kids. I saw a father actually nudge his small daughter to move to the checkout by applying the toe of his boot to her cheek. It wasn't really a kick, but there was some force in there. Some of the kids come in filthy, some wander in for an hour or two without any sign of the parents... Maybe it's just my town, but I definately think people should need a license to have kids.

[Da Witch]

Originally posted by Swanspirit

I dont know what happens in China with the one child law........ I DO know that female babies are abandoned on a regular basis......left to die because male babies are preferred .....
I wish it werent so expensive... to adopt a chinese baby...........
siggggh
Love and Light
Swannie

The child is murdered

[Sequoia]

uhhh. . . no offense, but do you all think I shouldn't have been born? My mom was on welfare, because my parents were divorced and she couldn't make enough money to keep us in preschool. So she decided to be a better parent and stay home with us (she couldnt' afford otherwise anyway, we were too young for school yet).

Just becasue people are on welfare doesn't mean that they're druggies or alchies or that they abuse their kids or spend all the money on frivoulous things. . . some people are that way because life is hard and they need help, and the government helps. My mother works two jobs now because she doesn't like being on welfare, and doesn't want to be on it. But she was not able to do this until a few years ago, when my brother and I were able to take care of themselves. I don't agree with that idea, that those on welfare shouldn't be allowed to have children. It's their business. And if there are alcoholics etc involved, it becomes abuse and an issue for CPS.

People on welfare aren't the dregs of society, they're people having a hard time. If you're going to require child care classes for them, require them for all. Be sensible here.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Shadowulfe
I voted No myself....allthough I agree with swanspirit about maikng it where the people on welfare had to do it, i just feel it would be a violation of civil rights.


I voted no--even contemplating who would make the standards and how they would be enforced causes nightmares. And the idea of making people on welfare do it illustrates of the problems. Who says that people on welfare are automatically bad parents? The majority of people on welfare don't stay there long, for most it operates as a safety net exactly as it was envisioned. When I was a kid my dad was laid off--we got welfare for about three months. Those three months would have made my parents in the group 'that had to do it'................

Plus--money does not make people good parents........

Regards,

Maggie

[Swanspirit]

with abused children for years...... I would never assume that anyone on welfare was less than anyone else.... it was the only workable approach that I could think of for educational purposes.. but now that you mention it there could be classes in the hospitals where people go to give birth as well.... and maybe for those doing home births something through the midwife......maybe as a requirement with the birth certificate application ???
I have worked with mothers who had to be required to have thier six week check up after childbirth in order to get their BCP's who didnt know which ORIFICE their child was born from ..... so education is a good thing ......
in my estimation......
Love and Light
Swannie

[StormChaser]

Mostly I say Yes out of sarcasm... although there is a part of me that believes in historectomys and castration.

~Storm Chaser

[Sita]

id have to think about that for a second.....

[Demeter]

Unenforceable, and the poll question doesn't offer enough options to give a reasonable sample. I can't say yes, I can't say no, I do have an opinion ....

A variation on licensed parenting ... how about a system where if you took courses and were licensed (this would be entirely optional), you got to be a full-time parent -- with a regular salary, vacation and pension options. Salary would be better than minimum wage, not enough to be wealthy, with cost of living increases and per-child increases. You'd have to take regular brushup courses and continuing education, just like any other profession .... Job security until the youngest child is 20 and then a pension after that. This would enable people to live in families where one person works outside of the home and the other raises the kids, and there is social and professional respect for the stay at home parent. It would be a career like any other.

Non-licensed parents don't get the bennies. If you have kids, you can take the licensing exam after completing the course work. This encourages people to get the education. (I know it's an option I'd have taken when I was 19 and had a baby and no job skills!)

(I got this from a SF book I read recently. I do realize the book does not go into who pays for this. I believe it would have to be tax-financed.)

[Amora]

I say if there was a way to make it work go for it!!!!!

As far as subjecting welfare recipients to it, NY either tried or did enforce a law (not sure) that welfare would only cover the first child. I believe welfare is there to help people in hard times, yes. But for those who are already on welfare and are getting pregnant again??? I'm sorry, no way... If you can't afford where you are now, you shouldn't be having more children! Therefore I have to say I think the education should be introduced into the welfare system. Bash my opinions if you will but I feel strongly on this one!

If you can't take care of your children don't get pregnant in the first place!!!! :flamer:

[Sequoia]

Demeter: I LOVE your idea. If there was some way to get it to work, I would MORE than happily pay for it through taxes, etc. It would be wonderful.

[zhowlingwolf]

I voted yes for each and everyone prior to having a child.
I have taken classes myself anyway because I wanted to be the best parent I can !!! I still make mistakes all the time, and I'm learning to do better all the time. Wish they had a decern violent and abusive people though/ not by class , but by who they are !!!

[Swanspirit]

Some of the indicators for a potentially abusive ..distant or neglectful mom are there at birth..........and noted by nurses and intervention takes place very early .......if there is time..........
Love and Light
Swannie

[Pheonix]

Hi am i the only one who see a problem with parents being forced to listen to some one else tell them how to raise their children? i too have volunteered with abused children and i feel ggreat pain for them. but most parents are not that way and judging who is before the fact is impossible. I have seen to many friends have their children taken away because they themselves grew up in an abused home and the gov't didn't feel that they could take the risk on them. Most fo those people have fought for their children and now have them and are wonderful parents however their children have missed out on years with there mothers because some stranger judged them without a right.
Not to mention what happens to pregnacies that come about wothout a liscence? Are those children aborted? do we give them up goverment run foster homes until and if a home can be found for them? Sometimes in life you have to take a risk if any joy is to be found.

[Swanspirit]

on nutrition...... child development......and basic health information and medical care......
options on ways to handle things wouldnt be too much to ask new parents to be.... as part of the awesome responsiblity of having children..... I would hope that responsible parents might want to at least have look see to find out if there was something that could help them............not telling someone how to raise thir children.........although there are stil battles in this country in individual states that allow corporal punishment aka HITTING for children in schools..............
hmmmmmmmmmm another thread.........
raises its potentially controversial head ......
Love and Light
Swannie

[bansidhe]

skools are allowed to use corporal punishment if they wish, it is up to the skool to decide. thats for south australia anyways, im not sure about the rest of australia. i havent been here long enough! :)
and swannie, in china, they generally kill the baby upon birth, discovery or force and abortion. there have been reports of abortions at 8 mths. *shudder* another debate we did.
i personally think that there should be some system of education, cos at school ive worked with younger kids whose parents have not been even close to equipped to manage them. one example is matt, who has autism. his parents ended up divorcing over it and now he gets moved between here (adelaide) and queensland, depending how long it takes before his parents cant handle the stress anymore.
theres lots of kids like that at my skool, and our school doesnt even offer the child and family studies course that we can do in our two senior years, which sux.
there you go. since i started this thread, i though id better put in my $0.03 ! :)

take care and brightest blessings,
bans. :bubbles:

[Myst]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
I would hope that responsible parents might want to at least have look see to find out if there was something that could help them............not telling someone how to raise thir children.........although there are stil battles in this country in individual states that allow corporal punishment aka HITTING for children in schools..............

I agree. Hitting is not allowed here (in Canada) period. I'm not even going to post my thoughts on that (another thread).

And technically babies are able to be outside of the womb and live at that age, so it's no longer abortion, it's basically forcing her into labour earlier then murder.

[witchywench]

Ok this is a very emotive subject, but I voted yes to a license to be obtained - after parenting classes.

How to be enforce dunno but I have seen so many abused children, unloved, dirty, improperly clothed to break my heart.

I work in a large primary school where they are 3yrs to 11yrs and believe me seeing an abused or negleted child of any age makes me :crazy: :wah: an knowing some were even were born drug addicts OMG! By the way abuse doesn't understand money!

Something must be done, just how I don't know!

[Methanespirit]

I do not think that any type of government regulation or a legalized system of limiting children from being born to incompetant parents is workable. Although, from what I've seen over the years, it is enough to make one believe that such should be possible. Such legislation also has other implications, as to where such a system would logically lead, toward the limiting of freedoms and other natural liberties. It is a tragedy that we have so many children, even in this country, who are the products of incompetant parents. Fortunately, many of them end up with loving and caring foster parents. Considering this problem world-wide, ( examples: Brazil, India and eastern Europe ), it would require a massive effort to change. My friend in India often complains (and rightly so) that American cats and dogs are better treated than orphans in his country. In fact, I believe that this problem is out of control internationally. It is that we do not hear much about it over our national media.

[Mythrel]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
We had this debate in Political Pagan a few months ago. I think we came to the conclusion that the idea is as dumb as it is unenforcable.

enough said...
Mythrel

[Semele]

My only comment is this: People have to be liscensed to drive cars and there are still thousands of wrecks a day.

[Twilight Garden]

I voted 'yes'. Not that people should be licensed so to speak, but that they should go to a counseling session. In my county/state, anyone getting a divorce with children has to go to a "Kids First" class. The divorce is not signed by the judge until both parents have gone to the class. Anyone getting married gets a discount on the marriage license if you go to a marriage counselor for a four hour (not all at one time) session. I think that a "Kids First" kind of class would be really good for first time parents. There is no test to pass, you just have to attend and listen. I wouldn't think it would be a bad idea if states required it.

[Methanespirit]

to detect abusive, and criminally minded people, using Sidereal Astrology. In fact this was one of the first studys that was undertaken in my early training days, nearly30 years ago.

............Methane

[Astara Seague]

I said yes
it is a hard question but I think some people should never have kids!

[cloudspanther]

I like the idea of parents being paid if they attend and having it as a salary for staying at home. This country is realizing more and more that not having a parent at home is what is leading to alot of the issue's with our kids today. But in this society we can not afford to have only one parent working. So the idea of having a salary for a parent to stay at home with benifits etc for doing so would be very productive I think. Personally I have taken many parenting class's and continue to do so, cause I think that maybe there will be something new that I havent tried that will work. LOL. I have children with add/adhd and keep them on the bare limit on meds, use diet, and therapy to help control it.

Lady bless,
clouds

[Chibi-Fallon]

This country is realizing more and more that not having a parent at home is what is leading to alot of the issue's with our kids today.

I think that's oversimplifying. Two parents at home won't do any good if those parents are still psychological children. The problem America is finding is that we're *bad* parents even if we are at home.

And hey, they can make a woman wait 24 hours to get an abortion, and make her look at materials. Why not the same thing for having a kid?

[SilverAnnie]

... is that there is supposed to be a place to learn to be a parent. and that's by watching our parents. i know when i had my own children that all the time i spent babysitting - often under protest - and helping out wiht diaper duty for my much younger sibs - paid off in aces. because i had seen my own mother nurture and care for an infant sibling, i felt very confident in my ablity to care for a baby, even as a very young, very new mother. sure there are things i decided to do differently, but i did learn a lot about babies and how to care for them.

the suggestion to license childbearing shrieks to me of the patriarchy's attempt, once again, to corral the life-bearing ability of the Great Mother. if we want better mothers, we have to be better mothers ourselves and we have to reach out and mother those who have no mothers.... and we must all i think strive to connect with the Great Mother....

[aluokaloo]

no that is stupid. nuiff said. granted, some people shouldn't have children, but no one can truyely tell unless they decide to become parents. That's a frightening thought right there. Too many abuses could occur waaay too fast with that one. Thinmk about the stupidty of thast if it were legalized, all of u\s could have our kids taken away because we were the wrong religions. What about the racists out there, that could send there grandchildren off to a piss poor foster home where they got beaten everyday because they were not pure blooded, what about all the people who have government aid? What if your kids were sent off to rich people's houses, and you were not allowed to have children just because you're income was a few thousand dollars lower then it should be. Or taking away your kids because you do not follow the correct political party. Is this america? or communist china? Come on, there is no argument here. That would be a horrible crime, unless you are neglecting and/or abusing your children, no one I repeate no one has thr right to say you can't have kids. It does smack of patriarchy to me. Besides they do have programs for people who want to become parents. One is not required to take them, because no two parents will parent the same way.

[Willow Rosette]

I kinda think this is a catch 22 kinda question.

One part of me says hell no. The government shouldnt have any say so on weather or not I decide to have a child.

The other part of me says there are so many women out there that refuse/cant dont know how whatever to be a decent parent much less a good one that I like the idea.

I love the idea of being paid to stay home. I work 10-12 hours a day to support my child and would love to have my daughter be my "job" expecially since she is already. I would just be blessed to work one job and not two.

But over all I would have to say no, simply because I would never want someone else telling me if I can or cannot have a baby.

[Dalia]

I believe there are some people who should have kids but I believe everybody has the right to decide wether they want kids or not, and when they want to. Making people get a licence to get kids violates that right. Besides, taking a course and getting a licence doesnt garantee that the person will be a good parent. And, for thousands of years, human beings have given birth and raised their children without a licence and everything worked out fairly well.
Another point is, what if someone gets pregnant and doesnt have the licence to be a parent? Abortion? Adoption? It is simply wrong in so many ways . . .

[Lacuna]

My only comment is this: People have to be liscensed to drive cars and there are still thousands of wrecks a day.

My thoughts exactly. It is a great idea, but forcing people to take a class on parenting does not mean they will retain what they hear, or be capable of implementing what they have learned. There are a lot of different schools of parenting theory out there, which one would be taught? It would be impossible to teach everyone how to properly take care of a child considering no form of discipline, nutritional plan, etc. works for all children. Call me paranoid, but I would fear someone would step in and say, "you aren't doing it exactly as we told you, I'm taking your children."

[Lacuna]

And hey, they can make a woman wait 24 hours to get an abortion, and make her look at materials. Why not the same thing for having a kid?

We have a few programs that do this here. The clinic where I work offers prenatal care. During my pregnancies, I thought I was getting the best by seeing a private doctor. But, after beginning this job I realize I really missed out. It is a good thing I was a reader because my OB never really told me anything other than "everything looks great". Our patients get lots of education prenatally and then we do homevisits afterwards. There is also a program called Parents As Teachers or something like that where the nurses talk to them about developmental stages, etc. It is just during the baby phase though. I only wish it could continue into childhood...