Isis and Hathor

[Arion]

To those familiar with the Egyptian pantheon...
Are Isis and Hathor basically the same goddess when it comes down to it? They seem really similar and I understand that Isis absorbed most of Hathor's characteristics later on. I've heard that Hathor was the original mother of Horus, and they both seem to be universal mother figures. Actually Nut, Isis and Hathor all seem very similar to me. They strike me as different versions of the same celestial mother.

[Khuinaset]

To those familiar with the Egyptian pantheon...
Are Isis and Hathor basically the same goddess when it comes down to it? They seem really similar and I understand that Isis absorbed most of Hathor's characteristics later on. I've heard that Hathor was the original mother of Horus, and they both seem to be universal mother figures. Actually Nut, Isis and Hathor all seem very similar to me. They strike me as different versions of the same celestial mother.

Het-Hert, Aset, and Nut are all VERY different. Aset is definitely not a universal mother figure, and I don't think Het-Hert would be called that either. I get really different vibes from Het-Hert...she's much more dance and sexuality oriented(at least from what I've read, someone feel free to correct me) than Aset, and she's also the other side to Sekhmet, whom I don't think many would call a universal mother figure ;) I don't know much about Nut, though. I've never read that Het-Hert was originally Heru's mother, but she is the wife of Heru'ur (Heru the elder) if I'm remembering correctly.

Now, the Romanized version of Isis has a lot more in common with Het-Hert than the original Aset did. I'm not sure if I answered your question totally coherently, but I think I did it somewhere in the ramblings ;)

[Arion]

Thanks for your information. I'm not very familiar with Aset at all, so I can't really say much about her, can you suggest any reading material on Her? Apparently the name Hathor means "the house of Horus" or so I read in DJ Conway's Ancient and Shining ones - not sure if she's the most reliable author. Hathor is said to be a celestial cow who gave birth to the universe, Nut is the primordial sky mother, and Isis is said to be the queen of heaven and a mother goddess, that's the connection I was talking about.
I appreciate your input Khuinaset ^_^

[Khuinaset]

Thanks for your information. I'm not very familiar with Aset at all, so I can't really say much about her, can you suggest any reading material on Her? Apparently the name Hathor means "the house of Horus" or so I read in DJ Conway's Ancient and Shining ones - not sure if she's the most reliable author. Hathor is said to be a celestial cow who gave birth to the universe, Nut is the primordial sky mother, and Isis is said to be the queen of heaven and a mother goddess, that's the connection I was talking about.
I appreciate your input Khuinaset ^_^

Try http://www.per-aset.com (http://www.per-aset.com) and http://http/akhet/index.html (http://http/akhet/index.html) . (there's a specific spot for Aset that should be easy enough to find, but my computer is going really slow and I'm trying to download something, or I'd give you a direct link there) Yes, Het-Hert means the House of Heru :) But I do believe it's referring to Heru'ur as opposed to Heru-sa-Aset. From what I've heard I wouldn't trust DJ Conway, though. I'm not too sure on Het-Hert's titles, but I'm *fairly* sure that both of those titles of Aset - or the Queen of Heaven anyways - is a Roman title. I'm not entirely sure though. Aset is a mother goddess in the sense that she's the mother of the Nisuts, but she's not a benelovent(sp?) mother-to-all type goddess. I hope that helps clear things up a little bit :)

[instinct]

Hi purplepanther :) (and shelly ;) )

I always thought that the Heru refered to by "House of Heru" was Heru-sa-Aset (Horus). The title is to do with the kingship. But then so is Heru-wer.. so I'm not entirely sure. Heru-wer is Her consort though.

Hethert-Sekhmet (Hathor) is the Lady of Joy. She's marvellous and warm, full of golden love and music and the glowing warmth of good times. And she's a bit naughty to boot ;)

You could compare Her to the roman 'Isis'.. however I'd say Isis was a bit more motherly and a bit less sexually promiscuous. eheh.

The kemetic Aset is very different to Hathor. She's the stern and cool Mistress of Magic and is certainly not as patient and forgiving as either of the two mentioned above. She's a very powerful presence. Aset is great :D

As for Nut... ohhh I love Her. She's HUGE and abstract. the Lady of the Sky. As vast and cool and calm as the far reaching night sky. As comforting as the embrace of the still and heavy blanket that is the darkness of night.
She's often shown as a navy blue woman, body full of stars, arched over the earth; her hair flowing down and blending in whispy tendrils into the sky.
When I stand outside at night and think about Her I can at once feel the cool, close embrace of Her... the soft breezy touch of Her hair on my face.. and the vastness of Who She is... a feeling like trying to comprehend the size of our universe.

end ramble :)

Hope I gave you some food for thought

[Raintreewolf]

Het-Hert ( Hathor) Patron of: the sky, the sun, the queen, music, dance and the arts. Because of this one of the first real egyptian instruments were created in honor of Hathor, (the sistrum )was a musical instrument formed as a sticklike wooden or metal object, with a frame and small metal disks that rattled when the instrument was shaken by hand. The head of Hathor was often depicted on the handle. The horns of the cow were also commonly incorporated into the design. The instrument produced a soft jangling sound resembling a breeze blowing through papyrus reeds.

Her name translates to "The House of Horus,"

She is the be-loved daughter of Nut and Geb or (Re). Both sister and wife of Osiris, mother of Horus.

Both men and women were her priests (most deities had clerics of the same gender as they). They were often artist's who created illaberate rituals nothing short of art themselves.

Isis is usually depicted in blue dress, whereas Hathor in Red.

Hathor is depicted as having a queenly raiment wearing the sun disk and horns on her head. Her throne usually faces the east.

Some consider her as a mother goddess, she is more often associated with the Greek Goddess Demeter...though the Greeks did supposedly take Hathors atributes and give them to Isis. though I see a rather large difference here....especially in thier colors for one and the fact that Isis has wings and is of the air qualities and Hathor has horns and is earthy in that respect. They are both associated with the moon as well...yet they are both associated with the earth...a duality here.

Isis is beautiful and wonderful too and they do have much in common and than again alot not in common.

And yes.......Nut or Nuit.....is oh so wonderful! She is the mother of my matron diety...what a lovely mother she is!

Dream interpretation is associated with Hathor and then there are the seven Hathors...( much like the nine muses!) This later part I think, though it is not confirmed has to do with a seven year count of the moon's sycle as this was something many ancient culters used to calculate time, the moon's nodes of three year count as refrence to to solar count...look up ancient calandars for that information ( it is very insiteful information!)

Here is a link to a site I have done a compilation from other sites on Hathor, if you want to learn more about her and not look all over the place http://sacred-pathways.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=335 (http://sacred-pathways.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=335)

( I hope that link works)


I always love a chance to talk about Hathor!
Sorry, I do not have more information on Isis.
Blessings,
~Rain Tree Wolf

[Khuinaset]

Hi purplepanther :) (and shelly ;) )

I always thought that the Heru refered to by "House of Heru" was Heru-sa-Aset (Horus). The title is to do with the kingship. But then so is Heru-wer.. so I'm not entirely sure. Heru-wer is Her consort though.

Oops. Well, I have no idea then. I just assumed it was referring to Heru'ur since she's his consort. :p

The kemetic Aset is very different to Hathor. She's the stern and cool Mistress of Magic and is certainly not as patient and forgiving as either of the two mentioned above. She's a very powerful presence. Aset is great :D

*grins* I actually associate Aset more with heat than cool, because she seems very passionate to me...not really sexually passionate, but "someone here has been wronged and I'm going to FIX IT" passionate, or "I want this and I'm going to get it" passionate. But...I can see how she'd be seen as cool though. I can see her sitting on a throne giving someone a really chilly look :bigblue:

She is the be-loved daughter of Nut and Geb or (Re). Both sister and wife of Osiris, mother of Horus.

I don't think she was the wife of Wesir at any point, but I might be wrong...I just read somewhere that she was shown as a mother of Heru in the very very early dynasties, though. And you know, I've read of her being the daughter of Ra, but never heard anything of her mother.

Isis is usually depicted in blue dress, whereas Hathor in Red.

This is true as far as I know, but I'd also like to add that red could be taken as one of Aset's colors too, as the tyet, sometimes called the buckle or knot of Aset, was red.

They are both associated with the moon as well...yet they are both associated with the earth...a duality here.

Isis is beautiful and wonderful too and they do have much in common and than again alot not in common.

I don't know about Het-Hert, but I don't think Aset as associated with the moon until Greek/Roman times. If anything I think she'd be more of a solar deity; I would think it'd be the same for Het-Hert as one of the Eyes of Ra.

Also, I rechecked that link earlier and it somehow ended up linking to someplace I've never even visited before :eyebrow: So here's the link to the specific essays I was talking about:

The Greek/Roman Isis (http://www.philae.nu/philae/romanIsis.html)
The Kemetic Aset (http://www.philae.nu/philae/kemeticAset.html)
There's links to her myths and such too. :)

Oh, and I found the big Het-Hert site I was thinking of earlier but couldn't remember the URL for:

http://www.hethert.org/TheNameofHet-Hert.html (http://www.hethert.org/TheNameofHet-Hert.html)

[~Anamorata~]

Hi purplepanther :) (and shelly ;) )

I always thought that the Heru refered to by "House of Heru" was Heru-sa-Aset (Horus). The title is to do with the kingship. But then so is Heru-wer.. so I'm not entirely sure. Heru-wer is Her consort though.

Hethert-Sekhmet (Hathor) is the Lady of Joy. She's marvellous and warm, full of golden love and music and the glowing warmth of good times. And she's a bit naughty to boot ;)

You could compare Her to the roman 'Isis'.. however I'd say Isis was a bit more motherly and a bit less sexually promiscuous. eheh.

The kemetic Aset is very different to Hathor. She's the stern and cool Mistress of Magic and is certainly not as patient and forgiving as either of the two mentioned above. She's a very powerful presence. Aset is great :D

As for Nut... ohhh I love Her. She's HUGE and abstract. the Lady of the Sky. As vast and cool and calm as the far reaching night sky. As comforting as the embrace of the still and heavy blanket that is the darkness of night.
She's often shown as a navy blue woman, body full of stars, arched over the earth; her hair flowing down and blending in whispy tendrils into the sky.
When I stand outside at night and think about Her I can at once feel the cool, close embrace of Her... the soft breezy touch of Her hair on my face.. and the vastness of Who She is... a feeling like trying to comprehend the size of our universe.

end ramble :)

Hope I gave you some food for thought

Very well said!!! Isis was very much romanised once chrisitanity came about, tho she did retain many of her original characteristics, and yes the title, Queen of Heaven was given to her by the christians, in order to make her appear less 'pagan' if you will.

Isis and Hathor, at least in my opinion, are nowhere near to being similiar.

[Raintreewolf]

Here is another excellent site with a couple more links to Hathor and links to Isis as well.It is very informative...though as for it's acuracy...I do not know....as it is from 5000 years ago that information has neen derived from.

http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/hathor.htm (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/hathor.htm)

As for the moon association and aspect.....this is from my own symbolic psyche interpretation.
I see the horns of the cow, which are usually associated with the moon and the spere disk between the the horns ( even though red) as a sign of the aspects of the moon. The red disk is the reflection of the Sun upon the face of the moon, is how I see it. She is inthroned on earth and wears the moon headress that reflects her father and her throne is in the west and if the moon is in the west st the time of the sun rising in the east it will reflect either gold or red...also if the sun set before the moon and the moon isclose to setting on the west it will have a red glow cast upon it then as well.

The association with Hathor and the cow is interesting to me in a number of ways....I have noticed that baby cow are very abondant in the months of January and febuary. It is also in the month of January that I have seen the cresent moon about every three years directly on her back...I believe this happens at the mid point of the moons nodes being directly over head following the line of the equater when this happens and not when the moon is either slightly to to the north or the south or her nodes in a three year cycle.These are depicted as the Horns of Isis...it is also the first month of the little sun's birth.

When I clicked on the Isis link just now...I read that alot of the attributes knowen to Hathor have been bestowed upon Isis. http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/isis.htm (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/isis.htm)
As it reads that she was the daughter of Nut and Geb...sister of Osiris as well..... interesting.

In this passage about Isis I see her association with the moon....

The Egyptian goddess Isis is one of the goddesses that stood the test of time. Isis is the Greek form of more ancient Egyptian names, and the name Isis is associated with the word for "throne." Originally, Isis was known as Aset, or Eset. Isis is worshipped today, just as she has been for thousands of years, as the Lady of Heaven, The Great Enchantress, Goddess of Magic, The Goddess of Love and War, the Giver of Life, Queen of the Gods, and Goddess of Marriage and Protection.
Isis was able to give the gift of immortality. For this reason, she is often portrayed wearing or carrying an Ankh. The Ankh is an ancient symbol for eternal life. The symbol is similar to that of a cross, but it has a looped top. Isis is sometimes seen wearing horns and a solar disk atop her head. She is sometimes pictured with wings. Isis is occasionally shown with a cow's head or with the sign of a throne on her head.

Isis is one of the only winged deities in Egyptian myth. She is sometimes representative of the wind, as in the legend of Osiris. One version of the legend tells of Isis using her wings to fill Osiris' mouth and nose with air. For those people who recognize Isis as a force at work in their life; the wind takes on a magical face. The simple act of walking outside on a windy day brings about a refreshing of the soul.

I see them both as having a not too wel ldefined aspect...they seem multi functional and very versitile. Hathor is also associated with Rain and Isis with Wind. I see them as the earth...the queen in-throned...I see them as both the moon and carry an aspect of the sun but in a reflective way.

Who knows really....I mean, it is very hard to proove or disproove. But I always look into the actual visual symbols to draw a lot of my own personal conclusions.

I have never seen the rathful side of either goddess. They both have seemed beautiful to me, both very loving an nurturing. Isis seems more womanly to me though and perhaps a little like Hecate' in some respect. And oddly enough I see Hathor as a young Woman with large innocent cow eyes....she is wise but perpetually youthful and eternal in my minds eye.

I do see, however how they could be associated with the Sun and the male counter part with the moon....as this was something speculated on concerning Ishtar and Tammuz as well....and it does make some sense....they are both valid to me and they both seem inner-exchangable in Sun and Moon aspect. It is all a matter of perspective really.

There are many great links to read out there, one must just take the time to read and come to their own conclusions....how can one person be more correct than another concerning this topic?

Blessing,
~Rain

[Raintreewolf]

Oh here...from one of your links Khuinaset http://www.philae.nu/philae/perankhO.html (http://www.philae.nu/philae/perankhO.html)

Wesir
In myth he is the son of Geb, the earth god, brother and the husband of Isis, and brother to Nephtys andSeth. He was slain by his brother, resurrected by his sister-spouse who also gave him his son Horus whom he in the end took revenge upon his brother Seth.

Here is a good link to some of the Kemetic Dieties http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/hathor.html (http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/hathor.html)

HAhtor is also associated with the mirror....this too has lead me to speculate her association with the moon.

Gosh you know, there is just so much information out there and it all varies in subtle degrees.

Another link http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/H/Ha/Hathor.htm (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/H/Ha/Hathor.htm) ( the source of this links article is from wikipedia )

It is an enchanting journey the discovery of the dieties....enjoy the process and journey

Blessings,
Rain

[instinct]

*grins* I actually associate Aset more with heat than cool, because she seems very passionate to me...not really sexually passionate, but "someone here has been wronged and I'm going to FIX IT" passionate, or "I want this and I'm going to get it" passionate. But...I can see how she'd be seen as cool though. I can see her sitting on a throne giving someone a really chilly look :bigblue:
ohh.. there's no doubt about Her passion. Almost more of a fiery determination eh? Nothing gets in Aset's way ;)
She is indeed a Lady of fire and ice.
I'm lucky never to have met Her when She's feeling angry.. I generally get the "cool". The sitting on throne thing.

Though since I've been planning a big Aset Webenut (Aset Luminous) festival for Her She seems to have warmed up to me a bit. hehe :D

[Khuinaset]

As for the moon association and aspect.....this is from my own symbolic psyche interpretation.

Well, that works too. So long as you don't claim it was that way in ancient times ;)

As it reads that she was the daughter of Nut and Geb...sister of Osiris as well..... interesting.

Well, I've never read of Het-Hert being the daughter of Nut/Geb and Wesir's wife...I had the impression she was Re's daughter and consort to Heru'ur.

In this passage about Isis I see her association with the moon....

The Egyptian goddess Isis is one of the goddesses that stood the test of time. Isis is the Greek form of more ancient Egyptian names, and the name Isis is associated with the word for "throne." Originally, Isis was known as Aset, or Eset. Isis is worshipped today, just as she has been for thousands of years, as the Lady of Heaven, The Great Enchantress, Goddess of Magic, The Goddess of Love and War, the Giver of Life, Queen of the Gods, and Goddess of Marriage and Protection.
Isis was able to give the gift of immortality. For this reason, she is often portrayed wearing or carrying an Ankh. The Ankh is an ancient symbol for eternal life. The symbol is similar to that of a cross, but it has a looped top. Isis is sometimes seen wearing horns and a solar disk atop her head. She is sometimes pictured with wings. Isis is occasionally shown with a cow's head or with the sign of a throne on her head.

The rest are Kemetic titles, but 'goddess of love and war', maybe 'giver of life'(not too sure, that'd make sense with the Wesir myth), and 'goddess of marriage' especially are Greek/Roman titles.

I have never seen the rathful side of either goddess. They both have seemed beautiful to me, both very loving an nurturing. Isis seems more womanly to me though and perhaps a little like Hecate' in some respect. And oddly enough I see Hathor as a young Woman with large innocent cow eyes....she is wise but perpetually youthful and eternal in my minds eye.

Hmm, I think I can see some Hecate in Aset...Hecate strikes me as somewhat similar to Aset and Nebt-Het both. Aset doesn't strike me as loving or nurturing though, unless you really need it. If you're just complaining or got yourself into the situation by your own mistakes, I think she'd be more likely to tell you so and wait until you made an effort before she helped you. But, the first time I met her was when she gave me a hug...so she can indeed be nurturing/comforting sometimes. :)

I do see, however how they could be associated with the Sun and the male counter part with the moon....as this was something speculated on concerning Ishtar and Tammuz as well....and it does make some sense....they are both valid to me and they both seem inner-exchangable in Sun and Moon aspect. It is all a matter of perspective really.

The Egyptians were different like that, I've noticed...whereas Western associations say moon = female, sun = male, the Egyptians had no moon goddesses that I'm aware of, and a lot of sun gods, but also many sun goddesses. Also they had an earth god instead of goddess and sky goddess instead of god...interesting stuff :)

Oh here...from one of your links Khuinaset http://www.philae.nu/philae/perankhO.html (http://www.philae.nu/philae/perankhO.html)

Wesir
In myth he is the son of Geb, the earth god, brother and the husband of Isis, and brother to Nephtys andSeth. He was slain by his brother, resurrected by his sister-spouse who also gave him his son Horus whom he in the end took revenge upon his brother Seth.

No offense meant, but I never said that otherwise, so I'm not sure why that was posted?

It's nice having a civil discussion for once! :p

[Raintreewolf]

Opes, sorry to imply that the moon comment was fact...I think I might have because I have been speculating on the early egyptian calandars and also....the meaning behinde the symbology associated with Hathor and it is through meditation that I was seeing this moon thing. Anyways my appologies.

These is such a duality to her.



Well, I've never read of Het-Hert being the daughter of Nut/Geb and Wesir's wife...I had the impression she was Re's daughter and consort to Heru'ur. [QUOTE]I had come across that information somewhere before actually...and I really liked it...though I was unable to inearth it yesterday...it seemed like a reputable sight I had gotten it off of too. And than again...If Isis took on attributes of Hathor this might be one of those aspects.




[QUOTE=Khuinaset]
The Egyptians were different like that, I've noticed...whereas Western associations say moon = female, sun = male, the Egyptians had no moon goddesses that I'm aware of, and a lot of sun gods, but also many sun goddesses. Also they had an earth god instead of goddess and sky goddess instead of god...interesting stuff :)[QUOTE]

Yet, I come across references to Sun God concerning Egyptian Mythologies.
[QUOTE=Khuinaset]
No offense meant, but I never said that otherwise, so I'm not sure why that was posted? [QUOTE]
None taken. I was actually thinking of it in terms of Isis and Hathor's combined attributes.

My disclaimer; I'm not expert nore do I want to pretend I am one. I have been on a pagan path for twenty years and I have just become attracted to the Kemetic with-in the last couple years...do to Hathor's undenighable presents in my life. I just woke up to her, though I see now in her own subtle way she has been with me since a child...the cow I fell in love with and had a friendship with at age 8 was the first remembered Hathor experience.

So, I'm just going as I can and trying to share oand converse on the things I find...just so you all know!


[QUOTE=Khuinaset]
It's nice having a civil discussion for once! :p
:smooch: Ok, obviously I need to work on my quoteing sorry about that

[Khuinaset]

Oh no - I didn't mean to say that you were implying that. It's just that I don't have a problem with people coming to their own conclusions, unless it really contradicts whatever's known(which I don't think your's does, I can see your point), or unless they claim it as known facts.

About the sun God thing, that's just been an observation of mine. I've never came across an Egyptian moon goddess, but sun goddesses(gods too, obviously :p ) abound.

[Raintreewolf]

LOL...very true...and I have come across the moon god as you had mentioned before as well in egyptian mythologies as well...I think it was Thoth who had at one time been associated with the moon.:-)

I get off track...this is about the difference between Isis and Hathor...
Sorry

[Ishtara]

Within the complex of the temple of Dendera, dedicated to Het-Hert (Hathor), there is a small building known as the Birth Shrine of Aset (Isis). The inscriptions state that Aset is Het-Hert's daughter, yet at the same time, she is older than Her mother (the same statement is found elsewhere about Heru and Wesir, I think).
Some hieroglyphs inside the shrine have been mutilated but from what has been translated so far, scholars see these texts as expressing the unity of the multiple female aspects of Netjer. So in that cosmic sense, Het-Hert and Aset would indeed ultimately be "the same".

However, Dendera is a Ptolemaic temple, so this might have to do with how most Goddesses became equated with Aset in the late periods of the Egyptian religion, eventually fusing into Isis the Great Goddess whose worship extended far beyond Egypt. Maybe the same view would not have been held true during, say, the Middle or New Kingdom.

[Raintreewolf]

Within the complex of the temple of Dendera, dedicated to Het-Hert (Hathor), there is a small building known as the Birth Shrine of Aset (Isis). The inscriptions state that Aset is Het-Hert's daughter, yet at the same time, she is older than Her mother (the same statement is found elsewhere about Heru and Wesir, I think).
Some hieroglyphs inside the shrine have been mutilated but from what has been translated so far, scholars see these texts as expressing the unity of the multiple female aspects of Netjer. So in that cosmic sense, Het-Hert and Aset would indeed ultimately be "the same".

However, Dendera is a Ptolemaic temple, so this might have to do with how most Goddesses became equated with Aset in the late periods of the Egyptian religion, eventually fusing into Isis the Great Goddess whose worship extended far beyond Egypt. Maybe the same view would not have been held true during, say, the Middle or New Kingdom.

Very interesting...so....if Het Hert was Isis' mother and Isis ( Aset ) mother was also Nut...does that make Het hert also Nut or Tefnut is Nut and Tefnut the same? ( Should I satart a new thread for this last question?)

Yes, the more I read the more supports that she indeed was a Sun Goddess but I still get little hints here and there of her association with the moon.

This is very complicated....

I just love Het Hert....she fills me with so much love for the Goddess in this aspect. I'm so glad she made herself knowen to me.

I must do more research on Isis ( Aset)...though I awlays seem to focus on Het Hert, it is so hard to pull away from her allurment.

Anyways...Ishtara...thank you for the wonderful information!


Goddess Bless,
~Rain Tree Wolf

[instinct]

Let us just remember that all the egyptian gods and goddesses are the same one god. Netjer. The One and the Many.

Let's also remember that the stories are just that.. stories. They were written by man. They did not actually happen.

The myths and relationships of the gods and goddesses are there merely so that we might understand Them better.
And in turn, the gods and goddesses are there so that we might understand Netjer better.

It's very complicated. It's very wonderful.

But that is the way of the gods. :)

[Raintreewolf]

thank you....

I do understand completely what you write about all is one...but on a mythic/psychological perspective...I was wondering how this actually broke down.

Though it does not really mater I suppose.

yes, yes it is wonderful and I do love it's complexity, I'm not daunted by it.

Blessings,
Rain Tree Wolf

[instinct]

I think my point was that because the gods don't function like us it's not always a possibility to completely sort it all out in our heads.

It's certainly worth trying though! :lol: