Need help with learning more about Heacte and working with her

[demosioi13]

:hmmmmm: Please I'm trying to learn more about Hecate, I have been working with Her for a while. I know that She is my Patron Goddess, Ihave some info. on Her but need more I will share what I have if enyone is instred. THANK YOU ALL in advance.

[Gyda]

Hecate (http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/greek-mythology.php?deity=HECATE)

from Godchecker

Gyda

[~Elise~]

Just a picky point...female Goddesses are not Patrons...they are Matrons.

Have you tried looking on your own? Googling her name?

Elise

[Sage Rainsong]

Hope that these help:

http://www.hecatescauldron.org (http://www.hecatescauldron.org)

http://www.pacificnet.net/~spectre/Temple/main.html (http://www.pacificnet.net/~spectre/Temple/main.html)

[Darakash]

Just a picky point...female Goddesses are not Patrons...they are Matrons.

Have you tried looking on your own? Googling her name?

Elise

ya know, off topic but I have heard that the term Matron is actually incorrect; because it simply means older married woman, and that saying Patron Goddess is actually correct....I am confused, because I used to always say matron and people started correcting me!

[demosioi13]

Sorry I hit the wrong key and did not proof read my post, I don't spell very well :foopsies:
Her name can also be spelled Hekate.


Just a picky point.....female Goddess are not Patrons....Matrons
Have you tryed looking on your own?

A Goddess or God can be called Patrons it all depends on how you think the word means. Yes I have done a net search on Hecate and got a lot of info and I was trying to learn more, and see if anyone knows info that I do not have and would like to share.
I 'm VERY SORRY IF I UPSET ENYONE> THAT WAS NOT MY INTENT.

[~Elise~]

You didn't upset anyone...esp. me. I've always heard it Matron Goddess and Patron God. And to ME anyway...it always made sense since Matron is female (and isn't a Goddess an older female? LOL) and Patron was male. I've never heard any difference.

Yes, Hekate can be spelled that way, as well. There are also her three selves, who each have their own name, as well.

Care to share what you know already? That way we know what areas to fill in for you. Just a thought.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[demosioi13]

This is what I have found and there is some more I have to add to it, let me know about eny misstakes or if I don't have someting. _vb_

[Chesna]

I also thought that one of Hecate's days was Sahmain??
But I could be wrong!!
Great workup!! I wish Iknew as much about my goddess.

Chesna

[demosioi13]

I forgot to put that on the work-up thanks :hugz:

[~Elise~]

I wish my student's reports were as thorough as this is...but if you don't mind posting for my own edification, what are your sources on the following:

The animals associated with Her, including dragons.
the talismans & symbols
the worship of Her and henna staining

As I said...very nicely done.

Elise

[Darakash]

This is what I have found and there is some more I have to add to it, let me know about eny misstakes or if I don't have someting. _vb_

That seems very thorough in terms of research! The following comments are based only on experience with her and anecdotal things from my hubber who is a child of Hecate....

She also seems to like owls and spiders (to add to your list of animals)
Her most frequent offering "request" is a raw egg that has been used to absorb negative energy and then placed/cracked in a bowl (or whatever) at a crossroads....
She lets me know she is present through goosebumps, no matter how warm it is, and is generally cold (literally--not as in not loving)...
She doesn't seem to leave much once she has chosen you...like, she is not necessarily in your face, but is a constant presence in her children's life.
She is very patient with her children, but not so much with ones who wrong or are upsetting her children, in fact, about that she can be downright scary!

If I think of more I will posts more...enjoy your relationship with her. She is one of my favorite goddesses.

[~Elise~]

That seems very thorough in terms of research! The following comments are based only on experience with her and anecdotal things from my hubber who is a child of Hecate....

She also seems to like owls and spiders (to add to your list of animals)
Her most frequent offering "request" is a raw egg that has been used to absorb negative energy and then placed/cracked in a bowl (or whatever) at a crossroads....
She lets me know she is present through goosebumps, no matter how warm it is, and is generally cold (literally--not as in not loving)...
She doesn't seem to leave much once she has chosen you...like, she is not necessarily in your face, but is a constant presence in her children's life.
She is very patient with her children, but not so much with ones who wrong or are upsetting her children, in fact, about that she can be downright scary!

If I think of more I will posts more...enjoy your relationship with her. She is one of my favorite goddesses.

Thankfully--she keeps spiders away from me for the most part.

I had forgotten about that raw egg sacrafice...I will do that

Her and Morrigan both are very protective of their chosen ones. It is a very nice thing at time.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[Darakash]

Thankfully--she keeps spiders away from me for the most part.

I had forgotten about that raw egg sacrafice...I will do that

Her and Morrigan both are very protective of their chosen ones. It is a very nice thing at time.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

Hee hee on the spiders, my hubber not so lucky there! LOL.....
I have heard many things of this nature about Morrigan, and I will have to explore info about her a bit more...for some reason, which is odd, I am a little afraid of her! Stupid, cuz well my Matron (Elise, I still cant decide which to use, LOL patron goddess or matron; but matron feels right, so WTH!) is Sekhmet and I have a very close, sort of "neice" type relationship with Hecate, neither of which are exactly fluffy-sweet....so I am not sure why the Morrigan makes me nervous! Anyway, yes, definitely has been nice for my hub especially and for me as well, that she is so protective!

[DandelionDame]

Ooooh! One of my favorite subjects! :) I wish Theres was still around here - he was a real wealth of information.

The Theoi Project is my favorite web site for information on Hekate (I believe Hekate is the Greek spelling and Hecate is Roman - someone please correct me if that's wrong!). They take their information from mythology and generally older writings about her. Here's a link:
http://66.90.77.92/Ouranos/Hekate.html (http://66.90.77.92/Ouranos/Hekate.html)

I dedicated to her last December, after a relatively brief (about 2 months) but very active period of time drawing me to her. I'd never gotten the amount of signs from deity that I got from her, which was surprising, as I hadn't looked to her as a potential connection for me.

An animal to add to your list (which is wonderful, by the way! Very extensive!) is the weasel. Theoi has a bit about how she's connected with the weasel, and seeing a weasel (I live in the country, but hadn't seen a weasel out and about before and haven't seen one since!) in real life was what finally made me realize I wasn't imagining this "attention"!

She is really, really wonderful.

[Nantonos]

The Theoi Project is my favorite web site for information on Hekate (I believe Hekate is the Greek spelling and Hecate is Roman - someone please correct me if that's wrong!)

Yes. Έκατα or Έκατη is the Greek spelling. Hekate is the transliteration of the Greek into the Latin alphabet. Hecate is the Roman spelling.

[Nantonos]

A feast of Hecate in the Religio Romana is 31 January (Prid Kal Feb)
Leave meal, honey, and milk on pottery shards for Hecate at crossroads. “Nocturnal Hecate, who is called at the crossroads throughout the City, and Avenging Dirae, and Elissa’s gods of the dying, hear our prayers, heed them, and direct your awful powers against those who deserve it” (Virgil Aeneis IV.609).
http://www.religioromana.net/calendar/calendar-january.htm (http://www.religioromana.net/calendar/calendar-january.htm)

Samhain is an early mediaeval, Irish Celtic festival and unlikely to be linked to Hecate historically. If you wanted to fit Hecate into the modern neopagan 8-fold wheel, Imbolc would therefore be a much closer festival.

Besides the meal (spelt flour), honey and milk, suitable offerings might be garlic, hemlock, mandrake, and rue.
http://www.religioromana.net/onsacrifices.htm (http://www.religioromana.net/onsacrifices.htm)

[DandelionDame]

Yes. Έκατα or Έκατη is the Greek spelling. Hekate is the transliteration of the Greek into the Latin alphabet. Hecate is the Roman spelling.

I was hoping you'd see this thread, Nantonos! Your posts are always so educational. You're right, I should have specified that that was the transliteration; have not learned Greek proper. :)

[Nantonos]

I was hoping you'd see this thread, Nantonos! Your posts are always so educational. You're right, I should have specified that that was the transliteration; have not learned Greek proper. :)

The reason I pointed it out is that knowing its a modern transliteration explains why its spelled differently. Its not like the Romans said "oh yes, we will adopt this goddess but sorry, the the k has to go" :T

[MerryBe]

You didn't upset anyone...esp. me. I've always heard it Matron Goddess and Patron God. And to ME anyway...it always made sense since Matron is female (and isn't a Goddess an older female? LOL) and Patron was male. I've never heard any difference.

Yes, Hekate can be spelled that way, as well. There are also her three selves, who each have their own name, as well.

Care to share what you know already? That way we know what areas to fill in for you. Just a thought.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

MM,

Hope you don't mind I throw my 2 cents worth in here, but Matron and Patron often get confused.

As someone else said, Matron means a married woman, nothing else. Patron is one who is a guardian or protector.
Matron didnt come from Medieval times, but Patron is actually from Medieval times and from the worn Patronus.

Another thing one might want to think about is that Hecate, wouldn't be considered a Matron as she was not married.

As far as Goddess, a Goddess is the female of the male God version, neither have to do with a persons age.
So Goddess doesn't mean an older woman.
Perhaps you were thinking of Crone?

In closing, the Goddess Hecate can be called a Patron.

I know its confusing but truthfully Matron and Patron are not opposites in meaning. They also came from two different languages.

BB,
Merry

[Aidron]

For starters, referring to her as a matron would be linguistically incorrect. Anyone is welcome to do it and I certainly won't tell them they cannot, but a patron is one who sponsors you, who protects, guides and looks after you.

Have any of you read "Great Expectations"? It's been some years since I have, but the older woman who sponsored the young artist would have been his patron. Her financial role was accentuated more, but the underlying connotations remain the same, divine or mortal.

As for Hecate, it can be spelled as Hekate or Hecate. What one must realize is the Greeks pronounced their 'c' as a hard 'c'. Think of the word 'cake'. Both the 'c' and the 'k' sound identical. They did not have a soft 'c' like in 'nice', that would translate into 's' in modern language. Aphrodite for example has strong ties to the island of Cypros, but it would have been pronounced Kypros. The Elder Futhark runes also have this very same issue within them. While pronouncing runes is really nothing more than an educated guess, Kaunos is often used in place of a hard 'c' or a 'k'. Sowelu often takes the place of a soft 'c' or an 's'.

Secondly, Hecate is not nor has she ever been a crone. She is not a triple goddess either. She did have three heads in many representations, but she was reflected in most stories as a maiden. One, who much like Athena and Artemis was unmarried and essentially a feminine influence independant of males a great deal.

She's also a chthonic deity, thus she obviously has strong ties to both the earth and particularly the underworld. I do not speak of the elements in this manner referencing earth, but rather that deities in many cultures were or can be seperated by the realms they exist within or influence. Zeus and Athena would be more closedly related to the sky and the world above us mortals, Hecate more with the the world below us and around us.

Zeus supposedly has great respect for Hecate, giving her a fair share of power and divine rights when he became the King of Olympos. She is said to rule three-way crosswords, and along with Hermes to shephard the souls of the dead to the underworld.

There's a lot of information on her, most of it is simply.... incorrect or an attempt to force her into a modern mold that she was never meant to take part in (like a triple goddess or some stereotypical crone who brews potions in a giant cauldron as the goddess of witchcraft).

[Nantonos]

As someone else said, Matron means a married woman, nothing else. Patron is one who is a guardian or protector.
Matron didnt come from Medieval times, but Patron is actually from Medieval times and from the worn Patronus.
I was going to let the Patron/Matron thing slip by, not wanting to derail the tread, but since it is being discussed anyway ...
Patron, which persists in the English language in such forms as patronage and patron saint (both of which are applied to both male and female patrons), dates earlier than the mediaeval period.

In ancient Rome, a client was someone, usually a freed slave, who was attached to a rich patron benefactor; this was necessary for many who were not legally able to secure citizenship, a right initially reserved for the patrician class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client)
From this developed the idea of a patron in a more general sense, including a deity or a saint as a patron.
The idea of a "Patron and Matron" is much more recent, and has developed from Wiccan duotheistic practice.

In closing, the Goddess Hecate can be called a Patron.Yes.

[Nantonos]

There are also her three selves, who each have their own name, as well.

What are those names, and what are our sources for them?

[Incendia]

The following thread about hekate/hecate is very helpful:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57007&page=1&pp=10 (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57007&page=1&pp=10)

[MerryBe]

I was going to let the Patron/Matron thing slip by, not wanting to derail the tread, but since it is being discussed anyway ...
Patron, which persists in the English language in such forms as patronage and patron saint (both of which are applied to both male and female patrons), dates earlier than the mediaeval period.

From this developed the idea of a patron in a more general sense, including a deity or a saint as a patron.
The idea of a "Patron and Matron" is much more recent, and has developed from Wiccan duotheistic practice.
Yes.

MM,
Yes, you are right, sorry if I didn't explain myself well.
I didn't mean to say that the word Patron came from Medieval times, as I did refer to the word Patron as coming from the Roman word Patronus.
I just meant that it was also used during that period of Medieval times.

You are correct that the Romans used the word Patron for Patron Saints and those who protected.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused you, as I agree with what you have said.

BB,
Merry

[Theres]

:vanish:

[Nantonos]

Yes, you are right, sorry if I didn't explain myself well.
I didn't mean to say that the word Patron came from Medieval times, as I did refer to the word Patron as coming from the Roman word Patronus.
I just meant that it was also used during that period of Medieval times.
No problem, I was just clarifying (since Latin was used in ancent, mediaeval, and indeed modern times) how old the term was.

[Theres]

btw demosioi13, i like your name. i hope you didn't have to cut off anything significant to earn it... ;)

[demosioi13]

Theres thanks and no I did not have to :bigblue:
Everyone has been very helpfull and I will post tomorrow where my sorces are for the ones I was asked about.
Sorry I have not been on in a coppple of days I've been :sleepybed and just now been felling better. :hearthear to everyone
Blessed Be.

[Bix]

Just curious...and I hope I don't steal your thread. But, I know Hecate has been known as a goddess of witchcraft. Well, what type of witchcraft? I know ancient Greeks usually didn't really care much for sorcery and witchcraft and the like.

[demosioi13]

The Dragons pull Her chariot, from servile acounts
Her symbols I found when doing web-surfing
and the Henna thing is from the old texts about the Greeks

I hope that helps try the links posted by the others that should help more :bigblue:

Just im or e-mail me if I'm not sined in :sunny: if enyone wants to and I'll replay asap. :broomride

[Hellenic_Witch]

I would like to know more about the henna and Greek texts, I've never heard this before.

[Nantonos]

I would like to know more about the henna and Greek texts, I've never heard this before.

A quick google on "hecate henna" reveals a bunch of pages mentioning this in passing, typically without any source. However, i did find one that cited a source.


Her symbols were a key and the cauldron. The women who worshipped her stained their palms and soles with henna. Her festivals were held at night by torchlight...
(from Magick of the Gods and Goddesses by DJ Conway)
http://www.pinn.net/~swampy/hecate2.html (http://www.pinn.net/~swampy/hecate2.html)


If D.J. Conway is the source, this explains
* why you see it everywhere
* why its probably wrong and totally made up

[Hellenic_Witch]

If D.J. Conway is the source, this explains
* why you see it everywhere
* why its probably wrong and totally made up
Agreed.

[Theres]

Just curious...and I hope I don't steal your thread. But, I know Hecate has been known as a goddess of witchcraft. Well, what type of witchcraft? I know ancient Greeks usually didn't really care much for sorcery and witchcraft and the like.
i don't have time to go to deep into it right now (unfortunately), but i'd suggest Googling 'the Thessallian Witches'.
the women of Thessaly were saddled with this reputation for centuries, but the original witches of that area were considered very powerful, and in fact it is with them that you will find the origin of the ritual known as "drawing down the moon".

good luck.

[Bix]

i don't have time to go to deep into it right now (unfortunately), but i'd suggest Googling 'the Thessallian Witches'.
the women of Thessaly were saddled with this reputation for centuries, but the original witches of that area were considered very powerful, and in fact it is with them that you will find the origin of the ritual known as "drawing down the moon".

good luck.
Thank you for the info!

[DixieWitch]

more on her symbols:

Later, studies show Hecate with three heads and six arms, or merely as a pillar called a Hecterion. Hecate was shown holding three torches, a key, a rope, and a dagger. With the key, she unlocks the deep mysteries, the rope is a symbolical umbilical cord, the dagger, which has become the athame of Witchcraft, cuts through illusion to true power. But Hecate was also known as the most lovely one, a name for the Moon. It was said that She wore a shimmering headdress and was second to none in her powers. A statute from the 8th century BCE shows Hecate with wings and holding a snake.
from http://www.hecatescauldron.org/ (http://www.hecatescauldron.org/)

a little more:

Hecate is the Dark Mother, in both the positive and the negative sense. She can send demons to torment men's dreams, she can drive them mad, if they are not well integrated enough to cope with her, but to those who dare to welcome her, she brings creative inspiration. She is Hecate Antea, the Sender of nocturnal visions.

When one learns from Hecate with patience and love, one learns that She is not an ugly hag, but a beautiful Goddess. One must be willing to "sacrifice" oneself on the inner altar in order to gain Her good will. This type of sacrifice does not literally mean immolation or austerity of unnatural kinds, This is a spiritual sacrifice, willingness to give up negative habits and friends, taking time for meditation and ritual, being kind and understanding to your fellow person, and open to new ways of spiritual thought and understanding. The only thing we have of value to offer the Dark Mother is the life force of our being. When we can offer ourselves without reservation, the Crone gives in return far more than we can imagine. Like Loki, we lose nothing, what we gain, is up to our intentions. I got both of these quotes from Understand Hecate and her History
I have most of this website printed out and in my BOS. But it's been a very long time since I've worked with Hekate and since I've read these passages. I think I have an answer to my problems now
This is a spiritual sacrifice, willingness to give up negative habits and friends, taking time for meditation and ritual, being kind and understanding to your fellow person, and open to new ways of spiritual thought and understanding. I haven't been doing that!!!

[fangedeshana]

I was looking through some of the sites just now as last night I think the woman that interupted my dream was Hecate and found this....


Hecate enforces feminine independence from masculine influences and this deals in all things including the religion known as Wicca. Wicca is heavily influenced by the male God. The Sabbats are centered around the male God. The word Wicca is a male term....a term connected to the Goddess religion.

O_o. I don't agree at all... but anyone else have an opinion on this?

[Nantonos]

I notice a certain amount of talking at cross purposes in this thread. It might be useful to examine the historical evolution of deities, the concept of a triple goddess, both in history and in modern theology; and to look into 'correct' as a term.

Firstly, deities are not static throughout history. They changed, for example by being adopted by other civilizations: as for example Aset/Isis changed when Egypt became Hellenized, the Graeco-Roman Isis described in Apuleius is very different from the original Egyptian deity, but both are historical and 'correct' in different time periods and different geographical locations. They may take on aspects of other deities, as dfor example the Latin agricultural deity Mars took on aspects of the Greek Ares to become the Roman god Mars.They may be partnered with other deities to give them a new cultural context, as Apollo was partnered wiith Sirona and Mercury with Rosmerta in the Gallo-Roman religion.

Secondly, there certainly were triple goddesses at various points in history. The Greek Hecate is a well known example, as are the Norns, Brigid, the south Gaulish Matres, the rhineland Matrones, and so forth. Usually these were triples of Mothers. In fact I am not aware of a MMC triple Goddess in history.

Thirdly, the Maid-Mother-Crone triplicity which is such a central part of Wiccan theology is modern; Wicca itself dates from the 1940s, and the MMC concept is derived from the personal beliefs of Robert Graves concerning a (female) muse of (male) poets. Graves was a poet, not a scholar; and in fact was reacting against scholarship (his grandfather was an eminent Celtic scholar).

This quote is instructive, drawn from a page about Graves and the triple Goddess (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/whitegoddess.html)


The book is also sexist. It essentially says that women cannot be poets, since poetry is entirely about the worship/love for the White Goddess (and, of course, Graves didn't consider lesbians). Instead, women are to be muses, inspiring male poets, while incapable of actual creation themselves. Well, except for creating children for these men. For all the "Goddess worship" and supposed female empowerment that is seen in this book, the readers are obviously missing what is Graves' core message--that poetry is really about man's desire for women. Reductive? Absolutely. But that's Graves' message. Better yet, the White Goddess is no loving figure, but a "La Belle Dame Sans Merci" who takes the lives of her poets. Women, as muses, are then also these destructive creatures.

Ironicly, Wiccan theology was one of the main influences on feminist theology, and uses this material in an entirely different way. Some of the Hecate quotes one finds on Web pages are drawn from a late 20th century radical feminist reimagining of Hecate. Which is fine, and can be perfectly good theology - but is very different to the original Greek, then Roman, then mediaeval-classical, versions of Hecate.

The reductionist arguments of Graves, discarding things that don't fit, was influential in Wicca, which reduces world mythology down to duotheism - a triple lunar maid/mother/crone and a seasonal dying and resurrected sun god. Which is fine, as a theological system, but is not the same as other, more ancient theologies and certainly leaves out a lot of other themes from other systems.

So, what is 'correct'? Correct needs to be qualified - correct to a particular time period and culture. This might be the 21sc century CE or the 6th century BCE. Your choice - but beware of assuming that they are the same, or back-projecting modern systems onto ancient deities.

I do recommend reading this article for further information
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/whitegoddess.html (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/whitegoddess.html)
and this one about specifically Celtic triple goddesses
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/triplegoddess.html (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/triplegoddess.html)

[~Elise~]

These are the three names of Hekate, as I learned them:

Propylaia
Propolos
Phosphoros

Here is a site that give some of the info and one of my sources. In fact, the only one I really have time to post.

http://inanna.virtualave.net/hekate.html (http://inanna.virtualave.net/hekate.html)

Elise

[Theres]

O_o. I don't agree at all... but anyone else have an opinion on this?
yes, and i don't agree either.firstly, Wicca is NOT a "Goddess religion". secondly, the sabbats are solar (re: 'male' - 8) oriented, but the esbats are lunar ('female' - 13+), so what's her point?
personally i find this to be one of the less informative Hekate sites i have found.

and pearls, try Goggling Enodia, Kourotrophos, Apotropaios, Brimo, Triodite, and Trivia. there are more, but that should keep you busy for awhile! ;)

[Hekateseunach]

The best treatment on Hekate I have read is in vol 2 or maybe 3 of Lewis Farnell's Cults of the Greek States he's quite informative on the whole Triune goddess thing

[eihdos]

These are the three names of Hekate, as I learned them:
Propylaia
Propolos
Phosphoros



Heh. I just started working on a list of Hekate's epithets, with descriptions. Right now I'm sort of wishing there were only three. ;)

The longest one I've encountered so far is Khrusosandalaimopotikhthonia, gold-sandalled-blood-drinking-queen-of-the-underworld, used on an ancient curse tablet. Quite a mouthful, eh?


http://www.hekate.nu (http://www.hekate.nu) - The Hekate FAQ

[eihdos]

*A feast of Hecate in the Religio Romana is 31 January


I know shamefully little about the Roman Hecate. Would this be an annual feast, or the equivalent of the deipna hekates (Hekate's suppers) people in Greece would leave at the crossroads on the last day of the month?

[Nantonos]

*A feast of Hecate in the Religio Romana is 31 January


I know shamefully little about the Roman Hecate. Would this be an annual feast, or the equivalent of the deipna hekates (Hekate's suppers) people in Greece would leave at the crossroads on the last day of the month?

That one was annual.

Have a look at http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/deities.php (http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/deities.php)

[eihdos]

That one was annual.


Thank you! You wouldn't happen to have a source for that, besides what is quoted on the page?

[Nantonos]

Also in Ovids Fasti, a speech attributed to Janus:

Every doorway has two sides, this way and that,
One facing the crowds, and the other the Lares:
And like your doorkeeper seated at the threshold,
Who watches who goes and out and who goes in,
So I the doorkeeper of the heavenly court,
Look towards both east and west at once.
You see Hecate’s faces turned in three directions,
To guard the crossroads branching several ways:
And I, lest I lose time twisting my neck around,
Am free to look both ways without moving.’

[Nantonos]

Thank you! You wouldn't happen to have a source for that, besides what is quoted on the page?

That's why I was looking in Ovids Fasti (a work on the Roman calendar), Chapter 1 (January). But that doesn't seem to be the source of the precise date.

reads his own earlier post

The source is supposed to be Virgil, Aeneis IV.609
but while that gives interesting ritual details
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joelja/aeneid.html#b4 (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joelja/aeneid.html#b4)
no calendrical ones.

[eihdos]

The best treatment on Hekate I have read is in vol 2 or maybe 3 of Lewis Farnell's Cults of the Greek States he's quite informative on the whole Triune goddess thing


When I realized that the essay was in the public domain I typed the whole thing up and posted it to another forum, along with some other older writings. Look under "secondary sources", in the second paragraph.

http://www.hekate.nu/default.cfm?page=sources (http://www.hekate.nu/default.cfm?page=sources)

[eihdos]

That's why I was looking in Ovids Fasti (a work on the Roman calendar), Chapter 1 (January). But that doesn't seem to be the source of the precise date.


Could you recommend any good secondary sources? I want to learn more about Hecate, but I would like to start with a general overview of the cults and religions of Rome.

[Nantonos]

And now (the sacred altars plac'd around)
The priestess enters, with her hair unbound,
And thrice invokes the pow'rs below the ground.
Night, Erebus, and Chaos she proclaims,
And threefold Hecate, with her hundred names,
And three Dianas: next, she sprinkles round
With feign'd Avernian drops the hallow'd ground;
Culls hoary simples, found by Phoebe's light,
With brazen sickles reap'd at noon of night;
Then mixes baleful juices in the bowl,
And cuts the forehead of a newborn foal,
Robbing the mother's love. The destin'd queen
Observes, assisting at the rites obscene;
A leaven'd cake in her devoted hands
She holds, and next the highest altar stands:
One tender foot was shod, her other bare;
Girt was her gather'd gown, and loose her hair.
Thus dress'd, she summon'd, with her dying breath,
The heav'ns and planets conscious of her death,
And ev'ry pow'r, if any rules above,
Who minds, or who revenges, injur'd love.
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joelja/aeneid.html#b4 (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joelja/aeneid.html#b4)

[eihdos]

Just curious...and I hope I don't steal your thread. But, I know Hecate has been known as a goddess of witchcraft. Well, what type of witchcraft?


She was often invoked in curse tablets (katadesmoi, or defixiones), for various purposes, most of them fairly mundane - winning court cases and finding love. Medea, from Euripides play with the same name, and various other sources, was a priestess of Hekate, and accomplished herbalist. Hekate also appears frequently in the Papyri Graecae Magica, a collection of spells and magical instructions, and in the Chaldean Oracles. (I personally wouldn't call theurgy witchcraft, but you might find it interesting anyway.)

[Nantonos]

Forget what I said earlier about a yearly festival (since the source for the 31 Jan seems elusive).

“It was the first of the month when this befell, and the gracious Hekata, the maid of the ruddy feet, was thereby sending us a message that was longing for fulfilment [Offerings were made to Hekate on the morning of the new moon].” –Pindar Paean 2
http://www.theoi.com/Ouranos/Hekate.html (http://www.theoi.com/Ouranos/Hekate.html)

[DixieWitch]

Hecate's Days according to http://zer0dmx.tripod.com/gods/hecate.html (http://zer0dmx.tripod.com/gods/hecate.html)

Feast and Festival Days: January 8, May 3, August 13, October 31, November 16, December 31.

I knew about Samhain, but I thought the August date was actually the last day of August. I remember reading once that Her days are the last day of each month. But don't quote me on that. Anyone wanna fill us on Her days?

[Nantonos]

Hecate's Days according to http://zer0dmx.tripod.com/gods/hecate.html (http://zer0dmx.tripod.com/gods/hecate.html)

Feast and Festival Days: January 8, May 3, August 13, October 31, November 16, December 31.
Yes, but what are the sources for that?


I remember reading once that Her days are the last day of each month. But don't quote me on that.

Perhaps you read it in the post just before yours :T

[Nantonos]

Could you recommend any good secondary sources? I want to learn more about Hecate, but I would like to start with a general overview of the cults and religions of Rome.

Sorry, I was leaping in with primary sources because that is what I thought you were asking for. In secondary sources, The Gods of Ancient Rome by Robert Turcan, translated by Antonia Nevill is a good introduction. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415929741 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415929741)
Dictionary of Roman Religion by Lesley Adkins, Roy A. Adkins is a good companion to Turcan. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195142330 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195142330)

You might also find that Magic, Witchcraft and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds - a sourcebook by Daniel Ogden is helpful for this specific topic. In the index, Hecate is on pp. 66-9, 71, 88-92, 97, 148, 155, 161, 191, 209, 238, 244, 270 and 275.. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195151232 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195151232)

Avoid Magic in the Roman World by Naomi Janowitz - despite being subtitled 'Pagans, Jews and Christians' it is primarily about Jewish and Christian magic - it has little on Paganism and nothing on Hecate.

Online, Societas Via Romana http://www.societasviaromana.org/ (http://www.societasviaromana.org/)
(they also have a forum, http://www.societasviaromana.org/phpBB2/ (http://www.societasviaromana.org/phpBB2/) )
and Nova Roma http://www.novaroma.org/ (http://www.novaroma.org/) specifically http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/ (http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/have) have useful materials.

[DixieWitch]

Yes, but what are the sources for that?



Perhaps you read it in the post just before yours :T

LOL no I didn't read it there!! It was in my studies about a year ago.
The sources, other than the website posted, I dunno. Still looking.

[eihdos]

Oh, I appreciate the primary sources - it's just that I need to read secondary sources too, in order to get a context for the primary sources, so to speak. I have Ogden's and the Atkins's books already, but not Turcan's. I'll give that one a try. Thanks!

[eihdos]

The information on that page should be taken cum grano salis, in my never very humble opinion.

The ancient Greek calendars do not correspond to our calendar. For instance, we can say that Hekate was honored at the Greater Eleusinian Mysteries, celebrated between the 14th and the 23rd Boedromion. Unless we're talking about the Mysteries held on a certain year, what we're really saying is that the Mysteries took place some time in October or November. It's less of a problem if we're talking Roman festivals, though.

I'll try do dig up the primary sources for the last day of the month being sacred to Hekate.

[eihdos]

All I was able to find was the quote from Porphyry's "de Abstinentia", which you're already familiar with if you read K.F. Smith's essay.

"...kata mena hekaston tais noumeniais...." meaning "at the new moon" or "on the eve of the new moon"

Other sources that mention Hekate's suppers, but don't say anything about when these offerings were left are;

"...and that these men used to devour the food set out for Hecate..."

Demosthenes tell this to show that Conon has no respect for what's sacred, "Against Conon"

"Ask Hecate whether it is better to be rich or starving; she will tell you that the rich send her a meal every month and that the poor make it disappear before it is even served."

Chremylus speaking to Poverty in Aristophanes' "Plutus", referring to the fact that the offerings left for Hekate and the dead were sometimes eaten by the poor.

[Incendia]

The information on that page should be taken cum grano salis, in my never very humble opinion.

The ancient Greek calendars do not correspond to our calendar. For instance, we can say that Hekate was honored at the Greater Eleusinian Mysteries, celebrated between the 14th and the 23rd Boedromion. Unless we're talking about the Mysteries held on a certain year, what we're really saying is that the Mysteries took place some time in October or November. It's less of a problem if we're talking Roman festivals, though.

Agreed. I try to honor her on the night of every new moon; I make the rituals extra special on the moons that fall around her "holidays". Even with that, there is some dispute as to whether or not the Greeks honored her on the eve of the new moon or the night of.

[magickman12]

You must be careful with the Old One, for her morals predate those that our society has set up for itself. She once asked me for a black dog, just as her worshippers offered her thousands of years ago. As a former member of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, I could not even consider doing such a thing. That event has been nagging at me for quite a while now. I have always felt a kinship with her, but I refuse to go against my morals, even to honor a deity. I see simularities with the story of Abraham and his son, so maybe it is a test of some kind. Who knows? I live by my own high standards and I will stand by them, even before an angry goddess.
MM12

[eihdos]

Even with that, there is some dispute as to whether or not the Greeks honored her on the eve of the new moon or the night of.


And then you have to take into account that the day started at sunset, to make things even more confusing. Most people I've spoken to leave offerings just before the new moon, for aesthetic or magical reasons. Even the most hardcore reconstructionist can recostruct everything down to the last detail. ;)

[eihdos]

Heh. That's a classic. I don't know of anyone who would have given her that dog. Personally I don't see a huge problem with animal sacrifice provided that it's a) done in a way that doesn't make that animal suffer needlessly, and b) that the meat is eaten, as was usually the case in ancient Greece. And yeah, I agree that morals were quite different then. Plenty of the things the Greeks did would be considered unethical or illegal today.

Anyone know where to find a pharmakos, by the way? ;)

[teishabee]

Ive been doing some reading into hecate and the crone and cauldron aspect confuses me.

I know her as a mother but where did the crone part come into her role.

[eihdos]

Fairly late. The Greeks certainly did not see her as a crone, nor did the Romans for the most part. Maybe we can blame Shakespeare? ;)

[Theres]

Ive been doing some reading into hecate and the crone and cauldron aspect confuses me.

I know her as a mother but where did the crone part come into her role.
it doesn't, nor does the maiden or mother roles either. Hekate was a triple goddess unto herself, as ruler of Earth, Sea and Sky. yes the Greeks always depicted Her as a maiden, but that wasn't 'Maiden'.

the whole MMC thing is a modern recategorization if you will of the ancient goddesses. this was a popular theory at the beginning of the last century, with historians such as Sir Arthur Evans and Rene Dussaud (and later Robert Graves) being big proponents of this idea.
but Martin Nilsson (writing in 1925 about Minoan goddesses specifically, but the idea still holds) wrote this...

"There is a tendency to explain these figures along one particular line. Evans finds everywhere the great Nature-goddess with her paramour; Dussaud the chthonic goddess, Earth the Mother. It is tempting thus to reduce the explanation of the figures to a single formula, but in the simplification there is a risk of doing violence to the evidence. For it is very possible that the Minoans had a multitude of gods -- indeed, this is likely, to judge by other peoples with a similar or somewhat less developed culture. It is necessary therefore to keep the types of divinity separate."

i couldn't agree more.
so while there actually were a few (very few) ancient goddesses to whom this triple designation may apply, they are nowhere near the number that these proponents would have you believe. in the face of this evidence i choose NOT to retroactively reclassify these deities for the sake of modern convenience... that just seems extremely disrespectful to me.

[Theres]

I remember reading once that Her days are the last day of each month. But don't quote me on that.
ahh, but you must remember that the Greeks recorded the months from moon to moon, so the last day of the month would actually be the New Moon (or the eve of). in other words the month was a lunar event and not just a calendar point.

[Theres]

Heh. I just started working on a list of Hekate's epithets, with descriptions. Right now I'm sort of wishing there were only three. ;)

The longest one I've encountered so far is Khrusosandalaimopotikhthonia, gold-sandalled-blood-drinking-queen-of-the-underworld, used on an ancient curse tablet. Quite a mouthful, eh?
LOL!
wow, that's great! one has to wonder what was on the petitioners mind at the time. :lol:

[eihdos]

I completely forgot to post this, but I imagine that some people might find it useful. It's a reconstructed Athenian calendar. It doesn't list Hekate's suppers, but a lot of interesting stuff.

Any Mac users around? I'm working on an iCal version.

http://www.numachi.com/~ccount/hmepa/ (http://www.numachi.com/~ccount/hmepa/)