Deer in Celtic Lore

[DandelionDame]

Dia Duit!
This is my first post here in the Druid forum, though I've been reading it with great interest for quite some time. So I thought I'd attempt to make a splash with an Irish Gaelic greeting, which I hope I didn't botch too badly. :)

Anyhoo, I'll try to keep this concise. I've been reading and learning about witchy stuff, and Celtic subjects (Irish in particular) off and on for pretty much most of my life, but actually practicing in various forms only the past few years. My focus and attentions have been bounced around wildly, especially within the past year, mostly due to dreams and signs that would not be ignored, but have wanted to focus on Ireland. My brain and someone out there had different plans for me, though, which as been both frustrating and intensely educational! As of late, though, I'm feeling like my time to attune with the Irish deities and spirits and way of life (as much as I can do, seeing as I live in New England, U.S.A.) might finally be coming. Trying not to get my hopes up too much again, but things are clicking here and there.

Now to the deer question! My spirituality, especially my lifelong connection to Ireland in various forms, has been at the forefront of my mind the past few days in particular. Yesterday morning, as I went to shut the drapes to keep the blasted sunny heat out of my kitchen, I was stopped dead in my tracks by the sight of a big, beautiful doe eating plants and leaves in my backyard! I stared at her, grinning like a madwoman, and she looked around, then stared right at me for a few seconds. When she resumed eating, I forced myself to resume getting ready for work and a while later, took my dog out, as I kept looking to see if she was still there, but didn't see her. So I'm outside with the dog and look around - and she's still in the woods behind our house! But she's hiding in the plants and trees, with only her big ol' ears and gorgeous eyes sticking up, staring. So I'm euphoric! Then force myself to leave for work, and when I'm about 3 or 4 miles away from home, on a dirt road, another deer crosses my path! I live in the country, but do not see deer as often as you might think.

This felt/feels like a "message" somehow, and maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I can't shake the feeling that Deer is related to my long and winding path pursuing an Irish spirituality. I've read a little bit about deer in Celtic lore, but can't find anything really in-depth in the searching I've done. Would you brilliant Druids help a gal out?

I really meant for this post to be about half the length of this! Just wanted to shed some light on my circumstances, in case it helps. Thank you!

[Phi]

I too had the visitation of a doe in beginning the study of Druidry which meant a lot to me. I was singing (as I often do) while walking a meadow near a wood. She and her fawn jumped out of the bushes and ran, but hearing my singing, she was curious and stopped, staring at me peacefully as I finished my song.

You will probably get more answers regarding the lore from others. But I wanted you first to know that I also saw the doe (and the euphoria she brought to me)as a sign for me. :)

The white doe or white stag was a messenger from the Otherworld, and following such an animal would lead sometimes to contact with spirit-beings in some of the mythology.

Cerrunos is a god who is often depicted with stag antlers, so who knows if such a one might appear as a doe for a woman?? Anyone?

My doe was not white, but she still led me well.

[DandelionDame]

Phi, thank you so much for sharing your experience. Reading your post, I got all misty-eyed - what a beautiful thing to have happen!

[blackroseivy]

My parents' is right in the heart of the North Penn. mountains; we have a contingent of deer that regularly stays on the property because they know it's safe - we ban hunting. So, they get to know us & trot around with their tails down when we are talking to them. Sometimes the mothers come along to show off their fawns to us! :D

One time, I was walking in the road near the house. A young doe was crossing the road ahead of me; she almost ran, but then I did something REAL different: I have been a dancer, & there is something called a "stag leap". I started doing this straight towards her - she stopped & stared, & didn't run at all until a car finally passed us! I got quite close! I was having a big visitation from Cernunnos at the time, btw!! :D

[DandelionDame]

Stag-leaping at a doe! That is great! Hmmm... Flidais was the 1st Irish goddess I got sort of obsessed with about 1 - 1.5 years ago, but nothing really developed out of that. Maybe the doe was her way of saying hi? Somehow I don't think the doe was from Flidais, though.

I am so bad at this.

[Ladyvi]

well.. in native american shamanic terms.. i would guess that the deer needed you to learn something or is your totem and is helping you realize. rather it is there to teach you or stick around a while and lend you power.. or both. here is an excerpt of the totem.

Deer: gentleness, caring and kindness

Deer blend very well with their environment but are very sensitive to every sound or movement. Often twins, even triplets, are born in the spring. Does and bucks live in separate groups until the mating season. The white-tailed deer are moderately gregarious, and family members forage food together along with other family groups, giving the appearance of a large herd. People with Deer Medicine are often described as being swift and alert. They are intuitive, often appearing to have well developed, even extrasensory perceptions. Sometimes their thoughts seem to race ahead, and they appear not to be listening. Deer's medicine includes gentleness in word, thought and touch, ability to listen, grace and appreciation for the beauty of balance, understanding of what's necessary for survival, power of gratitude and giving, ability to sacrifice for the higher good, connection to the woodland spirits, alternative paths to a goal. The gentleness of Deer is the heart-space of the Great Spirit which embodies His love for us all. Deer teaches us to find the gentleness of spirit that heals all wounds, to stop pushing to get others to change and to love and accept them as they are. The only true balance to power is love and compassion.

as far as druid since.. look around your community. is it hotter than normal. is it dryer.. is there some conflict where they normall reside. they could be looking for refuge and sence your place as safe. or your area. is the land 'unsteady' or 'disturbed' .. animals can tell a lot of things. before they happen or the tellers of something going on that could be over looked.

it also could be that.. its time for you to learn from them.

[blackroseivy]

I'll be sure to watch the deer at my parents' more closely now!

[fire_and_moonlight]

The deer might be your spirit guide. Listen to them very closely, even if u cant dipher their messages! or there could be a god/ess trying to contact you. are there any whose symbol is a deer? you should look that up and see.

[DandelionDame]

Thank you for the info, Ladyvi! And fire and moonlight!

I've always loved deer, and have looked into the possibility of deer being a power animal or something similar. My nature is more like a deer than anything else; I'm skittish with people, but tend to be quite compassionate (much more so as I've aged) but I think she may have been more of the message animal than anything. When I really focused on her, I just felt simple, uncomplicated love and unquestioning instinct. Hmmm... Maybe she was a sign that I've been initially accepted into Irish witchy ways in some form and to trust that? And now it's time to work harder than ever before to develop that?

Again, I am so bad at this. :)

Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your thoughts!

[Dave the Druid]

I have heard that deer a symbol of change....
So far I have seen a lot of deer but little change

Someone said 'power animal.' I would think any animal is a 'power animal.'
I am not a good Ovate, so I ask for guidance regularly. I would suggest oracular signifigance first.

[PoisonIvy]

Our family crest has 4 stags on it! My dad told me once what they stood for,but I can't remember. I'll ask him again. We have deer everywhere around here!

[DandelionDame]

Poison Ivy, please do let me/us know what your Dad says when you get to ask him - I'll take any leads I can get!

I have heard that deer a symbol of change....

So far I have seen a lot of deer but little change

Someone said 'power animal.' I would think any animal is a 'power animal.'
I am not a good Ovate, so I ask for guidance regularly. I would suggest oracular signifigance first.

I understand a power animal to be an animal spirit that is personally, strongly linked to and allied with a person from either birth or a very young age and its energy or "medicine" can be called into that person when they need strength or "power". I suppose that's why I don't feel that deer is my power animal, as my nature tends to be somewhat deer-like anyway and when I need strength or power, I need to call something different than my every day nature, something more fierce and aggressive, I guess you could say.

But this has digressed. :)

I am definitely looking for guidance in this matter, as my interpretive, intuitive skills are lacking; sadly, I have no one in non-electronic life to consult, hence my pleading with you Druidical folks for some leads. ;) I'm not sure what you mean by oracular significance - would you mind explaining what that means? Sorry, I may be a little slow today!

[Dave the Druid]

Give me a moment here....

I am definitely looking for guidance in this matter, as my interpretive, intuitive skills are lacking; sadly, I have no one in non-electronic life to consult, hence my pleading with you Druidical folks for some leads. I'm not sure what you mean by oracular significance - would you mind explaining what that means? Sorry, I may be a little slow today!

Guidance is what I was suggesting,

Definitions of oracle on the Web:

prophet: an authoritative person who divines the future
a prophecy (usually obscure or allegorical) revealed by a priest or priestess; believed to be infallible
An Oracle is a person or agency considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinion; an infallible authority, usually spiritual in nature. In the ancient world many sites gained a reputation for the dispensing of oracular wisdom: they too became known as "oracles," as did the oracular utterances themselves, whose very name is derived from the Latin verb orare, to speak


You are not slow. The Ovate class od Druids are the one's who can fortell the future and read signs. I can read signs in nature but for specific meaning I call upon Ovates for a clearer answer.
Not to take anyones thunder here, but have you tried the Dreams and Divination thread?
Dreams and Divination (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
I have called upon the posters therein on a coulpe of occasions and they have had good answers.
Hope this helps!

[DandelionDame]

Thank you so much for evaluating, Dave the Druid; very much appreciated. I wasn't sure if the oracular significance was a reference to one particular method I wasn't quite catching (which happens more than I care to admit)... I will post my question in the D&D area.

Thank you to everyone who has replied.

[Fane Ayuma]

deer have a huge part in Celtic lore.They were seen as the noblest of creatures, the wise creatures, even how the ancients kept an eye on things.

White deer however have an entirely different meaning, White deer was the symbol of the celtic way coming to a halt and christianity taking over.

White deer symbolises the death of the one thing and the start of another.

[ap Dafydd]

deer have a huge part in Celtic lore.They were seen as the noblest of creatures, the wise creatures, even how the ancients kept an eye on things.

White deer however have an entirely different meaning, White deer was the symbol of the celtic way coming to a halt and christianity taking over.

White deer symbolises the death of the one thing and the start of another.

White deer also symbolise the Otherworld, as do white animals generally. Think about the opening of the Mabinogi, where Pwyll hunts the white stag.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[wolfchild]

Being one who depends upon their animal spirit guide often, I recently learned a very difficult lesson.
Animals are generally pure in spirit, they can deliver messages, mostly I get them from wolves in dreams, or horses (of which I visit often).
The message can be important, or simply that awareness is there, but never mistakenly put an animal guide before God. You will be punished if you do :(

Not to say that seeing the purity isn't exhaulting, just that I got caught up in the animal, and lost the spirit and had to work damn hard to find the spirit again!

[skilly-nilly]

I have been mulling this over, and had some thoughts:

I think that, ethnic or cultural teachings aside, what a Spirit Animal has to teach you is tied to the actuality of that animal's behavior in the real world. So what the Celts thought about deer and what the Cherokee think about deer has to take second place to the lesson of Spirit Deer as who she is. I use 'she' because I get the feeling that the Spirit Deer who is contacting you is a hind rather than a stag---am I right?

The biological example/lesson of deer is that they form friendship groups. Most prey animals form groups (it's selected for in terms of greater chance of spotting predators as well as surviving the encounter) but deer, unlike say wild horses who group as a stallion and his mares or say elephants who group as a matriarch and her female descendants, group as loosely connected individuals. So, maybe the deer sightings are an affirmation that identifying yourself as a Pagan and being a member of MysticWicks is a Right Action for you.

:dancy: , skily-nilly

[Ladyvi]

in wild horse herds it is often thought of that the stallion is the head of the herd. in fact wild horse herds are also matriarchal. though the head stallion as well as a couple of lesser males with in the group watch for predators and protect the herd. it is the matriarchal mare that knows when to leave an area. where to go next. where the watering holes are much like a elephant matriarch does. it is the matriarch of the herd that actually runs the show with wild horses.

the male does enjoy a more dominant role than that of the elephants, but the dominant female will deffinately put the dominant male in his place is she needs to.
born and raised in texas.. personal experience at being around horses and wild horses.

[DandelionDame]

As always, skilly-nilly, very informed insight and very valuable points to think about. I did get kind of caught up in over-intellectualizing the repeated sightings, attempting to put the deer into a semi-CR framework. :rolleyes: I've been forcing myself as of late to knock that off!

The deer have seemed to be both at various times - most times I saw a lady deer, but another time it was a gentleman deer with little, just-blossoming antlers. He was the one who ran right through my front yard while hubby and I just watched, slackjawed, just 20 or 30 feet away as the dog started chasing him (doggie didn't get too close - the stag was FAST). THAT was cool! The lady deer seems to mostly keep to the edge of the yard, so she's still in the woods but able to be seen.

I think you're right (especially as I was typing that last paragraph, some realizations hit me); I think the Deer Spirit was very possibly giving me a metaphorical thumbs-up, an "attagirl". :) I've loved deer my whole life, and to see them so often at home recently really felt/feels like a great gift, like I'm finally ready for this path I've been working so hard toward and the timing is finally right.

Or maybe we just have the tastiest foliage in town.:lol:

I have been mulling this over, and had some thoughts:

I think that, ethnic or cultural teachings aside, what a Spirit Animal has to teach you is tied to the actuality of that animal's behavior in the real world. So what the Celts thought about deer and what the Cherokee think about deer has to take second place to the lesson of Spirit Deer as who she is. I use 'she' because I get the feeling that the Spirit Deer who is contacting you is a hind rather than a stag---am I right?

The biological example/lesson of deer is that they form friendship groups. Most prey animals form groups (it's selected for in terms of greater chance of spotting predators as well as surviving the encounter) but deer, unlike say wild horses who group as a stallion and his mares or say elephants who group as a matriarch and her female descendants, group as loosely connected individuals. So, maybe the deer sightings are an affirmation that identifying yourself as a People and being a member of MysticWicks is a Right Action for you.

:dancy: , skily-nilly

[skilly-nilly]

in wild horse herds it is often thought of that the stallion is the head of the herd. in fact wild horse herds are also matriarchal. though the head stallion as well as a couple of lesser males with in the group watch for predators and protect the herd. it is the matriarchal mare that knows when to leave an area. where to go next. where the watering holes are much like a elephant matriarch does. it is the matriarch of the herd that actually runs the show with wild horses.

the male does enjoy a more dominant role than that of the elephants, but the dominant female will deffinately put the dominant male in his place is she needs to.
born and raised in texas.. personal experience at being around horses and wild horses.

Thanks for the personal experience knowledge--I was classifying horse herds as stallion-and-mares not so much because the stallion is the leader, but because (as in musk oxen) the group is mixed. Unlike elephants, which are only granny, sisters, and juvenile children---adult males only visit. Deer are interesting because they congregate so loosely--sometimes more, sometimes fewer. One wonders how and by what criteria (apart from Winter, when they group up to get by).

[Nantonos]

I was classifying horse herds as stallion-and-mares not so much because the stallion is the leader, but because (as in musk oxen) the group is mixed.
Ask Ceffyl about horse herd dynamics. A lead mare is more common.

Unlike elephants, which are only granny, sisters, and juvenile children---adult males only visit. Deer are interesting because they congregate so loosely--sometimes more, sometimes fewer. One wonders how and by what criteria (apart from Winter, when they group up to get by).

This winter they were congregating in thousands in the Highlands of Scotland, because bad weather was forcing them down off the hills towards the Perth-Inverness road. Ok, a blizzard, not bad weathr for everyone but the deer seemed to think it sucked.

[Ceffyl]

Skilly,

That is an interesting comparison between a 'family-group' of deer and the bonded, hierarchical structure in a horse herd.

From personal experience and reading (see links below for some examples), herd responsibility is definitely split between the lead mare and the lead stallion. Who exactly is in charge depends upon which source you are reading. From what I've seen, I'd vote for the mare. She keeps everyone else in line, some times just with a glare or threat. The lead stallion, for example, might fight to protect the herd while the mare leads the other herd members away. When it comes down to a fight, mares can be just as vicious (if not more so) than stallions. (The Bedouin used Arabian mares to go to battle on, instead of stallions which were popular among the European countries.)

I haven't considered the herd dynamics comparison between horses and deer before. Thank you for the interesting topic and reading opportunities.


Links on herd dynamics:
Wild Horse Behavior:
http://www.returntofreedom.org/kids/behavior.htm (http://www.returntofreedom.org/kids/behavior.htm)
LeadMare.com Herd Behavior: http://www.leadmare.com/info_center/behavior/herd_behavior.html (http://www.leadmare.com/info_center/behavior/herd_behavior.html)
Natural Horsemanship: Training ~ Respect
http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/respect.shtml (http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/respect.shtml)

[The Dagda]

Dia Duit!
This is my first post here in the Druid forum, though I've been reading it with great interest for quite some time. So I thought I'd attempt to make a splash with an Irish Gaelic greeting, which I hope I didn't botch too badly. :)

Anyhoo, I'll try to keep this concise. I've been reading and learning about witchy stuff, and Celtic subjects (Irish in particular) off and on for pretty much most of my life, but actually practicing in various forms only the past few years. My focus and attentions have been bounced around wildly, especially within the past year, mostly due to dreams and signs that would not be ignored, but have wanted to focus on Ireland. My brain and someone out there had different plans for me, though, which as been both frustrating and intensely educational! As of late, though, I'm feeling like my time to attune with the Irish deities and spirits and way of life (as much as I can do, seeing as I live in New England, U.S.A.) might finally be coming. Trying not to get my hopes up too much again, but things are clicking here and there.

Now to the deer question! My spirituality, especially my lifelong connection to Ireland in various forms, has been at the forefront of my mind the past few days in particular. Yesterday morning, as I went to shut the drapes to keep the blasted sunny heat out of my kitchen, I was stopped dead in my tracks by the sight of a big, beautiful doe eating plants and leaves in my backyard! I stared at her, grinning like a madwoman, and she looked around, then stared right at me for a few seconds. When she resumed eating, I forced myself to resume getting ready for work and a while later, took my dog out, as I kept looking to see if she was still there, but didn't see her. So I'm outside with the dog and look around - and she's still in the woods behind our house! But she's hiding in the plants and trees, with only her big ol' ears and gorgeous eyes sticking up, staring. So I'm euphoric! Then force myself to leave for work, and when I'm about 3 or 4 miles away from home, on a dirt road, another deer crosses my path! I live in the country, but do not see deer as often as you might think.

This felt/feels like a "message" somehow, and maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I can't shake the feeling that Deer is related to my long and winding path pursuing an Irish spirituality. I've read a little bit about deer in Celtic lore, but can't find anything really in-depth in the searching I've done. Would you brilliant Druids help a gal out?

I really meant for this post to be about half the length of this! Just wanted to shed some light on my circumstances, in case it helps. Thank you!
dia is muire duit dandeliondame,

for the record, i havent got any advice to offer you regarding your choices, they r for you to make, but regarding the deer in the de dannann dynasty of irish gods to which most pagans owe their allegiances (which pre-date the celts' arrival in ireland and belonged to the fir bolg people) the image of the deer/stag was extreemly important. the irish red deer was for an epoch, the only large herbivore(apart from the boar) on the island, and therefore would be comparable to the cow in hinduism, but with an emphasis on the hunting of, rather than the protection of. The main god associated with this animal was Lu or Lugh. August the 1st is the feast of "lughnasadh" and lunasa is irish for august. Lu was the horned god, and wore the antlers of a stag and headress of deerskin. He was the son of cian of the Tuaithe de dannann and eithnu of the formorians (a race of gods and demonesque creatures respectivly). He fought in the second battle of moytura, in which the tuaithe de dannann defeated the formors. Nuada king of the de dannann, was killed by balor of the evil eye, who was then in turn killed by Lu, the soon to be king of the de dannann.

To ask what Lu was the god of?? wel as he was the master of everything, arts, war etc he transcends any formal type of divine functionality. having said that, Lu was strongly associated with healing, and thus, could become a centering theme for worship.

i hope that was helpfull.
perhaps for further reading and a beautiful-if-not innacurate portrayal of lu, check out www.jimfitzpatrick.ie (www.jimfitzpatrick.ie)

beannacht lu ort

dagda