Same Sex Marriages...

[Kaylara]

From:
http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/article/0,2669,SAV-0103150286,FF.html

PRESBYTERIAN CLERGY GETS SAY ON SAME-SEX UNIONS

By Julia Lieblich
Tribune Religion Writer
March 15, 2001
The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. on Wednesday sent the clergy its clearest signal yet that it is up to them to decide whether to perform same-sex commitment ceremonies for gay and lesbian couples.

In rejecting a proposal to ban such rituals, the church lends encouragement to gays and lesbians while continuing its wrenching three-decade debate over their role in the church.

"[The decision] means a tremendous relief and pleasure that the church is going to continue to minister to all of its members," said Mitzi Henderson, co-moderator of More Light Presbyterians, which supports full participation of gays and lesbians. Pastors, she said, will be more likely to perform gay union ceremonies because they won't fear legal challenges from the church.

Still, Rev. John Buchanan, pastor of Chicago's Fourth Presbyterian Church and a founding member of the Covenant Network, a Presbyterian group that supports such blessings, says it's too early to celebrate.

"It would not be appropriate to claim a victory," said Buchanan, who sees the rejection not so much as support for gay unions as an indication of Presbyterians' historic desire to give local clergy and congregations autonomy in decision-making--an assessment echoed by church conservatives.

Many Presbyterians opposed the ban because they "saw it solely as a political issue and felt it would unduly hinder the free exercise of pastoral ministry," said William Giles, executive coordinator of the conservative Presbyterian Coalition.

The denomination, with 2.6 million members, reported earlier this month that a random survey of Presbyterians showed 57 percent supported a ban on same-sex blessing rituals.

Tensions over gay unions cut across mainline Protestant denominations. Last May, the United Methodist Church drew protests when it voted to keep a ban on same-sex ceremonies. The Evangelical Lutheran Church discourages such blessings without prohibiting them, while the Southern Baptists oppose such unions, period. Some Episcopal dioceses have performed same-sex blessings, but the national church has not taken an official stand on the issue.

The United Church of Christ has been supportive of gay unions and sanctions such ceremonies.

The Presbyterians' defeat of the proposed ban does not constitute church approval of "gay marriage," because church law defines marriage as "a civil contract between a man and a woman." But many see blessing ceremonies as something different.

"There's nothing in our constitution that says this is illegal," said Cynthia Campbell, president of McCormick Theological Seminary, though like Henderson, she notes that pastors may have been reluctant to perform union services for fear of courting controversy.

The church does not keep statistics on how many same-sex blessing ceremonies have been held over the years, but Henderson said she has attended several and now expects to see more.

Passed last June by the church's top policymaking body, the General Assembly, the proposal read in part: "Church property shall not be used for, and church officers shall not take part in conducting any ceremony or event that pronounces the blessing of God upon any relationship that is inconsistent with God's intention."

The proposal was sent to 173 presbyteries, or regional governing bodies. Although the vote count isn't final, the church acknowledged Wednesday that the majority has voted against the measure.

Controversy over the role of gays in the church is far from over. At the denomination's national assembly beginning June 9, Presbyterians will vote on whether to repeal a requirement that clergy and lay officers be in heterosexual marriages or live in "chastity in singleness."

"Our denomination is split down the middle on the ordination issue," said church spokesmen Gary Luhr.

Giles said Presbyterian conservatives will try to defeat the proposal on biblical grounds. Campbell and other progressive Presbyterians will encourage the church once again to allow governing bodies the right to decide, this time about whom to ordain.

"We want to do everything we can to encourage dialogue and conversation," she said of the upcoming talks. "We want an openness to gay and lesbian people, but we also want a church where people of good will may disagree."

What is the pagan communities' feelings about same sex marriages?

Kaylara

[amberlaine]

I"ll be honest. I don't even understand the issue.

What business is it of mine what other people choose to do with their private lives if they aren' thurting anybody? If a woman wants to marry a woman, who the heck am I to say "no, you cant". I think its completely and utterly ridiculous that the government gets to decide what kind of person we can marry.

In Catholicism, marriage is solely to produce and rear children. Thats it. Impotenet people are not allowed to marry. Thus, it follows that the Catholic church doesn't allow same sex marriages. I guess I can understand that, since their view of marriage is so....different. But for the rest of us, for whom marriage is an expression of *love*....

Hey, all acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals. Let Her decide :)

[Earth Walker]

This is not a slam on all men, but "marriage" is an
invention of the patriarchs to keep women
enslaved.
While I do not believe in marriage personally, I
also believe that it should be the right of two
women or men to do just that, if they so desire.
The government has no business in the nation's
bedrooms.
The separation of church and state is a convenient lie.


Walk gently with the Goddess. :sunny:

[Kaylara]

I agree... It is not my business who someone loves or marries. In the same line of thinking, I don't think that the government should have anything to do with marriage. Or with saying that one kind of love is legally recognized, and another is not. That is not the business of the government. That is between the people who are involved in the relationship.

Kaylara

[mol]

Love knows no bounds. Not even our Gender.

[Earth Walker]

Just an unrelated question mol.
May I get a pictograph to put under my name?
Thanx.



Walk gently with the Goddess. :sunny:

[bluecat]

Banning same sex marriages is really another asinine display of power. Who cares if two women or two men want to get married, for that matter I really don't see anything wrong with polandry or polygyny (both practices are better known as polygamy).

These laws are examples that the Church and State are not as separate as we would like to see. Everytime I hear that same sex unions are "unnatural" I get the person to continue on with "under God's eyes." I could rant on about this kind of thing for a long time, :smash: but choose not to, it would just turn into something I would rather not see.

Bottom line, who cares? Gee, wouldn't it be a hoot if it turned out that polygamy and same sex marriages lowered the divorce rate?

BlueCat

[Amora]

The church decides everything as far as marriage is concerned...the sex of the person you are marrying, the religious beliefs, etc... I personally never understood how it is that a priest who has sworn off sexual relations can counsel a couple on whether or not they should be together. That is udderly ridiculous. What really does he know (other then how to molest their poor children!)??? I don't personally want to marry anyone of the same sex but if it's going to make someone else happy then so be it. I just don't want these idiots running our lives!!!

[richardcranium]

I personally know two gay men who will be getting "married" soon and I think it is kind of weird. There isn't alot of gay stuff going around in my neck of the woods so I am not really use to it yet. I don't see the problem with it. I think it's like being on a tiny boat and a whale comes up to you for the first time. You are scared at first then you realize that it is not going to hurt you. So I guess it goes back to the Wiccan rede, And it harm none, do as thou whilst.

[mol]

Originally posted by Mystique
Just an unrelated question mol.
May I get a pictograph to put under my name?
Thanx.



Walk gently with the Goddess. :sunny:

OT:


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[random]

I have nothing against 'gays' or 'lesbians'.. itsa just not the way i choose to live...
I think that if they wish to be married, then let them. you don't need a church to get married. geez... If it is against the llaw, in my opinion, thats just wrong. (being against the law)
it's their buisness, leave them be.

[sherry]

Well this is a subject that I am teased about often!!
My friends say that I could be at a gay pride parade and think it was Macey's and that I don't have Gaydar.
well I guess I don't because I think that who I sleep with is private as well. I know several people who are and it doesn't matter to me one way or the other!
When I meet someone it truthfully never crosses my mind who they sleep with it isn't my business

I find that a gay man make the best friend that a girl could possibly have ! He is always there for you and isn't affraid to tell you that what your wearing isn't the best looking thing you've had on and there is no compitition when you go out with a group of friends like when you party with a group of women. We protect each other and if the gay bashing starts up as a women I will lie to keep him from being harmed by a fool !!
I think That Is What Friends DO !!

[lynx]

In all truths, marriage means the act or ceremony that unites people (complements of dictionary) not by gender but by devotion to one another and love.

I personally do not know any one who is gender different when it comes to love. I see no reason to worry what others want. They don't bother me. They just want what many of us want, love. So be it if it is woman and woman or man and man. They show me everytime I see them on TV or hear about them, that we are all human. We all have needs and wants.

It really annoys me when the government says we can or can't feel love towards one another. Like they give any good examples when it comes right down to it. The soldiers are the ones that show love and they are condemned as traitors. Where does it say in the constitution, the Bill of Rights, or other documents, that the government rules the people? I learned it as the people run the government. I know I'm not wrong!!! They are!!!m (the government)

Our Freedom :smash: the government

Lynx

[folkwitch]

Well, here I go back up on my soapbox again. The world is already overpopulated, you don't need TWO people anymore to make a baby and - face it - if someone would invent a dildo that could mow the lawn, men would be obsolete.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by folkwitch
Well, here I go back up on my soapbox again. The world is already overpopulated, you don't need TWO people anymore to make a baby and - face it - if someone would invent a dildo that could mow the lawn, men would be obsolete.

But, would it take out the garbage too????

BlueCat

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by mol
Love knows no bounds. Not even our Gender.
i have to agree with mol on this one as long as there is love anything can happen. just because they are the same sex doesnt matter in a relationship. hell my girl friends bisexual and i dont care as long i qoute as long as she comes back clean the next day. im fine with it. but there are some disadvantages to a gay relationship and some to a normal one... but if any guy comes up to me and grabbs me. hes not going to be walking away. other wise i have no problem

[folkwitch]

Hey Bluecay - I knew I could make you laugh!!!

[bluecat]

Originally posted by folkwitch
Hey Bluecay - I knew I could make you laugh!!!

:D

[belladonna23]

If two people can find love and make it work in this screwed-up world, then they should be congratulated, not condemned.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I've sent 2 husbands off to be with other men. I wanted them to be happy. You would think after that I would be against it but I'm not. I think people should do what feels right for them and I don't see how it hurts anyone else. The only times people are hurt is when a partner denies what they are because others think it's wrong. One of my exes needs a lot of therapy because he was told it was wrong to want your own sex. The people that made him think he needed a wife to be normal hurt him not the men he had been with. I believe in live and let live. Be happy in your choices no matter what they are!

[Litha]

hey! I'm happy with my sweetiebooboo, but I want that dildo if only to mow the lawn and take out the trash!

looong ago I decided not to take my boyfriend to my senior prom although he had taken me to his the year prior. He had offered to fly home from college to go, but I let him know I was taking one of my male friends instead, since back then, my friend couldn't have gone with his boyfriend to the prom, they would've gotten kicked out.
His boyfriend went with a girl as well and we all danced the night away. After graduation, my friend decided on NYU since he knew that this would be a safe haven for his lifestyle.

live and let live

[Niamh]

I agree with you all, it's none of my business, live and let live, allow people to love one another.... I got really upset when same sex marriages became a topic during one of the presidential elections. Who are THEY to decide such a thing? (who are they to decide anything, really...)
As an aside, I know some gay couples who are much happier and make better matches than many heterosexual couples that I know!

[Kaylara]

Vermont House outlaws gay marriage
By Ross Sneyd, Associated Press, 3/16/2001 19:33
MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) The Vermont House formally passed an explicit ban on gay marriage Friday, but senators said they don't plan to act on the bill, dooming its chance to become law.

The bill would not undo the groundbreaking civil union law approved last year. Civil unions run parallel to marriage, granting all of its rights, benefits and responsibilities, but remain a separate legal entity.

The Republican-controlled House had approved the bill Thursday in a preliminary vote after an emotional, three-hour debate.

Supporters said the bill was needed to clearly state that marriage is not between two men or two women under Vermont law. Opponents said the civil unions law is already clear and an additional statute is unnecessary.

Rep. George Schiavone said his goal was to preserve traditional marriage.

Senate President Pro Tem Peter Shumlin said the bill was a reactionary political statement and reflected anti-gay bias.

''I think that the House, by playing politics with this bill, is awfully close to baiting a minority group that should receive the same respect as everyone else in the state,'' Shumlin, a Democrat, said.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Richard Sears said the panel was unlikely to consider the bill.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/075/nation/Vermont_House_outlaws_gay_marr:.shtml

[Summer Solstice]

I personally feel EVERYONE who wants to show their love for each other and get married should be able to ,no matter same sex.

[lynx]

I figure if you are in love, to heck with those who would try to abuse it. People like those in Washington and other places that say same sex is wrong should take a good look in the mirror, most of them realize that they already are into the same sex when they least expect it. They always seem to down it, then they realize that what they were saying and doing was wrong and against them. (Can we say, DUH!)

So I say, to heck with you people that can't enjoy what the greater power set us forth to do. Make love and peace and harmony. :sunny:

Lynx :p

[Acie]

Couldn't care less... At peace with myself and don't need the approval of others, My partner and I are content. As far as others, if they choose to join in the eyes of the law then that right should be theirs. So I believe.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Kaylara
What is the pagan communities' feelings about same sex marriages?

Kaylara


The objections to same sex marriages are religious in nature. There shouldn't be any problem in performing a civil ceremony, the government's only interest is in seeing that the legal contract is between two unmarried people. It's telling that the government does NOT require a religious ceremony, only a civil one.

I personally don't care.

Regards,

Maggie

[Camilia]

Because my mother lives in vermont, i get to hear all about all the uproar about gays. My parents think its really wrong and unnatural and all that. They're all supportive of the Take Back Vermont movement. Personally, I have no problem with anyone because of their sexuality. Couldn't care less either way, because I'm happily married. BUT, I do know that the solution to this can't, even if it should, be people just saying "We're going to do this and you have to accept it so just deal with it." It won't work. People like my parents who have strong beliefs of thier own will simply look at this as an attempt to undermine thier religion, values, way of life. My mother doesn't want the schools teaching my little brother that its normal. She equates gay people with pedophiles, and no matter how many conversations I have with her on the matter, she will not change her mind. It is a futile argument. People will not be forced to accept it. Just as she cannot convince me to not be pagan, I cannot convince her not to equate gays with pedophiles. It's a battle of wills, and it shouldn't be. Neither side is going to force the other into submission. There has to be talk on both sides, and concessions made on both sides, just like any peace talks. I hate to admit this, because I would like everyone just to wake up and stop trying to tell other people how to live their lives, but I'm afraid that's just not going to happen. Anyhow, this is just my humble opinion.

Camilia

[Ayla]

Do most pagans believe, then, that the soul has a gender? Haven't many of us been both male and female over the course of different lives? Does anyone here know a soulmate? Would it matter to you if in the next life your partner came back the same sex as you did?

I don't believe so. I wouldn't care if my man became tomorrow's my woman, I'd still be in love with that individual. Whatever body we wear, it's just an expression of half of our soul, and it most certainly isn't permanent, or, in matters of love, relevant.

Love & Hugs,
http://ayla.brinkster.net/ayla/images/signatureT.gif

[Niamh]

I don't believe that the soul is either male or female. I believe it is equal parts both...

[Dextra]

This is one of those issues that really needs to be taken out of the government's hands. They have no right to tell anyone who they should be allowed to love and marry. :smash:

I consider myself bisexual and have had a great relationship with a woman that I still consider to be one of my dearest friends. However, I have chosen to commit myself to a man. If Carmelo were a woman, I would love him just as much as I do now, and that love would be no different than it is now. I'm such a goon for him any way, he could be a rabbit and I wouldn't care! :crazy: :heartthro

I agree that the soul is both male and female. I know I have been a man in at least one of my past lives. And I don't think the gender of the person you love should matter when it comes to marriage. So there! :p

[LaDaya]

I don't really think it is the govt or the churches business who people marry but I know most of the gays and lesbians I know want them to legally recognize the validity of their union. What they do behind closed doors is none of my business....

[Carmelo]

Thanks, Dex. See why I love her?

Me, myself, I have never really believed in reincarnation, but that doesn't mean it's not true. I don't agree with the idea of same sex marriages, but I have no say in how anybody lives their lives.

I am bi-sexual of sorts, but also committed myself to a woman. With her, and her only, I share my bi-sexuality because I chose to. If the Gestapo that is our government came crashing through our door in one of our special moments, I would do as I have been taught (by the govt) to do...protect my own. When are they going to realize this is America, the land of the free? Probably never.

Same sex marriages? Yeah, I don't like them. But, I cannot tell them they are wrong just because "God says it ain't right". Only the fearful right wing extremists are the ones trying to dictate anybody's life.

In the words of the great George C. Scott who played Gramps on Angus "Screw 'em!"

[adrian]

It really is a shame that we choose to focus our energies on some things that are totally un- important,
who am i to judge someone because of their sexual preference? Life has taught me some important things but that isn't one of them.

[Tigerwallah]

I don't think that love is really what is in question here. I think it's benefits.

Sure, our patriarchal society has issues with the "unnatural"ness of same sex relationships(Although, since homosexuality is displayed in the animal kingdom, I have no idea how anyone could view it as unnatural). It's my opinion, that the issue of marraige isn't really emotional. It's monitary. Married people get tax credits, social security benefits, inheritances without a will present, medical coverage under their spouse's plans, etc. This is just about depriving homosexuals of these benefits.

I believe that marraige is a rather obsolete institution overall. However, the gov't and employers do not give benefits to "partners." I'm bisexual, and personally, I plan on never marrying anyone. I just don't see the gov't and religous institutions having the right to be involved with any of my unions. No one should need the nod of approval from gov't or church when it comes to love and sex.

[Wyrdsister]

Originally posted by Sephiroth
hell my girl friends bisexual and i dont care as long i qoute as long as she comes back clean the next day. im fine with it. but there are some disadvantages to a gay relationship and some to a normal one... but if any guy comes up to me and grabbs me. hes not going to be walking away. other wise i have no problem
Just to be nitpicky,

"Clean" ??

And what makes you think you're such hot stuff that someone's going to go up to you and grab you anyway? ;) I love to ask this question to guys who express this as one of their fears of gay men. :)

All ment in the spirit of dialogue,

Wyrdsister

[bluecat]

I am feeling pretty good about this. I may get to do a ceremony for a couple here. It won't be a legal ceremony, but it will be cool anyway. :cool: I like doing good stuff.

[Red Dragon]

Sorry, I think the purpose of marriage is to bring so called legitimacy to bearing children for the state. It has nothing to do with the feelings two people have for each other nor love. I live with someone whom I love more than anything, and I fail to see how a piece of paper will change that. However there is always pressure from others as to 'when are you two getting married' I do plan a handfasting this year, because I want to and to make it 'legal'. But it all boils down to one thing, people should do what they feel is right for them. No one has the right to say otherwise as long as it harms none. Well I did warn you, we Dragons do tend to ramble. Hee,hee. ;)

[Summer Solstice]

My feeling is the same as before . As long as I am invited to the wedding !!!! I do not care who gets married ,as long as they love each other...It is only a piece of paper thought,do we really need that to show your emotions ????

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Summer Solstice
My feeling is the same as before . As long as I am invited to the wedding !!!! I do not care who gets married ,as long as they love each other...It is only a piece of paper thought,do we really need that to show your emotions ????

I'm happier if I get invited to the reception. :cool:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :p

[Summer Solstice]

You are hoping for OPEN BAR ???

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Summer Solstice
You are hoping for OPEN BAR ???

Heh, don't drink ... but there is usually some great food and fun ...

[Summer Solstice]

Good !!! but as I said before ,as long as 2 people are happy with each other who cares !

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Summer Solstice
Good !!! but as I said before ,as long as 2 people are happy with each other who cares !

That's the most important part. I was just trying to break up the serious tone with the invitation joke ... :cool:

[Apotheosis]

I'm a late comer to the discussion. I'm going to leap over a couple of issues I found interesting.

1) Heterosexual men who expouse a violent reaction to the advances of a homosexual man are homophobes. This quite easy to see if we simply review the definition of homophobia. C'mon guys, it's no different than if a woman you're not interested in makes a pass at you.

2) Marriage is an affirmation to the community of commitment. I think it is an important step to building a family. Children are better off with more than one parent, and the community and the family are related groups. Marriage is important. I support same sex marriages. Marriages can be civil or religious, your choice. Polygamy is ... I have no idea what it is. The only word that comes to mind is 'complicated'. Hey, if your religion is all for it, go nuts. But civily, one marriage per person. Otherwise it becomes some kind of tax shelter love in.

Perhaps we need another word, as marriage has long been a patriachal institution of oppression. I don't see this being a necessary part of it, but our society does still raise a lot of women to fill a subserviant role in marriage. I think this particular angle depends on the people, as a feminist wouldn't be the same sort of wife.

3) People should NOT always do what feels right, because often that is the 'easiest' thing and not the 'right' thing. Do what IS right. Not what feels right.

I know a LOT of single mothers because nobody involved believed in commitment, and when it 'felt right' people moved on to other partners. Life is not that cavalier. There are consequences to all actions. A lot of people gloss that fact right over to avoid having to tell someone "Hey, what you are doing is wrong, and here is why."

Well, there is some food for though. :-)

Apotheos

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Apotheosis
I'm a late comer to the discussion. I'm going to leap over a couple of issues I found interesting.

1) Heterosexual men who expouse a violent reaction to the advances of a homosexual man are homophobes. This quite easy to see if we simply review the definition of homophobia. C'mon guys, it's no different than if a woman you're not interested in makes a pass at you.

2) Marriage is an affirmation to the community of commitment. I think it is an important step to building a family. Children are better off with more than one parent, and the community and the family are related groups. Marriage is important. I support same sex marriages. Marriages can be civil or religious, your choice. Polygamy is ... I have no idea what it is. The only word that comes to mind is 'complicated'. Hey, if your religion is all for it, go nuts. But civily, one marriage per person. Otherwise it becomes some kind of tax shelter love in.

Perhaps we need another word, as marriage has long been a patriachal institution of oppression. I don't see this being a necessary part of it, but our society does still raise a lot of women to fill a subserviant role in marriage. I think this particular angle depends on the people, as a feminist wouldn't be the same sort of wife.

3) People should NOT always do what feels right, because often that is the 'easiest' thing and not the 'right' thing. Do what IS right. Not what feels right.

I know a LOT of single mothers because nobody involved believed in commitment, and when it 'felt right' people moved on to other partners. Life is not that cavalier. There are consequences to all actions. A lot of people gloss that fact right over to avoid having to tell someone "Hey, what you are doing is wrong, and here is why."

Well, there is some food for though. :-)

Apotheos


Marriage is an invention of the patriarchal religions, and its
main purpose is to subjugate women; however it is also
demeaning to men, but most of them lack an awareness to
understand this.
The bible, koran, torah, etc., are full of "advice" on how men
are to "take care" of women, and how women are to act
towards men......in short, she is to jump when he says jump.
She is not to ask how high, just jump....and she dare not come
down until he tells her. :mad: :mad:

[Yvonne Belisle]

Out of 4 husbands I only had problems with one. Ratio like that tends to blow that arguement right out of the water. The majority of marrages I know are partnerships both those that are male female and those that are same sex. The idea that men dominate in the household is an outdated thought that is only practiced by the ignorant. Marriage is good for many people but like anything else it isn't right for everyone. I think any couple that wishes to dedicate themselves should have the right to do so.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Ayla
Do most pagans believe, then, that the soul has a gender?

I don't htink that the soul has gender. I know that I've been male and female. Just happens that I'm female in this lifetime.


Does anyone here know a soulmate?

I've known three in this lifetime ~ yes, it's possible to have more than one! ~ and am lucking enough to be living and very happy with one of them.


Would it matter to you if in the next life your partner came back the same sex as you did?

Nope.

[Mairwen]

I know a LOT of single mothers because nobody involved believed in commitment

As a divorced parent, let me tell you, this isn't always the case, even though most of the people I've ever spoken to seems to think it is. Look, the man I was with nearly took my life. I was supposed to stay in that marriage just so my kids could have a stable home? What a load! They're much better off with us apart ~ and I'm still alive, which is a major contribution in my life! Not all marriages are a good thing.

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Out of 4 husbands I only had problems with one. Ratio like that tends to blow that arguement right out of the water. The majority of marrages I know are partnerships both those that are male female and those that are same sex. The idea that men dominate in the household is an outdated thought that is only practiced by the ignorant. Marriage is good for many people but like anything else it isn't right for everyone. I think any couple that wishes to dedicate themselves should have the right to do so.

Fortunately, for you, and most modern women, times have changed. I daresay, because of women like Mystique who did not "settle" and did not stop fighting. Our lives are better for it today. You might not have made that statement if this was 1951, and you probably would not have made that statement if this was 1851, and you definately would not have made this statement if this was 1751 and earlier, or if you lived in a Muslim country at any point in history within the last 3,000 years.

So instead of discouraging those who fight for our rights, lets thank them for it. We would not be where we are today if it weren't for the Gloria Steinems, Susan B. Anthony's and Amelia Earharts of the world, women who pissed and moaned and faught damn hard to get the equality they (we) deserve. Without discontent there would be no change.

[Yvonne Belisle]

As I said it is an outmoded line of thought. There was a time when we needed to fight I even marched for ERA but we won the war. Now is the time to join both armies and educate but when the winning side continues to harp upon the issues we won it makes them nothing but sore winners. It also tends to make people think that instead of the reasonable intellegent beings we claimed to be that we are irrational petulant children who threw a tantrum got the toy and are still throwing the same tantrum. If we had something new to say that would be different. How many times as a kid did you stop listening because the lecture being given was the same thing you had heard over and over??? How long do you think people want to have this fight over eqality continue? From everything that has been said it doesn't sound like a request for equality so much as a demand for the males of this world to get down on thier knees and start kissing feet. As for marriage I say who gives a flying fig what side came up with it. It is a good institution and just because it isn't right for everyone is no reason to put it down.

[Tigerwallah]

But have we really won yet?

Marraige has changed, overall. It has become about love and choice where it used to be about duty and producing offspring.

Society is as equall right now as it has ever been, but right now, men are determining my reproductive rights, and I have been paid less money for doing a better job than my male counterparts.

I could go on, but everyone hates a feminist. Only I hear that more than I hear the balking of the feminists.

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
As I said it is an outmoded line of thought. There was a time when we needed to fight I even marched for ERA but we won the war. Now is the time to join both armies and educate but when the winning side continues to harp upon the issues we won it makes them nothing but sore winners. It also tends to make people think that instead of the reasonable intellegent beings we claimed to be that we are irrational petulant children who threw a tantrum got the toy and are still throwing the same tantrum. If we had something new to say that would be different. How many times as a kid did you stop listening because the lecture being given was the same thing you had heard over and over??? How long do you think people want to have this fight over eqality continue? From everything that has been said it doesn't sound like a request for equality so much as a demand for the males of this world to get down on thier knees and start kissing feet. As for marriage I say who gives a flying fig what side came up with it. It is a good institution and just because it isn't right for everyone is no reason to put it down.

It would be wonderful if there was total equality between the
genders today, but Pagan men are a minority. Until the white,
heterosexual, WASP male gives up his fantasy of "superiority"
over women, his unjustified tenet that "white is right", and
being a slave to economic and other patriarchal oppressions,
etc., there will be no true equality for any/all people.
This is why we must continue to fight for the rights of ALL people!


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Yvonne Belisle]

I found myself being drawn into the fight that is beginning and I refuse to be a further part of it. Our opinions are too far apart to even find the middle ground so be it. The topic of this thread is same sex marriage I am going to suggest that the other discussion that is rapidly degenerating to a fight be dropped right here!

Male supremacy or it's lack thereof has no place in a female female marriage or really a male male marriage. We are talking about marriages of the same sex. The reality is that married couples have advantages in health insurance, taxes, auto insurance ect... the question then is should legal marriage between couples of the same sex then be aloud so that life partners would then have the same advantages? In cases where there are children involved marriage between the couple would simplify things. A consent form would not need to be filled out for the other parent. In the event of death the surviving partner would be able to quickly tend to financial issues without marriage banks can freeze an account until the state has decided what to do. Family of the deceased would not be considered the next of kin the spouse would. Employers would cover the partner when it comes to family coverage not all policies have a live in clause. Veterans benefits and social security payments would go to the spouse like the do in a mixed sex marriage. Divorce would also then become available to them as well. There are very few provisions to protect a housespouse in a same sex marriage. If someone gives up their career for their partner they should be compensated if the partnership sours. Currently many of these things are being denied to same sex partners. Legalizing same sex marriages would correct this injustice. Therefore I am for same sex marriages being legal, and federally recognized.

[bluecat]

This is the mind of the thing/beast I was getting at with the bashing post, we have to be able to discuss something without bashing someone for their ideas, gender, or beliefs. The other half of that coin is to not force our beliefs upon someone else, no matter how we sugar coat what we say we must be aware that there should be no allowances for blanket statements that could lead to arguments.

I know many non-pagan men who are very fine men and do not act in the way described, that is from my personal experience; I also know many people of other beliefs that are patriarch based that are very tolerant and open-minded towards ideas of others. It's a bad thing when people are put into a category which they do not fit. When this happens we lose a very valuable asset, our own open minds. When we begin to close our minds we become weak, just as we say others are weak. Being divided over a thing also makes us weaker, having the ability to overcome our own dispositions and listen to others is not a weakness.

Just because we listen to someone else's idea does not mean we are going to follow it, it just means we are listening and are willing to communicate. If we give them a message that we are not willing to hear any other views than our own then the communication breaks down.

That is all I have to say for now, save the fact that this is one of the threads that prompted my post about bashing.

Thank You

Blue

[Mairwen]

Also, I know some Pagan men who are racist and sexist. I know some Pagan women this way, too. So, this isn't just a "Christian" problem. I think it's a "human problem".

[Elaine]

I'm way late in this discussion but I wanted to share something....as I've said before my husband and I work in radio.... once a week we have this guy come into the morning show who is gay....he is a very cool guy who is open and willing to talk about any misconceptions or problems people have with homosexuals....and my husband brought up something that I think is a very common misconception....(this goes back to whoever it was that was talking about another guy hitting on him...sorry I don't remember who it was...) he said that when he thinks about homosexuality he pictures it as that is all they do and think about....that it is their life 24 hours a day....and if someone is gay their automatically going to be attracted to you if you are the same sex.... What you must remember is that homosexuality is just a partner preference....homosexuals work eat and sleep just like heterosexuals do!! They have crushes, likes and dislikes just like heterosexuals!!

I understand Catholicism being against same sex marriages...I was taught in school "sex is for procreation not recreation" (that's a direct quote from the text book we had....I'll never forget it....) I believe that no one should have the right to tell anyone else how to love or how to live their lives!! How many people are getting married heterosexually when they are homosexual just because it is "the right thing to do" If the gov't should be worried about anything when it comes to marriages they should worry about making divorces a little easier and marriages more difficult.....If marriages were a little more difficult to go through I wouldn't have been married at 18 and divorced at 19 and remarried at 20!!! My first marriage was the biggest mistake of my life...I have learned a lot from it...but it put my family through a lot of hurt (I have speculations that it even had something to do with my parents divorce after 25 years of marriage!!) I just think that the gov't should get their priorities straight and start worring about the homeless and hunger and things of the sort instead of which gender I have in my bed with me!!!

sorry I got off on a little tangent there....I shouldn't have started it to begin with...but I felt compelled to add my 2 cents!!! (as I always do!!) :D

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Elaine
<snip>

sorry I got off on a little tangent there....I shouldn't have started it to begin with...but I felt compelled to add my 2 cents!!! (as I always do!!) :D

Nah! You did good, heck, you did GREAT! :cool:

Blue :cool:

[Elaine]

thanks...it's always good to be reassured everyonce in awhile that I'm not annoying everyone....I tend to annoy my husband quite quickly and quite often on a daily basis!!:)

[eaglewolf]

My mother once told me, if someone annoys you, ignore them.

Many people get tired of the drivel and start skipping certain posts all together. The end result, alot of good information is wasted due to poor initial delivery of the content.

Those who forget the past are doomed... yadda yadda yadda...

Keep dragging yourself and others through the mud of the past and see if it ever goes away. My guess, it won't.

Mindless fools who thrive on militant tactics remind me of army grunts running blindly through a mine field to clear path ways for generals...

...sure they are dedicated to the cause and may even make a difference, but in the end they are still mindless fools.

~ew

[cybele]

The churches that bemoan the fall of morals in the world and sometimes point to the gay community as a cess pool of loose mores in regards to sexual practices seem to be the first to be horrified by same sex marriages. I personally don't understand. If one of the concerns with the gay community is the perceived promiscuity, why is there a problem with joining two people in a committed relationship. The very fact that the couple think enough of a church/religion ( and ultimately God) to ask the blessing of the institution that usually ignores/condemns them is a sign of deep commitment. I really don't believe love should be pulled apart into such petty pieces.

I went to a lovely wedding a few years ago, the groom was glowing and the other groom was so proud. They "laid it down" in front of their god and community and friends. They spoke vows of respect for one another and thanked their God for the blessing of finding solace in each other.

I sent a toaster. :)

Life is hard, two bear the weight better than one.

Cybele

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by eaglewolf

Mindless fools who thrive on militant tactics remind me of army grunts running blindly through a mine field to clear path ways for generals...

...sure they are dedicated to the cause and may even make a difference, but in the end they are still mindless fools.

~ew [/B]

Is this Bashing? I don't remember anyone else getting this personal. Or is it ok because it is neither male nor Christian related bashing?

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by cybele

I really don't believe love should be pulled apart into such petty pieces.

Life is hard, two bear the weight better than one.

Cybele

Marraige has evolved and is now about love, but the government has not kept up with the program. As Yvonne said, so much of this is about benefits. Many corporations recognize gay couples and give them all the benefits that a husband or wife of their employees get, but the gov't as a whole is way behind the times.

Unfortunately, there really isn't the separation of church and state that our constitution requires. Therefor, people like Jerry Fallwell have a much greater influence in this matter than they are entitled.

That is why I am very concerned over George W.'s latest - Faith Based Initiative. Things are about to get pretty scary.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah


Is this Bashing? I don't remember anyone else getting this personal. Or is it ok because it is neither male nor Christian related bashing?



That is a sense of frustration at the bashing itself. It is towards the folks, any folks, who just won't let go of a certain train of thought and keep plugging away at it.

Blue

[eaglewolf]

I have had my fair share of playing the mindless fool, and still do from time to time. I feel there is a time and place for this type of action/behavior, but this community is not one of those places.

Typically, I do not respond to issues brought forward on the boards, unless someone complains to me. In this case, I have received numerous complaints from members, not just those speaking out here and elsewhere.

Many have been made to feel uncomfortable, in the work place among others, it is considered hostile environment. This is a form of harassment, even assult.

I understand why people voice their opinions, I understand the importance of personal views. Please understand the plight of the members of this community, and get over yourselves.

~ew

[Kaylara]

Ok... This thread has gotten off topic and I have recieved many complaints. If you want to continue a discussion on bashing, please take it to the bashing thread. I will leave the posts here unless this continues to go off topic, in which case I will close this thread.

Thank you,
Kaylara

[Apotheosis]

Marriage is an invention of the patriarchal religions, and its main purpose is to subjugate women; however it is also
demeaning to men, but most of them lack an awareness to
understand this.

I'm quite aware of this position Mystique. My point is that marriage in the 21'st century is, in many cases, far more a social convention than a religious. Hell, almost all of my peers are athiests.

In that respect, it *can* have little to to with patriarchy, and a whole lot to do with commitment in a relationship.

[Apotheosis]

The idea that men dominate in the household is an outdated thought that is only practiced by the ignorant.

But, as we all know, ignorance is a dominant force in our society...

[Apotheosis]

As a divorced parent, let me tell you, this isn't always the case, even though most of the people I've ever spoken to seems to think it is. Look, the man I was with nearly took my life. I was supposed to stay in that marriage just so my kids could have a stable home? What a load! They're much better off with us apart ~ and I'm still alive, which is a major contribution in my life! Not all marriages are a good thing.

By no means was I meaning to represent some sort of foolish notion of 'staying together for the kids'. Indeed, the example I was attemtping to alude to, wasn't even your scenario.

I'd NEVER say stay together for the kids.

What I was speaking of is that I know of a lot of guys whove shacked up with women, fathered children, and then left when it was convenient. We've raised an entire generation of men who don't know how to raise children. It's very sad.

[Apotheosis]

I could go on, but everyone hates a feminist. Only I hear that more than I hear the balking of the feminists.

Actually, they're one of my favorite sorts of people.

I do things we've deviated from the topic, although I have a hard time imagining that anyone could find anything discussed so far offensive. The discussion of what marriage IS may be critical before we discuss same sex marriages.

To summarize my point on the topic: My position is that since marriage is a social practice more than a religious, it extends to all citizens, regardless of whatever theological objection may be had to the concept of same sex marriages.

[Elaine]

I must say that I'm rather confused ....I think I missed something along the way here....Oh well!!

(origionally posted by cybele)

-The churches that bemoan the fall of morals in the world and sometimes point to the gay community as a cess pool of loose mores in regards to sexual practices seem to be the first to be horrified by same sex marriages. I personally don't understand. If one of the concerns with the gay community is the perceived promiscuity, why is there a problem with joining two people in a committed relationship. The very fact that the couple think enough of a church/religion ( and ultimately God) to ask the blessing of the institution that usually ignores/condemns them is a sign of deep commitment. I really don't believe love should be pulled apart into such petty pieces. -


I AGREE 100% especially with the part about the church condemning them and they still want it's blessing being a sign of deep commitment!! I couldn't have worded any of that better if I tried!!

[lynx]

One thing that keeps on coming to mind is a simple thought....

For one not to love, one can not live......


The soul is neither male nor female. The material body depicts that. The genetals are how we classify us as male or female not the soul. In marriage the two souls are joined by the power of the two's commitment to one another. Not because he has a penis and she has a vagina. Or any other way. Many get this confused. Simple solution, we are not puzzles that have to go together by the design of the body. (Meaning the sexual organs) We are but souls or spirits that find one another and commit to that person. These bodies are but the vessels at which we enhabit. Easy terms, these bodies are like the cars we drive. One thing though, you can't quite trade them off like used cars. But, wait a while. Technology is getting there.

Lynx