which solstice?

[Nantonos]

Analysis of pigs's teeth found at Durrington Walls, a ceremonial site of wooden post circles near Stonehenge on the River Avon, has shown that most pigs were less than a year old when slaughtered. [...] The existence of large numbers of bones from pigs slaughtered in December or January supports the view that our Neolithic ancestors took part in a winter solstice festival.
http://tinyurl.com/8hrt3 (http://tinyurl.com/8hrt3)

[Dave the Druid]

In light of that article I would tend to agree. Let's face it mid-winter needs a bit of dressing up all cold, damp and dreary. That said wouldn't a *celebration* be for the hoipoloy and the more serious ( in fact life sustaining) work of calendrics carry on? Let's face facts; when the living easy it's hard to get worked up about what old grey beard is on about, is it?

Picture this:

Druid: (to farmer) Come on then, the high summer celebration is about to begin.

Farmer: (eyes Druid and his field) Nothing doing! I have a field to tend. If you want to make the sun stop in it's path then go ahead, but you don't need me! I have responsibilities I do.

Druid: It only happens once a year.

Farmer: Twice

Druid: Once!

Farmer: Twice

Druid: Once.

Farmer: Right, then what do you call that thing at mid-winter?

Druid: ah, Yule?

Farmer: It's a soltice isn't it?

Druid: er, well yes...

Farmer: Then there are two! And I can give this one a miss.

[odubhain]

Analysis of pigs's teeth found at Durrington Walls, a ceremonial site of wooden post circles near Stonehenge on the River Avon, has shown that most pigs were less than a year old when slaughtered. [...] The existence of large numbers of bones from pigs slaughtered in December or January supports the view that our Neolithic ancestors took part in a winter solstice festival.
http://tinyurl.com/8hrt3 (http://tinyurl.com/8hrt3)
I read the article and think that the festival could have been in November rather than December. The age of the slaughtered pigs was marked as "less than a year" and could mean it was a Samhain celebration instead (since pigs traditionally give birth in the spring)..

Searles

[Nantonos]

I read the article and think that the festival could have been in November rather than December. The age of the slaughtered pigs was marked as "less than a year" and could mean it was a Samhain celebration instead (since pigs traditionally give birth in the spring)..

Searles

Thats an interesting point. I initially went for the 6-month option because I had it in my head that an archaeoastronomical alignment was involved (thuus the same sightline, in the opposite direction, for summer solstice sunrise gives winter solstice sunset IIRC.

I agree that a Samhain celebration would also fit the evidence. Perhaps pollen analysis would help give a season.

[ancestral_lee]

cheers for the article, very interesting. i actually like the midwinter thing better than midsummer - even more of an excuse to go there in winter. cant help but feel it would be far more atmospheric then.

as to samhain - does stonehenge mark some sort of astronomical event that occurs at samhain? i dont recall that it does so it doesnt seem likely that that it was used to mark such a festival.

as to the historical evidence of samhain- after reading Huttons 'stations of the sun' i think he makes good case for there not really being a death festival at this time. but thats a whole different argument.

[Dave the Druid]

Just one question.

How did they know that they were slaughtered in December or January? I know something of dating methods and nailing down a specific year is tough but to hit specific months is near impossible. Yes I know bones show age but again to give certain months seems to be more suggestion than definitive proof.

[ancestral_lee]

dave, if i understand what you are getting at, what they are suggesting is that knowing pigs back then farrowed in the spring and were less than a year old by thier teeth (growth lines, types of teeth and tooth size) and they may be able to get a more refined age bracket with this data, then it seems they were most likely slaughtered at around november or december. i dont think they are utilising radiometric dating here, more a guess of what time of year rather than a specific year. i would assume they knew it was neolithic and thus a rough age based upon other evidence.

[Dave the Druid]

Fair play to you ancestral_lee,

radio carbon isn't the only method of dating but you are essentially correct. I was just surprised at the months mentioned. Scientifically naming specific months doesn't work too well for me. Possible yes, but more informed guess work IMHO.

Also, most pollens would be dead come that time of year, save the conifers and they they wouldn't be in great shape either. What's hanging in the rafters?

[Nantonos]

How did they know that they were slaughtered in December or January? I know something of dating methods and nailing down a specific year is tough but to hit specific months is near impossible.

Using the same method as getting a year (ie, this is 2,347 years, 5 months and three days), yes. On the other hand, getting a season or month by a different method is entirely possible.

[Dave the Druid]

I know my methods course said that being that specific was wishfull thinking...

good dating information (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/dating/)

as much as I welcome specifics I know that for the most part they are not reasonable

[ancestral_lee]

can i ask, do you think they used dating to say the pigs were killed in nov/dec?

thats what it seems you are working on and what comes across as you are thinkng.

that isnt what theyve done. they are working on the basis that being born in spring and killed in less than a year gives a dat of around nov/dec. they are then using other dating methods to say these were killed in the neolithic - no archaeologist in thier right mind would try to date something to a particular month with conventional dating.

[Nantonos]

I know my methods course said that being that specific was wishfull thinking..

which is why I said that deducing a season was unlikely to have been done using a dating method. Did you understand my example? :huh:

[odubhain]

cheers for the article, very interesting. i actually like the midwinter thing better than midsummer - even more of an excuse to go there in winter. cant help but feel it would be far more atmospheric then.

as to samhain - does stonehenge mark some sort of astronomical event that occurs at samhain? i dont recall that it does so it doesnt seem likely that that it was used to mark such a festival.

as to the historical evidence of samhain- after reading Huttons 'stations of the sun' i think he makes good case for there not really being a death festival at this time. but thats a whole different argument.
I'm not certain about Stonehenge beingaligned specifically to either Winter Solstice or Samhain Sun/Moon risings or to other celestial events. I'll have to check my reference books.

Hutton makes some good points in his books but I don't always agree with what he has to say. As you say, regarding Samhain and it being a death festival, that's an entirely different argument. I disagree with Hutton about that if he says that it did not involve death or acknowledge death and the dead. I can think of a few Irish tales that specifically involve such things and which are set at the time of Samhain. I seem to recall a place called the Lios or the Druid's Circle that is oriented on the Sun at Samhain and has evidence of abundant cattle sacrifice. Again, I'll have to dig out the reference books to provide better cites.

Searles

[Dave the Druid]

which is why I said that deducing a season was unlikely to have been done using a dating method. Did you understand my example? :huh:

Alas no, sorry. It seemed to me as though you were soundly supporting this view.
Using the same method as getting a year (ie, this is 2,347 years, 5 months and three days), yes. On the other hand, getting a season or month by a different method is entirely possible.

Or am I mistaken?

Additionally; from a socio/acheologic point Samhain makes sense because it was the considered to be the time to thin out the livestock. I suppose that a case could have been made for keeping some animals to slaughter at the darkest part of the year but the lore doesn't match up.

[Twig]

so at 6 am with my coffee still brewing I am siting here with a vision.

That vision is of a tents set up near the henge and a farmer digging a pit.

"McTannahan! What ye be doing there?"

" Hail Dingus. giving the people a place to put the bones. You know how damned strict THEY are about the place. Besides these pigs were born out of season and it's well time I made some money on them."

"Aye, and ye just need 5 minutes to clean up the area."

My point? They are making assumtions about the entire age with 1 find. I'll wait for more evidence.

Peace,
Twig

[Dave the Druid]

Brother,
Drink your coffee :caffeine:

Again I find myself drawn into the stricter interpretation of data rather than seeing a single point in a panorama of possibility. Point taken.

[ancestral_lee]

ok, well to get some clarification i have emailed Dr Albarella direct to ask a couple of questions.

i asked how many burials have been studied - if there are several then we can safely assume this was a regular slaughter and burial event

[ancestral_lee]

ok, well to get some clarification i have emailed Dr Albarella direct to ask a couple of questions.

i asked how many burials have been studied - if there are several then we can safely assume this was a regular slaughter and burial event.

i also asked how we can tell they were under 1 year, more specifically how we can work that out from the teeth.


killing pigs under 1 year of age would be unusual as they wouldnt be all that large and it would seem more wise to let them grow a little biger for food purposes - so killing them regularly midwinter would seem more like a sacrificial occurrance.

we all know Stonehenge can mark the midsummer sunrise, but it also marks the midwinter sunset - what this pig study shows is that there was something occuring in the neolithic in the middle of winter.

so the queston is - do we have similar evidence to back up the midsummer claim - after all, it MIGHT be that its marking of the summer solstice is a by product of the midwinter marker for which ity was originally built.

[Dave the Druid]

ancestral_lee, Well done you!

I was frankly about to give up on this one. His answers should be of interest.

[ancestral_lee]

ok, well i have a had a response already which is nice :)

Dear Lee,

thanks for your email.

> are the pig teeth from a number of burials or a single burial?

the teeth are not from burials but from the enclosure ditch, pits and a midden
located within the enclosure

> how are the burials dated to the neolithic? is it the associated artifacts?

yes, and radiocarbon dates

> i know a little about using teeth in reconstructing life histories in
> hominids (from my palaeontology degree) but how can you tell the piggies were
> under 1 year at the time of slaughter?

on the basis of eruption and wear of teeth

Cheers,
Umberto


so, several burials, dated to the neolithic by conventional means - from the age of slaughter they were killed most likely in nov/dec

therefore quite likely that they killed ritually at midwinter time by neolithic peoples

[Dave the Druid]

ok, well i have a had a response already which is nice :)



so, several burials, dated to the neolithic by conventional means - from the age of slaughter they were killed most likely in nov/dec

therefore quite likely that they killed ritually at midwinter time by neolithic peoples

Good answers but I think you are making a leap there when you say "therefore quite likely that they killed ritually." What of local habitation? oh yes and the piggies thing is cute.

[ancestral_lee]

well the burials were at Durrington walls which is a large neolithic settlement - http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/stonehengeinteractivemap/sites/durrington_walls/01.html (http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/stonehengeinteractivemap/sites/durrington_walls/01.html)

as midwinter is an unusual time to slaughter anyway - food should have already been stored and pigs that young are too small for regular slaughter - a less conventional reason seems likely.

[Dave the Druid]

I can live with that explanation but just to be a comlete git lest me ask, is this the only instance found of yearling piggies being slaughtered?

[ancestral_lee]

i have emailed the guy again to ask. though i suppose it may be difficult to get such an approximate time of year for older animals - say for instance a 4 year old cow.

maybe this was the first study of its kind and will open new possibilities

[Dave the Druid]

My apologies, I realized after I posted that last bit that I was baiting you with that question.

It is good that you can ask the researcher for clarification.

[ancestral_lee]

no probs - i didnt think it was baiting. if anything awkward questions and questioning in general of this type of thing are good - especially if we can get more out of it in the long run. if it doesnt stand up to questioning then its something we can reject - if it does stand up then its something we have learned

[mothwench]

well, i read the article and i wonder why the possibility of it being a place of both midwinter and midsummer sacrifice is totally out of the question?
:huh:

[banondraig]

apparently there was no evidence found to support midsummer sacrifice. that needn't rule it out entirely, but it makes more sense to go with the winter theory, which does have supportng evidence.

also, concerning the slaughter at midwinter, it's possible the weakest animals were killed then, to preserve food for the breeding stock more likely to survive.

[Nantonos]

well, i read the article and i wonder why the possibility of it being a place of both midwinter and midsummer sacrifice is totally out of the question?
:huh:

Because journalists like to think in terms of controversy. But yes, any site with an alignement typically has two: a sunrise and a sunset at opposite ends of the year.

[mothwench]

apparently there was no evidence found to support midsummer sacrifice. that needn't rule it out entirely, but it makes more sense to go with the winter theory, which does have supportng evidence.

sorry, i meant to say midsummer festivals/events, not just sacrifice. *doh* :spinner:

[banondraig]

that's a little different. although from a devil's advocate point of view, they found the teeth in question in what was apparently a trash disposal area. it would be strange if similar activities generated trash in the winter, but no trash in the summer.

[mothwench]

hmmm... that is true... :uhhuhuh:

[Nantonos]

that's a little different. although from a devil's advocate point of view, they found the teeth in question in what was apparently a trash disposal area.
:T thats rather like saying many churches are surrounded by trash disposal areas full of dead bodies.

Placing disarticulated animal remains into trenches which demarcate a temenos or sacred area is well attested archaeologically. The practice continued into late Iron age times.

[blackroseivy]

The Late Iron Age would then bring the Celtic period well underits umberlla... fascinating! Always wonder about that continuity...! :reading: I am an apprentice here, only just leraning. I do know *something* about things, but in no very connected way. I'd love to keep coming back & learn the skinny on the latest discoveries! I hope no-one takes offence as my rather green questions! I'm here to learn for "Bandarach College of Druidry", & I just started & thus, have a long way to go!! Question: was this possible activity carried on into Celtilc times? Is it possible it might have been? I'm having a love/hate relationship with the solstices right at the moment! They move me, though - just want to approach it in the right spirit, etc. Again, just learning what that really is... Any help I will appreciate, & I'm watching this thread thoroghly fascinated to see where it will wind up going! ;)

[mothwench]

The Late Iron Age would then bring the Celtic period well underits umberlla... fascinating! Always wonder about that continuity...! :reading: I am an apprentice here, only just leraning.
but not, as far as i know, on the british isles. but i could be wrong, for all i know i'm no less "green" than you. ;)
I do know *something* about things, but in no very connected way.
:lol: hah, i know that feeling. it's just like a jigsaw puzzle isn't it? i'm trying to solve it too... good luck, anyway.
:ringaroun

[Nantonos]

The Late Iron Age would then bring the Celtic period well underits umberlla... fascinating!
Yes, certainly.

Always wonder about that continuity...!
There is plenty of evidence of continuity of use, at all periods, in Europe - neolithic to bronze age, bronze age to ironage, irona age to callo-roman or romano-british or hispano-roman of whatever.

:reading: I am an apprentice here, only just leraning. I do know *something* about things, but in no very connected way. I'd love to keep coming back & learn the skinny on the latest discoveries! I hope no-one takes offence as my rather green questions!

Better an open mind that wishes to learn than a closed one that sees no need.

Question: was this possible activity carried on into Celtilc times?
At this particular site, or in general? At this site, I don't know it very well. In general, yes, definitely; sites such as Gournay-sur-Aronde (http://arkeomaket.ifrance.com/arkeomaket/pages/photo25.html) have been extensively studied and show exactly this sort of interrment of animal remains to delimit a sacred space.

[mucgwyrt]

that's a little different. although from a devil's advocate point of view, they found the teeth in question in what was apparently a trash disposal area. it would be strange if similar activities generated trash in the winter, but no trash in the summer.
ok, I realise I'm replying to this rather late (I rarely, if ever, check the druid forum).

If you think in terms of what's available....... in the summer, you dont kill so much cattle because they're needed to nurse the little piggies.... so it's mainly fruits and veggies... which dont keep as well as cattle bones. So just because there's not evidence now, doesn't mean there wasn't to begin with.

The UK just isn't a good country for evidence of this sort to survive in :whatgives

[Moon Flower]

What has Durrington Walls (a neolithic settlement) got to do with Druidry (an iron age religion).

There are a couple of thousand years between the two. (and the bronze age)