Intolerance About Samhain

[bluecat]

How many of us live in a place where intolerance is rampant?

Here is an article reprinted from my local news paper today ...

It is word for word and paragraph for paragraph ... warts poor structure and all:

***********************************************

October 28, 2001, Page 6A

MINISTERS ADVOCATE ALTERNATIVE ACTIVITIES FOR HALLOWEEN.

Religious leaders say stay away from Satan's holiday.

by Gary Mitchell - Clovis News Journal Senior Writer

The ghosts, goblins, witches and black cats conjured up around the Halloween holiday may seem to most folks as harmless fun and mischief, but religious leaders say there's more to it than costumes, pumpkins and candy.

There's more trick than treat to what one pastor calls "Satan's holiday."

"Halloween has never been a Christian holiday, and it never will be," said Dr. Tom Rush, pastor of First Baptist Church of Clovis. "The roots of Halloween go very deep into heathenism, paganism, Satanism and the occult. And the modern expression is not any better. Halloween is the celebration of Satan at the end of October, and it always amazes me how many Christians think that Halloween is no big deal."

The Rev. Terry Bell, pastor of the First Assembly of God in Clovis, agreed about Halloween's negative character, but Christians should do more than just avoid it.

"I don't think it's harmless," he said. "I believe the Christian Church should Christianize it instead of demonize it."

Bell cited an historic occasion in church history when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door on Oct. 31, 1517, which launched the Protestant Reformation movement.

"In October, the Jewish people celebrate the Feast of the Tabernacles as part of their being liberated from the oppression of Egyptian bondage," ha said. "We should celebrate Oct. 31 as the time of liberation, as a time of the great Reformation of the church, instead of celebrating the great oppression of Satan, witches abd goblins. We need to celebrate the liberation we have in Christ. It's a happy time for Christians --- after all, Jesus conquered Satan."

The Rev. Scott Blazek, pastor of Immanuel Lutheran Church of Clovis, also said the real focus of Oct 31 should be on Christian history, not a secular or pagan holiday.

"Oct. 31, 1517 is the third most important event in world history after Columbus' discovery of the new world andthe invention of the printing press," he said. "It's the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. It was the date that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the church door with the 'hammer blow that was heard round the world.' That document stated that our faith would therefore based not on superstition, but on what the Bible said."

The Rev. John Rollinson, rector of St. James; Episcopal Church in Clovis, called the celebration of Halloween as "totally secular."

"Halloween is totally secular, and the dark side of secular," he said. "With devils and witches, it's actually advertising for Satan. It's not just make-believe. They have power and their power comes from the devil. I irge my people not to participate in it. We're praying for the Lord to protect His people all over this community."

Rush said he was opposed to Halloween for three primary reasons: its Satanic origin, scriptural objections based on Deuteronomy 18:9-14, and the spiritual opportunity it presents.

"Halloween has never been a Christian holiday, and it has no place in the life of a born-again believer in Jesus Christ," he said. "In fact, it is an abomination to God, and we should take our stand firmly against it."

According to history compiled by John Stanko, the celebration known as Halloween dates back to before the time of Christ.

In the Celtic countries Britain, Germany and France, the Druids, the priests and teachers of the Celts, set aside Oct. 31 to honor Samhain (pronounced "saw-wain"), the lord of the dead, Stanko wrote.

"At this time of the year, the crops were harvested, and it was a time of general decay,' he wrote. "The day honoring Samhain highlighted the gloom and cold of the coming season."

The Celts beleived that Samhain assembled all of the souls of the dead on Oct 31, the eve of the Celtic new year, freeing them to return to their homes, where their families were to entertain them. If they didn't find an acceptable welcome, the spirits would cast spells or cause other problems fro the living --- thus, the first form of trick or treat.

To prepare for the arrival of these spirits, the Druids built huge bonfires, sacrificing crops, animals and even humans, Stanko wrote. The fire was also used for divinations, as they studied the remains of the sacrificed animals.

During this ritual, many people wore costumes made of animal heads and skins.

When the Romans conquered teh Celts, they combined the festival of Samhain with their own festival honoring Pomona, the goddess of fruit and trees; making apples and nuts and important part of the rituals.

As time passed, despite the prevalence of Christianity, the pagan rite continued, Stanko said.

"The Irish, for example, held parades to honor Muck Olla, one of their gods," he wrote. "At the head of the parade marched a leader wearing a white robe and an animal head. Those following him asked for food to help celebrate the Oct. 31 festival, punishing farmers who refused to cooperate --- another form of trick or treat. Bonfires raged throughout Wales, Scotland, England and the rest of Europe on Oct. 31."

To counter this growing pagan rite, Pope Gregory III moved the church Feast of All Saints' Day (also known as All Hallows' Day) from May 13 to Nov. 1 in the eighth century. Oct. 31 naturally was called All Hallows' Evening --- eventually abbreviated to Halloween.

In medieval times, Satanic witches took Halloween as an opportunity to mock the Saints of the church commemorated on All Saints' Day, Stanko wrote.

"The witches supposedly flew on broomsticks and were accompanied by black cats (also believed to be a type of witch)," he wrote.

"What should be holy days," said Rollinson, "has been co-opted by the devil. Christians would do well to have nothing to do with the dark side of this holiday. We instead would suggest having All Saints' Day parties."

In fact, most churches and other organizations are hosting alternative activities to the traditional Halloween observances.

October 28, 2001, Page 6A

******************************************

[SimplyStrange]

:rolleyes:
It's people like this that take the fun out of it all...

Why can't people just live their own lives, have their own beliefs and not try to ruin or deem evil the beliefs of others...

By the by, this Satan is one crazy guy! According to so many people, he sure seems to be the cause of every human's flaws and beliefs...In fact, he's the reason all of you think the way you do, according to some...

...wow, such power this guy has. I wonder if he enjoys his reputation...maybe he's really a nice guy...Poor Satan...:rolleyes:

[Adrenaline Junkie]

Originally posted by SimplyStrange
...wow, such power this guy has. I wonder if he enjoys his reputation...maybe he's really a nice guy...Poor Satan...:rolleyes:

heheheh.

Although I don't like it, I can understand why some Fundamentalist Christians blmae everything on Satan. I just think they should wake up and smell the coffee - these things Satan does will forever be around. The darker aspects of humanity (lust, greed, etc) will never be lost. They're a part of us no matter how much they don't like it. "It's" in them too.

[SimplyStrange]

Exactly, Junkie. I understand that they blame these things on an evil power as well...but indeed, it seems people should realize that some human flaws cannot be fixed magically by refusing to "give in" to Satan. Perhaps this is why they believe him to be so powerful?? *shrugs* Either way, there are people who believe I'm going to Hell, so perhaps I'll be meeting him someday? :p

[clef0628]

I dislike people like this. Why can't they leave our hoilday alone. We don't talk about Christmas as being bad or evil. I don't even believe in Satan. I'm wearing my pentagram all this week and being proud of what I am:)

[Da Witch]

I for one am sick of hearing that everything good comes from "God" and every evil in this world comes from "The Devil". I for once would like to hear one of them take the responcibility for their own doings.

[clef0628]

I agree with you totally, Da Witch. People can make mistakes without it being the work of the devil. Or they can have a different point of view, that is also not the work of the devil. There is an old saying that goes good here and that is "That god helps those who help themselves." And I think that is true for most pagan god/dess too. They only help us if we are willing to do things for ourselves and take the responcibility for our actions.

[kittiepoetrygod]

I hate it when people refuse to think outside their own box ... especially when their box is filled with incorrect information. Really, if you're going to bash something, at least bash it, not completely wrong things associated with it.

[Athena]

yikes!...the author of that piece of...ummm...journalism (?? - lol) has been talking to folk in my community...(the bible belt of western canada)...I stop reading the newspaper here around this time of year...I get all flustered!!! *sigh*....one day the ignorance shall wash away, one day we all shall respect the beliefs of our neighbors....
with blessings and wishes of peace and tolerance...

[Stargazer_NJ]

*sighs* What other proof do we need that intolerance is alive and rampant? All this talk about 'God' and 'Devil'--how can we celebrate something that many Pagans don't believe in--i.e. the Devil? It would be nice if people could think before they speak and actually spend some time researching what they want to bash. If you're going to bash something, do it right :-p

Oh, btw, this is my first post here :)

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by bluecat
How many of us live in a place where intolerance is rampant?

Here is an article reprinted from my local news paper today ...

It is word for word and paragraph for paragraph ... warts poor structure and all:

***********************************************

October 28, 2001, Page 6A

MINISTERS ADVOCATE ALTERNATIVE ACTIVITIES FOR HALLOWEEN.

Religious leaders say stay away from Satan's holiday.

by Gary Mitchell - Clovis News Journal Senior Writer

The ghosts, goblins, witches and black cats conjured up around the Halloween holiday may seem to most folks as harmless fun and mischief, but religious leaders say there's more to it than costumes, pumpkins and candy.

There's more trick than treat to what one pastor calls "Satan's holiday."

"Halloween has never been a Christian holiday, and it never will be," said Dr. Tom Rush, pastor of First Baptist Church of Clovis. "The roots of Halloween go very deep into heathenism, paganism, Satanism and the occult. And the modern expression is not any better. Halloween is the celebration of Satan at the end of October, and it always amazes me how many Christians think that Halloween is no big deal."

The Rev. Terry Bell, pastor of the First Assembly of God in Clovis, agreed about Halloween's negative character, but Christians should do more than just avoid it.

"I don't think it's harmless," he said. "I believe the Christian Church should Christianize it instead of demonize it."

Bell cited an historic occasion in church history when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door on Oct. 31, 1517, which launched the Protestant Reformation movement.

"In October, the Jewish people celebrate the Feast of the Tabernacles as part of their being liberated from the oppression of Egyptian bondage," ha said. "We should celebrate Oct. 31 as the time of liberation, as a time of the great Reformation of the church, instead of celebrating the great oppression of Satan, witches abd goblins. We need to celebrate the liberation we have in Christ. It's a happy time for Christians --- after all, Jesus conquered Satan."

The Rev. Scott Blazek, pastor of Immanuel Lutheran Church of Clovis, also said the real focus of Oct 31 should be on Christian history, not a secular or pagan holiday.

"Oct. 31, 1517 is the third most important event in world history after Columbus' discovery of the new world andthe invention of the printing press," he said. "It's the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. It was the date that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the church door with the 'hammer blow that was heard round the world.' That document stated that our faith would therefore based not on superstition, but on what the Bible said."

The Rev. John Rollinson, rector of St. James; Episcopal Church in Clovis, called the celebration of Halloween as "totally secular."

"Halloween is totally secular, and the dark side of secular," he said. "With devils and witches, it's actually advertising for Satan. It's not just make-believe. They have power and their power comes from the devil. I irge my people not to participate in it. We're praying for the Lord to protect His people all over this community."

Rush said he was opposed to Halloween for three primary reasons: its Satanic origin, scriptural objections based on Deuteronomy 18:9-14, and the spiritual opportunity it presents.

"Halloween has never been a Christian holiday, and it has no place in the life of a born-again believer in Jesus Christ," he said. "In fact, it is an abomination to God, and we should take our stand firmly against it."

According to history compiled by John Stanko, the celebration known as Halloween dates back to before the time of Christ.

In the Celtic countries Britain, Germany and France, the Druids, the priests and teachers of the Celts, set aside Oct. 31 to honor Samhain (pronounced "saw-wain"), the lord of the dead, Stanko wrote.

"At this time of the year, the crops were harvested, and it was a time of general decay,' he wrote. "The day honoring Samhain highlighted the gloom and cold of the coming season."

The Celts beleived that Samhain assembled all of the souls of the dead on Oct 31, the eve of the Celtic new year, freeing them to return to their homes, where their families were to entertain them. If they didn't find an acceptable welcome, the spirits would cast spells or cause other problems fro the living --- thus, the first form of trick or treat.

To prepare for the arrival of these spirits, the Druids built huge bonfires, sacrificing crops, animals and even humans, Stanko wrote. The fire was also used for divinations, as they studied the remains of the sacrificed animals.

During this ritual, many people wore costumes made of animal heads and skins.

When the Romans conquered teh Celts, they combined the festival of Samhain with their own festival honoring Pomona, the goddess of fruit and trees; making apples and nuts and important part of the rituals.

As time passed, despite the prevalence of Christianity, the pagan rite continued, Stanko said.

"The Irish, for example, held parades to honor Muck Olla, one of their gods," he wrote. "At the head of the parade marched a leader wearing a white robe and an animal head. Those following him asked for food to help celebrate the Oct. 31 festival, punishing farmers who refused to cooperate --- another form of trick or treat. Bonfires raged throughout Wales, Scotland, England and the rest of Europe on Oct. 31."

To counter this growing pagan rite, Pope Gregory III moved the church Feast of All Saints' Day (also known as All Hallows' Day) from May 13 to Nov. 1 in the eighth century. Oct. 31 naturally was called All Hallows' Evening --- eventually abbreviated to Halloween.

In medieval times, Satanic witches took Halloween as an opportunity to mock the Saints of the church commemorated on All Saints' Day, Stanko wrote.

"The witches supposedly flew on broomsticks and were accompanied by black cats (also believed to be a type of witch)," he wrote.

"What should be holy days," said Rollinson, "has been co-opted by the devil. Christians would do well to have nothing to do with the dark side of this holiday. We instead would suggest having All Saints' Day parties."

In fact, most churches and other organizations are hosting alternative activities to the traditional Halloween observances.

October 28, 2001, Page 6A

******************************************

More stupid rhetoric from a fool that is one notch above braindead :ack:

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Da Witch
I for one am sick of hearing that everything good comes from "God" and every evil in this world comes from "The Devil". I for once would like to hear one of them take the responcibility for their own doings.

Xians have always been notorius for scapegoating, and justifying
their insecurities by blaming others, etc., and they have the
ability to foolishly believe that while they are busy persecuting
other people, that they are being victimized! :rolleyes:

[Sequoia]

In medieval times, Satanic witches took Halloween as an opportunity to mock the Saints of the church commemorated on All Saints' Day, Stanko wrote.

"The witches supposedly flew on broomsticks and were accompanied by black cats (also believed to be a type of witch)," he wrote.


*jumps off her roof with a broom between her legs* *flys around her neighbour's house in circles* hey guys look at me!! I'm flying around my neighbour!! I'm coveting his stuff so I'm going to cast a super-scary spell on him to make him give me his stereo!!! oooooh wuugie wuggie satan com'ere and gimmie this guy's stereo!!!

-_-; note: that was sarcasm. Jeeze, I don't even BELIVE in satan. oi. Don't they have anything better to write about? That would be like our magazine writing about how the ku klux klan has aquired three tigers and a lion, built a stadium, and is currently feeding our kind to them.

[Myst]

I'm surprised. This person has shared their opinion just as we share ours everyday. Just because we disagree doesn't mean they had no right to share it, or that we should bash their religion either.

They think we're evil, we know we're not, so what's the problem? My advice is to laugh at the ignorance, not get all angry and upset.

[bansidhe]

i agree myst, everyone has a right to state their opinion, i juss wish they would research first. for example:

In the Celtic countries Britain, Germany and France, the Druids, the priests and teachers of the Celts, set aside Oct. 31 to honor Samhain (pronounced "saw-wain"), the lord of the dead, Stanko wrote.

i personally dont hold this as true, since when was 'samhain' the lord of the dead? please correct me if im wrong, but thats the way i see it.
this might sound harsh, and no, im not a satanist, but think about it, would you rather go to church and worship and worship a god who ends up taking the free will he gave you, etc, or go with what satan represents ; the freedom to make your own choices, in the knowledge that you have to face the consequences. i really hope that doesnt come across as bashing, i actually really like much of the teachings of christianity, its juss some of the people within it that bring a bad colour on it.

again, im sorry if it comes across as bashing, but no offence is meant. i agree ss, im sick as well of people taking the fun out of a trad like halloween, be you christian, druid, wiccan, buddhist, whatever, you have (or should have) the right to celebrate what you want without people like these lecturing you. and ss, im apparently going to hell too, so i ll see ya there sweetie! ;)

*cough* i think thats my $0.03 spent. :)

[Theres]

Samhain as the Lord of the Dead? ha! that's rich! do those of us who know him well call him Sam for short?
i've come to expect this kind of bashing from the spiritually ignorant, but the good one's at least get their facts straight.
Mr. Stanko, we laugh at you, not with you.

[Danustouch]

Well..the article is surely full of lies and misunderstandings. It is a shame, because most of us just want to be understood for who we really are. Unfortunately, when a person is trying to ..."Come Out" to their coworkers, families, friends, etc..articles like this can become a huge stumbling block in that process. It is exceedingly frustrating, and painful, to have to combat these things in our lives. However, I think we need to remember, that this is just someone's opinion. It does not reflect on the ENTIRE christian religion. Every act of hatred, intolerance, ignorance, begins in the INDIVIDUAL heart, of an INDIVIDUAL person. It is NOT the fault of a religion as a whole. Each and every religion has it's ignorant few. We cannot hold a religion to blame, for the ignorance of some of its' followers.

But..i'd like to propose something here...how many of you who are so angry about this article, plan to do something about this ignorance and these misunderstandings? We can sit, and be angry all we want. But what are we doing to combat this misinformation? Could you write to the author of this article, perhaps write to the newspaper it was printed in? Hmmmmmm...

And even BEFORE this article was printed, what are you, as a pagan or wiccan or druid etc, practitioner, doing to combat the misunderstandings?

One thing my old circle did in our community, when I was living in CT, was mail out information about our religion, to the various newspapers, political offices, police departments, fire departments, schools, libraries, etc. Just so that they could have it on hand if they wanted the reference.

Unfortunately, we cannot both live in the closet, and combat intolerance at the same time. Many of us have chosen to live in the closet, because we are scared of the reactions amongst our communities, families, places of employment, etc. This is understandable. But...IMO...the best way to combat MISINFORMATION..is to provide ACCURATE information. So we need to stop whining when ever we see an article like this..and make some active decision on how best to combat it.

[bluecat]

Danustouch has a point, but I live in a community that would and has in the past take action against anyone connected to a person whom it considers an undesirable. I have family here who would be singled out and treated very poorly. My brother and his wife could lose their jobs and they would find excuses that were not connected. A person has to be very careful that actions he takes do not have an adverse affect on others.

These are the kind of folks that if you give a response they jump up on their bandwagon and tell the world and the city fathers they are being persecuted by the forces of the devil. They are good at being spin doctors and here, they rally everyone behind them. This is a small minded town that gets vindictive.

Sometimes you have to take small steps. They won't be successful in "stopping Halloween" ... not even in their own congregation, unless they are faced with the kind of opposition they are hoping for.

There is a building here that has stood empty for almost 30 years because people associated it with witchcraft. Here it is guilt by association and we take small steps. It's getting better, but making a big deal out of this, locally, would just make it worse. We are making progress, but this is the kind of self-righteous thing we are up against.

[talamh]

Very true, Danustouch. For the past 10 years, as a Circle, we have consciously worked at making accurate information available to the media, police, schools... whomever wanted it.

i know from being in newsrooms how frustrating it is to want to do an accurate story but to not be able to find anyone willing to be a "spokesperson". At the same time, stepping forward as a "spokesperson" is fraught with problems. One is.. who am i to speak for all pagans? The second is, it makes one a target.

Some of our members have worked through the Pagan Society at the local university to supply speakers to groups asking for information. There was one Grade 10 teacher who used to ask someone from the Pagan Sociaty to come to his English class each year and talk with the students about different views of the three witches in MacBeth. And while they were at it... to discuss contemporary paganism.

We have also taken a collection amongst ourselves to buy copies of the book "The Law Enforcement Guide to Wicca" by Kerr Cuhulain, Horned Owl Publishing and have it placed with carefully chosen people in the police departments and local newspaper.

It takes a little time and money, but i do believe it is important to make sure good information and good people to be interviewed are available. Othewise, how else will the general public ever be able to decide for themselves? bb talamh

[Danustouch]

agreed talamh.

Bluecat..some of this can be done, still maintaining your secrecy. You could drop off packages anonymously containing this valuable information. You need not put yourself in danger, necessarily. Besides..if you DID do something publically, and if you caught flack from it..the law is on your side. ACLU would gladly help you.

[Semele]

Though I disagree with the contents of this article...(what Pagan wouldn't?), I can clearly see that it comes from folks who are genuinly convinced that it is the truth and they need to protect freinds and loved ones from evil. So, in the right place it would have been great...like say a Christian church bulletin or magazine. That way folks who are interested in reading and believing this type of thing can find it easily. The fact that it is in a pubilc paper of a public city with elected officials annoys me. The article is clearly one-sided and appears to consist of mostly quotes, which leads me to believe that this is not a highly skilled writer. Perhaps before judging Clovis as a bunch of Halloween hating Lynch mobers, we should just assume they have a horrible writer on the staff who is not bright enough to research material and get various opinions from various sources.

[bluecat]

Danustouch, I do things like you suggest. As far as getting folks like the ACLU involved, it's easy to see that you are not familiar with places like this. They would be "vindicated" if the ACLU was called in. The ACLU and other organizations have come in here before because there is a large stone tablet on the Court House Lawn that has the Ten Commandments. The ACLU won the court battle, but guess what ... the Ten Commandments are still there.

I respect your opinion and thank you, but you are not here.

[mol]

Originally posted by Mystique


Xians have always been notorius for scapegoating, and justifying
their insecurities by blaming others, etc., and they have the
ability to foolishly believe that while they are busy persecuting
other people, that they are being victimized! :rolleyes:

Site God Mode

That is a very broad and blanketing statement, Mystique. I suggest you reconsider your wording to 'some' Christians, because not all are like that. Or, if you prefer, keep your wording but I dont want to see one more post from you griping about Other faiths intolerance of Paganism.

[LunaWitch]

That article is actually very scary. It's scary to think we live in 2001 and yet it's closer to 1692 in some places in the USA where religious freedom should be a no brainer.
I have been subject to "persecution" on a few ocassions, and one time it was actually a bit scary. (almost thought I was going to be arrested.) I was very "out of the broom closet" but now even though I will never deny my religion to anyone, I don't come rushing out with information to just anyone. It's sad, I don't live in the sticks or the backwoods, yet people act like that's where they live. I can't perform public rituals because of that type of mentality the author of that article has, and that makes me sad. The sooner people realize this sort of bashing is hurtful and counterproductive, the sooner this world would be a better place.
I could go on forever about this, but I won't. This sort of topic always gets me down.
my 2 cents.

[Myst]

Personally I would suggest if it is that bad there for you that you start planning to move.

[bluecat]

Move and let them win? Ya gotta be kiddin'! I actually enjoy being a minor irritant, just by staying here. Many of them know who I am already, I just don't want to make it any worse on my family than it can be. I am "excused" by the simple fact that I am disabled and I have always been seen as being a bit different by these folks. I mean, after all I have tattoos :D :D:D:D:D. You just have to know how to do it here.

What these people fail to see is how they would become just as the TALIBAN in Afghanistan and have a decency commission. If you read that article, you would see how easy it would be for them to do such a thing, in their own minds anyway.

[Laiste]

Ahhh, Bluecat...tough situation your in! It truly is a shame that this extreme kind of ignorance still exists! Keep on fighting in anyway you see fit to your particular situation.

[LunaWitch]

I'm pretty angry right now. I work in a print shop and I just had to make 30 copies of a brochure that basically says what that article says in the beginning of this thread. I know this guy who brought the copy in is a born again christian and he is positive that this brochure is the last dead dying word on Halloween. I have to be polite and print this stuff (freedom of speech and all), but he tried making me take a copy to read. I politely told him, sorry no thanks, that is in direct conflict with my religion. I further told him that Samhain was a holiday, and he said no its not its the god of the dead. So I could see I was in trouble. He said oh if you only knew the true origins of Halloween you wouldn't celebrate it. I said, I do know and this is a pack of lies. He said well, thats the good thing about living in America, we have the right to be a part of any religion we want without being killed. (why killed ? ...i don't know but I digress)
However, I smailed and said, "you know what? You are absolutley right. That'll be 6 bucks." :D
Do you think I handled that situation well? I feel so upset and angry I am shaking a bit. I had to share this right away, I had to vent. whew. that feels much better already.
ugh.

[Danustouch]

I think you handled it VERY well..I probably would not have been as patient, and kind. LOL. As for the "without being killed"...that would have totally creeped me out. I mean..he might be making a veiled reference to the whole Taliban thing...or something. Alot of people, I think are very aware of the dangers of extremism right now...but it would have creeped me out. I'd be more inclined to think he was trying to scare you. That's just my own suspicious mind though.

[LunaWitch]

yeah danustouch, i agree with you that the "killed" thing was odd. But I did say to him after that, you mean like those poor missionaries in Afghanistan? he barely knew what i was talking about but he finally figured it out. geez. lol hello? ya know a little thing called war? well thanks for the reply i do feel better :D

[bluecat]

Nicely done, Lunawitch.

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

Originally posted by SimplyStrange

...maybe he's really a nice guy...Poor Satan...:rolleyes:

Yeah, like on South Park ;):D;)

[kittiepoetrygod]

Originally posted by Myst
I'm surprised. This person has shared their opinion just as we share ours everyday. Just because we disagree doesn't mean they had no right to share it, or that we should bash their religion either.

They think we're evil, we know we're not, so what's the problem? My advice is to laugh at the ignorance, not get all angry and upset.

Well, they shared their opinions, all right. The problem most had was that they shared it and portrayed it as facts, and half the material was wrong. I broke it down, and i'll post my take on things here. This was written for the Non-Pagan, so bare with me for a lil while.

"There's more trick than treat to what one pastor calls "Satan's holiday"."
Some people just think outside their own box. Samhain/Halloween is the point between the fall equinox and winter solstice. Its celtic in origin, and was their first day of Winter and when the cows came home. For others, it was the final harvest of the year.

""Halloween has never been a Christian holiday, and it never will be," said Dr. Tom Rush, pastor of First Baptist Church of Clovis."

Neither was thanksgiving. Does it really matter all that much?

"The roots of Halloween go very deep into heathenism, paganism, Satanism and the occult"

Being as how heathanism is Norse in origin, and they spent most of their time farming, thats partically corect.

Yes, its routes are in Paganism. However, since it is by far pre-Christian, it can have no involvement with the archetypal embodiment of evil, as there was none before the three big Arabic religons.

Define the Occult? Tarot cards and things? Please. They're farmers. They can't afford it!

Therefore, the last two things have no validity.

"I don't think it's harmless," he said. "I believe the Christian Church should Christianize it instead of demonize it." "

Christmas, the Returning of the Purity of the Virgin mother, Easter, Michaelmas, Candlemas ect ect ... whats one more?


""We should celebrate Oct. 31 as the time of liberation, as a time of the great Reformation of the church, instead of celebrating the great oppression of Satan, witches abd goblins. "

And this is celebrated how? By dressing your kids as power rangers? And letting them eat candy?

Sigh.

"The Rev. John Rollinson, rector of St. James; Episcopal Church in Clovis, called the celebration of Halloween as "totally secular."

For some. Samhaine is in no way secular for me and several million other people in the country.

"Halloween is totally secular, and the dark side of secular," he said. "With devils and witches, it's actually advertising for Satan. It's not just make-believe. They have power and their power comes from the devil."

Wow, this came right out of a cheesy 1951 horror movie. What power? How can one advertise Satan when you AREN'T?

"Rush said he was opposed to Halloween for three primary reasons: its Satanic origin, scriptural objections based on Deuteronomy 18:9-14, and the spiritual opportunity it presents. "

No. Maybe. Yes, it persents different spiritual opertunity for Christians. If you're that afraid of losing them, your message must not be very strong.

"In the Celtic countries Britain, Germany and France, the Druids, the priests and teachers of the Celts, set aside Oct. 31 to honor Samhain (pronounced "saw-wain"), the lord of the dead, Stanko wrote. "

No. Samhain/e is pronouced Sow(rhymes with cow)-in Sew-een Sew-in, Sav-in, but never with an "ain".

There is no god Samhaine. Its a holiday. You're thinking of Mabon. This argument is futile ... look up facts. There is and never was a God named Samhain/e.

""At this time of the year, the crops were harvested, and it was a time of general decay,' he wrote. "The day honoring Samhain highlighted the gloom and cold of the coming season." "

Actually, the cows where brought home in the case of the Celts.

It highlighted the coming of Winter, which was the time when they got to go home and be with their families, and not have to sit around smelling of Cow poo.

Is that not a good thing?

"The Celts beleived that Samhain assembled all of the souls of the dead on Oct 31, the eve of the Celtic new year, freeing them to return to their homes, where their families were to entertain them."

No, the veil between this World and the next was beileved to thin, as the World slowly began to rest, and thus the representitive of nature's power, the God, also rested, and many thought he died. Thus the death aspect of it came into play.


"If they didn't find an acceptable welcome, the spirits would cast spells or cause other problems fro the living --- thus, the first form of trick or treat."

No, thats simply not true. The death aspect of it was largely because of the vast funerals held at this time, because the men folk came back, and the family was at one of the only times they were all together, and thus greiving was easier. <---Theory, don't quote me.

"To prepare for the arrival of these spirits, the Druids built huge bonfires, sacrificing crops, animals and even humans, Stanko wrote. The fire was also used for divinations, as they studied the remains of the sacrificed animals. "

There has NEVER been one recorded incident with witnesses to a Druidic sacrifice. The Fires where lit in honor of those past, and they would burn their bodies ... its awfully hard to dig through permafrost.

"In medieval times, Satanic witches took Halloween as an opportunity to mock the Saints of the church commemorated on All Saints' Day, Stanko wrote. "

Actually, all saint's day was the failed attempt to Christianise the holiday.

Thats all. Some of it was probably questionable or just as wrong as they are, but most of it is my personal opinion, and faith is based in opinion, really.

[bluecat]

kittiepoetrygod


:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[talamh]

Yeah, LunaWitch... you done good :). Who was it that said "I disagree with what you said but i will defend your right to say it"?? Patrick Henry? George Washington? Whatever. It's called freedom. And what you did is called tolerance and understanding. Applause! bb talamh

[LunaWitch]

thanks for the positive replies! now i feel happy
<happy dance>

[Myst]

Originally posted by kittiepoetrygod
Well, they shared their opinions, all right. The problem most had was that they shared it and portrayed it as facts, and half the material was wrong.


It's an editorial. Meaning people should know that it's opinions of the author, not facts.

I'm so sick of the media being blamed everytime people can't handle the simple concept of opinion.

Besides that, people pretend their opinions are fact everyday - in fact, you just did it in the rest of your post. What you posted were YOUR opinions and interpretations.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Unfortunately, we cannot both live in the closet, and combat intolerance at the same time. Many of us have chosen to live in the closet, because we are scared of the reactions amongst our communities, families, places of employment, etc. This is understandable. But...IMO...the best way to combat MISINFORMATION..is to provide ACCURATE information. So we need to stop whining when ever we see an article like this..and make some active decision on how best to combat it.

Well put.

[kittiepoetrygod]

Originally posted by Myst



It's an editorial. Meaning people should know that it's opinions of the author, not facts.

I'm so sick of the media being blamed everytime people can't handle the simple concept of opinion.

Besides that, people pretend their opinions are fact everyday - in fact, you just did it in the rest of your post. What you posted were YOUR opinions and interpretations.

People can handle the concept of opinion. What they don't like is opinon based on incorrect information, and the opinions as well as the incorrect information passed on as fact. They said Halloween was Satan's Holiday, however, evidence suggests that it is most likely that it is pre-Satan. Thus how can it be of something it predates? Saying it is might be an opinion, but it is also a mis fact.

As an example, here is an opinon: I think that I am an evil camal that drives a no-whelled car to holland from the moon everyday. Its an opinion, but does that mean that it can't be proven wrong? No. It means it can't be proven right. To me, and this is also an opinion, that editorial and the above statement are on exactly the same level.

[Myst]

Originally posted by kittiepoetrygod
People can handle the concept of opinion. What they don't like is opinon based on incorrect information, and the opinions as well as the incorrect information passed on as fact. They said Halloween was Satan's Holiday, however, evidence suggests that it is most likely that it is pre-Satan. Thus how can it be of something it predates? Saying it is might be an opinion, but it is also a mis fact.

"It is most likely pre-Satan"? Just because Satan wasn't written about in the Bible yet doesn't mean people don't believe he existed since the world began. The Bible wasn't written when God was believed to have created earth either, that doesn't mean people don't believe he did.


Originally posted by kittiepoetrygod
As an example, here is an opinon: I think that I am an evil camal that drives a no-whelled car to holland from the moon everyday. Its an opinion, but does that mean that it can't be proven wrong? No. It means it can't be proven right. To me, and this is also an opinion, that editorial and the above statement are on exactly the same level.

Were you present during the ages wherein the Celts started celebrating Samhain? Did you see them doing it? No? Then you haven't proven it existed in that form anymore then the writer of this article has proven it didn't.

Here's the point - we go on and on preaching about tolerance of our beliefs and at the same time are convinced people with different opinions are wrong. We base our beliefs on our understandings and interpretations just as this person has done. If you want to show them that to you there are deeper meanings to Samhain go right ahead, but to assume they can't share their opinions because you're afraid someone will take those opinions as fact?

[kittiepoetrygod]

Originally posted by Myst


"It is most likely pre-Satan"? Just because Satan wasn't written about in the Bible yet doesn't mean people don't believe he existed since the world began. The Bible wasn't written when God was believed to have created earth either, that doesn't mean people don't believe he did.



Were you present during the ages wherein the Celts started celebrating Samhain? Did you see them doing it? No? Then you haven't proven it existed in that form anymore then the writer of this article has proven it didn't.

Here's the point - we go on and on preaching about tolerance of our beliefs and at the same time are convinced people with different opinions are wrong. We base our beliefs on our understandings and interpretations just as this person has done. If you want to show them that to you there are deeper meanings to Samhain go right ahead, but to assume they can't share their opinions because you're afraid someone will take those opinions as fact?

There is a different in their opinion and mine, and that is the evidence backing mine and evidence that disagrees with theirs. Tomarrow i'll go through the library and get the books i'll need and write an essay for you and for them, and for everyone else on this site.

Before this thread goes to off topic.

[Myst]

Yes and there's evidence backing theirs and disagreeing with yours. Do a quick search with any popular search engine even and you'll find that too.

My point isn't whether there's evidence to support either belief; my point is that we have this thing called freedom of speech and that's what the person has used here for his editorial. He has every right to share his beliefs as you or anyone else does.

It is up to us to educate others on the true origins of Halloween; not to deny others their right to speak about their beliefs.

Meaning - great, go ahead, write an essay on it. You'll be doing the same thing this guy who wrote the editorial did. And you both have that right. It's one thing to disagree and another to suggest he shouldn't have written that all.

[Twig]

Oh people, people, people. When will they ever learn. I'm pretty sure if these white bread eating pagan bashers would care to do a little geneology research they would find that they are pan or indo-europian (sp) decent.

Now everyone sit back, think and have a GOOD laugh.

They are talking about their OWN ancestors!!!!!

"Nuff Said!"

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[bluecat]

To any who would like to write the author of the article; go ahead. But understand that when you do, you will vindicate the very people you wish to disagree with. I was simply pointing out the kind of attitudes the prevail in this country, even in the 21st Century. We are making slow progress here and know that it will take generations to get past certain attitudes and ignorance. You can quote all of the historic sources you wish, but you must understand that, in their eyes, their sources are inspired by the word of their god.

If you would notice that only one of the "pastors" was not rabid and he was sort of put on the spot. He gave a vague answer and was probably talked about by his peers for not making a strong enough statement.

These guys are great spin doctors and they would take such a letter to their pulpits and use it and abuse it for their own purposes. Giving them the extra attention only gives them more ammunition in their "holy mission" against the secular world. Then they go outside and get in their cars and spirit away to agian be part of the secular world, maybe do some Christmas shopping. or maybe go home and turn on their color TV's and dial up the 700 CLUB for more "training."

So, if you insist, go for it, but understand that you may be working against those who are making progress.

Twig is quite correct, but they often deny some of these things or say that their ancestors were mislead by "Satan."

[jwreck]

bluecat, I can relate to your community. sad thing is I live on the edge of the fourth largest city in the country. People are so narrowminded.

[Myst]

Very well spoken bluecat and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I got a good laugh from thinking about that Twig :)

[Dellit Tandannon]

wow, isn't pastor tom just full of great ideas? let's cover up an evil pagan holiday with one that we just invented! no one will ever notice, its ingenious!

[Myst]

Originally posted by Dellit Tandannon
wow, isn't pastor tom just full of great ideas? let's cover up an evil pagan holiday with one that we just invented! no one will ever notice, its ingenious!

duhhh ok george!

[Danustouch]

Rokay Rorge!

[jwreck]

Originally posted by Dellit Tandannon
wow, isn't pastor tom just full of great ideas? let's cover up an evil pagan holiday with one that we just invented! no one will ever notice, its ingenious!
Worked with Christmas.

[Lavender]

:lol:

[Rayzer]

I for one am sick of hearing that everything good comes from "God" and every evil in this world comes from "The Devil". I for once would like to hear one of them take the responcibility for their own doings.
Agreed.

[IvyWitch]

Admittedly I haven't read through the whole thread (so sue me, I'm lazy), so if someone has said this already, I'm sorry.

First of all, I really don't understand what the issue is here. When the church puts out publications having something to with Paganism the only thing we should be concerned with is misinformation. And, I'm not talking about the "witches are evil, and they're going to hell" sort of crap. I'm talking about the "Samhain is the Celtic lord of the dead" garbage. I say this all the time, but I'll say it again...

Christians have every right to think we're wrong. According to thier faith, anything that doesn't fall in line with thier beliefs is from Satan. So freaking what? I think we as Pagans should be largely unconcerned when the church says "don't celebrate Halloween". It's not like they're going door to door getting people to sign petitions to ban the holiday from being celebrated by anyone. No, articles like these are written by Christians and for Christians. Nobody other than Christians (and even then...) are going to listen to stuff like that. You think some atheist is going to read that article laden with Christian-speak and say "Holy hell the witches are out to take over the world, let's get them!"?
Ok, so this pastor would rather see the members of the congregation come to the church for a "harvest festival" instead of putting on a vampire or princess costume and asking for candy. Am I missing something? Why is this a bad thing, and why are we so upset?

Truthfully, I am really getting sick of hearing Pagans preach tolerance for other faiths, and then turn around and find anything written by Christians that says that Paganism is bad and screams intolerance. :geez: Why do we want to have the right to believe as we want, but at the same time try to turn around and stop the Christians from believing they're right and everyone else is wrong? It may be infuriating to some of us that they think that way, but how does trying to stop them from believing what they do make us any better than the guy with the 20 pound Bible screaming on your street corner? I draw the line when it comes to allowing us to practice our faith, and things like this are far from that category.

Personally I am really tired of hearing this "if it doesn't say that Wicca is a wonderful path and everyone should look into it, then it's religious intolerance" garbage.

Everybody is allowed to express an opinion as long as it doesn't infringe on another person's rights. Sorry to disappoint you, but that mean the Christians can express thier opinions too.

[Incendia]

If they're not going to celebrate Halloween because of its pagan roots, then they had better drop the rest of the holidays too! :rolleyes:

[Aelfoak]

The article is laughable!

[Sun_and_Saturn]

How many of us live in a place where intolerance is rampant?

Originally, I'm from GA, which is the Bible belt, but there were a few people in town who did fortune telling, card reading, people rumored to practice voodoo (which they DID), and there was an old black woman who could "talk the fire out" of burns (really remarkable). Most of the Christian folk in the community stayed away from these people, they were scared of them.

Now I live in Florida, and there is a fairly large pagan community, but there are a lot more people like the individuals mentioned in the article. There is a coven around here, whose name I will not give out, that has been subjected to all kinds of harassment. I know people from that coven and they are wonderful people, yet there are churches that gather on All Hallow's Eve to wish "God's wrath" on the people in that particular coven, and they tell lies about them. It's really sad to see such intolerance.

[Calen]

Well, I think they are badly misinformed.
Ah well. Like so many others have said, the only way to combat misinformation is education. Religious intolerance will only begin to wane when leaders go forth with unbiased hearts to find the truth, not just information that supports their way of thinking. In the meantime, they are hardly ruining Halloween for me. The people in my community celebrate Halloween, and I haven't encountered one trick-or-tract giverouter yet. All hail Samhain, Lord of the Dead. Oh my.

[Salanthos]

I haven't met anyone quite so intolerant as this yet... I do think the best way to negate intolerance is to make the diffrences less important. for example, in one of my classes, I ended up sitting next to a christian with...very firm beleifs. we ended up talking often during breaks (she was trying to 'save' me, but being polite about it) by the end of the class I think we understood each other better, and she understood where I was coming from. part of the reason was we didn't talk as a christian and eclectic, just two people. I think if any debate starts between opposing veiwpoints, nothing can be done, but if between people holding the veiwpoints it's easier to compromise. I'm explaining badly - between two people's veiwpoints, it is possible to listen even if not agree, but if people go into debate as a rep or opposite, both sides are too wrapped up in the i'm right mentality - thre is no room for compromise b/c both are too busy defending their position to really listen, in my opinion.

[StarCraftLia]

e

[Aidron]

This is what I'm supposed to be doing on Samhain? I'm exhausted just reading it.

Let's see, I'm supposed to worship Samhain (a.k.a Sam), the Lord of the Dead (boy, Hekate will be pissed about this...) and Satan... ride around on a broomstick, possibly harass farmers who won't give me food (cause you know, I'm too poor to afford my own and all), commit acts of great evil (well I do that the other 364 days of the year so I'm sure I can work it in), cast wicked spells (show of hands for those who want to be cursed? C'mon, I don't want to slack off on my Samhain duties) and mock Saints. How many Saints are there? Oi, that'll be a lot of mocking.

That's just too much work for me. I'll pass and be a slacker Witch.

[PoisonIvy]

I am soooo tired of all of those ignorant people who know nothing about Halloween,Samhain,All Hallows Eve,whatever ya feel the need to call it! I get a lot of crap from people in the town that I live in. They say, "You should be in a good mood,this is the time of the year where ya get to be evil.","Are ya having a party on Devils night?", "Are ya gettin' out your cauldron and Ouija board?", "Who ya puttin' a spell on this year?"

I just say, "You're right","Yes","Both and other things too", and "Prolly you,if you don't leave me alone with the dumb questions!" :smileroll

I have,however, been known to protest Christmas. :devil:

[Pesha]

What are those intolerant sillies talking about.....sheesh there is no devil. I mean really puhlease.

BB
DS.

[Trithemius]

Around here, Halloween is a flat-out blast (weather permitting). We just had our annual Pumpkinfest fall festival, which includes a haunted house and a Halloween costume parade. We also got the biggest Halloween store we've ever had this year. Usually, one of the card stores in the mall will have a small store that in the past few years has only had girls' and womens' costumes, and virtually no decorations or props, but this year, Spencer's came in from out of town and took over one of the larger stores in the mall. They've been swamped with business since they opened.

Some of the churches do preach against the evils of "Satan's high holy day," but no one pays any attention to them. Other churches have Halloween parties, and they are Halloween parties, with the costumes, decorations and scares, not some generic "fall party."

[Aidron]

What are those intolerant sillies talking about.....sheesh there is no devil. I mean really puhlease.

BB
DS.

Perhaps not for you.

[SilentDreams]

Who else found themselves laughing throughout this whole article? I swear some people are so funny. I mean, I have nothing wrong with other's believing that Halloween isn't for them, that's fine. But lines about how it's really "advertisting" for satan make it so silly to me.

Oh well, I'm doing my own thing and my kids(when I get them) will be allowed to celebrate this without any religious ties. If others still can't get their heads around that well to bad for them. I'll be eating candy all by myself then! :woot:

[charmedkisses1]

As a Christian I understand where they're coming from. It only takes one bad Halloween incident to freak everyone out (last year we had some goth kids skin a dog alive). However, I hope they realize MOST people view it as a purely fun, get-to-dressup holiday, and most pagans take it seriously and would never hurt anyone.

[Richard Henry]

Well..the article is surely full of lies and misunderstandings. It is a shame, because most of us just want to be understood for who we really are. Unfortunately, when a person is trying to ..."Come Out" to their coworkers, families, friends, etc..articles like this can become a huge stumbling block in that process. It is exceedingly frustrating, and painful, to have to combat these things in our lives. However, I think we need to remember, that this is just someone's opinion. It does not reflect on the ENTIRE christian religion. Every act of hatred, intolerance, ignorance, begins in the INDIVIDUAL heart, of an INDIVIDUAL person. It is NOT the fault of a religion as a whole. Each and every religion has it's ignorant few. We cannot hold a religion to blame, for the ignorance of some of its' followers.

But..i'd like to propose something here...how many of you who are so angry about this article, plan to do something about this ignorance and these misunderstandings? We can sit, and be angry all we want. But what are we doing to combat this misinformation? Could you write to the author of this article, perhaps write to the newspaper it was printed in? Hmmmmmm...

And even BEFORE this article was printed, what are you, as a pagan or wiccan or druid etc, practitioner, doing to combat the misunderstandings?

One thing my old circle did in our community, when I was living in CT, was mail out information about our religion, to the various newspapers, political offices, police departments, fire departments, schools, libraries, etc. Just so that they could have it on hand if they wanted the reference.

Unfortunately, we cannot both live in the closet, and combat intolerance at the same time. Many of us have chosen to live in the closet, because we are scared of the reactions amongst our communities, families, places of employment, etc. This is understandable. But...IMO...the best way to combat MISINFORMATION..is to provide ACCURATE information. So we need to stop whining when ever we see an article like this..and make some active decision on how best to combat it.

From waht I have seen of the new Church Ie the Born again church this is the opinion. and it does reflect on the christian religion. and religion as a whole. yes each and every religion has it's ignorant few. But this few are now at the top of the Christian church and use the attacks o the Pagan and other communites as a way of control It's nolonger ignorance but more of power in the same way they have clossed Stones around Britain or bulit roads right though them. They seen anything out of there box as a threat to the power they hold

[phoenixblayze]

i hate the fact that all of these people are so vehemitly opposed to halloween, when they dont even have their facts straight. if your going to make an argument, make an intelligent one. all i have to say is that the people who wrote or were quoted for this article were a bunch of idiots

[Aelfoak]

I think they need to take a leaf out of this thread and educate themselves!

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=4868

[phoenixblayze]

:woot: i loved that,

[Hærfest Leah]

Oh people, people, people. When will they ever learn. I'm pretty sure if these white bread eating pagan bashers would care to do a little geneology research they would find that they are pan or indo-europian (sp) decent.

Now everyone sit back, think and have a GOOD laugh.

They are talking about their OWN ancestors!!!!!

"Nuff Said!"

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

Hahahaha so true.


Dellit Tandannon, wow, isn't pastor tom just full of great ideas? let's cover up an evil pagan holiday with one that we just invented! no one will ever notice, its ingenious!

Double hahaha

Ok I'll play their game, makes one just want to tell them "Good get off our holiday, we'll just change the name back, run nude thru the streets screaming evil spells since you won't be around" I meant its what we're going to do anyways right.