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Silverwitch
March 15th, 2001, 08:59 PM
I have been trying to sleep for the last hour, but thoughts keep buzzing around, and sleep won't come. So, best get them out of my head and into the community, because I "know" that's where they have to go.

I keep thinking about Tempest and that leads on to some very dark thoughts. I have also been "hearing" the desperation in some of the voices in the community, and I started wondering why one commits suicide and another doesn't. It seems to be tied up with self-esteem and faith in yourself. I think this is why our youngsters are so vunerable to this. It's a time when you are just finding out about self-esteem, and there doesn't seem to be much of it about!

This is going to be a bit long winded, but I want to get my thoughts down accurately, in the hope that it may help someone else. Besides the oral word is so open to misinterpretation!

My Mother committed suicide after being a life long sufferer of depression. I thought for a very long time that I would "inherit" this suicidal tendency, and so in a way, as always happens, my worst fears came true. After a series of life shattering events in close proximity I had a complete break down. I'd fallen off the roundabout in a big way, unable even to communicate, wash myself and utterly terrified of everything and everyone. I eventually took my car, drove it to the woods and stopped with the front wheels hanging over a 100ft drop. Decision time. The radio must have been playing because as I sat there, utterly convinced that the world would be a better place without me in it, the words of the song that was playing filtered through to me. "One day at a time, Sweet Jesus, that's all I'm asking of You". (Yes, I know it's a Christian song, but I was in no fit state to be picky). Right there and then I had an epiphany, a light bulb moment, a conversion on the road to Damascus, call it what you will. I survived, got better after a long, long time, and with hindsight, I think it was the best thing that ever happened to me. That probably sounds crazy, but I changed almost over night, to such a degree, that I used to get a shock if I looked in the mirror and saw the same face that had always been there.

Although I continued to suffer from depression (and still do have flashes of the Dark Night of the Soul), that experience led me to learn everything I could about depression, which led to Psychology and twas but a short step to Paganism.

I learnt that we cause our own depression, and, if that is our choice, our suicide. No one can "make you" depressed or suicidal, you have to "allow" yourself to be in those states. You always, always have a choice about these things, even if you don't know it. This obviously isn't done on a concious level, who'd deliberately want to inflict that sort of living hell on themselves! So, it's a subconcious thing, almost a
learned response. So, if you "reprogramme" the subconcious, you can get it to do what YOU want, not react to some outmoded "programme" that you've carried with you since the year dot, but were unaware of.

A typical learned response is the "All or Nothing" response, when you get into the habit of telling yourself lies, you know the ones I mean. "This always happens to me!" or "I'm always so clumsy,(ugly,bad,unloveable!)(choose any of the aforementioned)" or "everybody hates me" and any one of a thousand others. This response is often learnt in our teens, but instead of dropping it as outmoded thinking as we grow, we carry it forward with us, sometimes through the whole of our lives. Everytime you catch yourself (or your children) saying anything like this. Stop!! Examine the statement and then decide whether it's true or not. "Actually, if I'm honest, this doesn't always happen to me". "If I'm honest, I'm not always so clumsy, (ugly, bad, unloveable), look at that time I managed to juggle four cups without breaking them". I think you get the idea.
Don't get me wrong, it's hard work, and something that you constantly have to be on guard against, but you can do it, and it does work.

Even this simple step would make such a difference to people who are bullied and victimised, as it increases self-esteem in leaps and bounds, and our children need all the self-esteem we can give then if they are to survive in what can be a very harsh world. With renewed self-esteem, comes confidence and faith in yourself. Once you have faith in yourself, you can then begin to love, yourself and others, including the Gods and Goddess's.

If you are worried that your child is being bullied, or having a hard time, or maybe you are, get a copy of "You Can Heal Your Life", by Louise Hay, who explores some of the ideas here, in an easily accessible form, because as much as we hate bullies and thugs, you can't change other people, only yourself, and your attitude to them.

Perhaps this thread shoud be about our "All or Nothing" thinking. Anyone got any good ones?

That's it, it's off my chest. Thanks for listening.

bluecat
March 15th, 2001, 09:13 PM
I'll not say that I never contemplated suicide, but in my way of belief, if you commit suicide you've gotta come back for the lesson you didn't learn or the task you didn't do. I understand that there are things that may lead a person to taking their own life such as extreme pain related to a prolonged illness, but the thought of going through it all again is not desirable.

Besides, I'm doing my part to piss off the Xian right!

BlueCat

Dextra
March 15th, 2001, 10:31 PM
I'm not in total disagreement with you, Silverwitch, most depression is just the state of mind one can put themselves in and can get themselves out of. But there are cases to the contrary.

I've suffered from manic depression due to a chemical imbalance for many years. I was on several different prescriptions for it. Only a couple actually worked, but left me with nasty side effects. The last one kept me very docile, but then again, someone could have set me on fire and I wouldn't have known it. I was that much of a zombie. So I quit taking it. My doctors had me on that for a month before my kids were born because of the high risk of post-partum depression. I suffered through it, but I got through it and nobody got hurt.

My choice of paganism as my religion has taught me that I can be an active participant in my life. Instead of sitting on my duff whining "Why me?" I can DO something about it. It has taught me self-control, when years ago I had little to none. Instead of lying in bed for a week because I feel like life's just not worth living, I'll take an hour or two and meditate on what's really troubling me, and usually come up with a feasible solution. And instead of throwing my Whopper across the counter at the idiot who put extra onions instead of no onions on it and throwing a fit a 3 year old would be envious of, I just calmly ask them to fix it.

I also try to remember to take my vitamins and I've been taking St. John's Wort 3 times a day (no weird side effects). That seems to help more than the stuff the docs prescribed.

Of course, I still have my moments. I went into a complete tizzy over my phone bill the other night and made quite a mess of my kitchen and cried for a couple of hours. I felt better the next morning though.

As far as the suicide thing goes, well, I contemplated it more than once, and almost succeeded the only time I actually tried. I took a handfull of my grandmother's nitroglycerin pills. Lucky for me, a couple of friends rushed me to the hospital and I had my stomach pumped. By the time I got home I was wondering what the hell I was thinking. That was almost ten years ago, but I know I'll never be trying that again.

Depression can be a disease, not just a state of mind. It's almost like a demon (so to speak) that can sneak up on you and take the joy out of some of your finest moments. I know. I've been there most of my life.

Kalima
March 16th, 2001, 05:45 AM
There's also an interesting sub-context of suicide in our society...
Due to Christianity's influence, suicide is shame and a weakness - too often have I heard the stupid or just plain insesnitive/self-interested say 'Suicide is the most selfish act'...
If you look at societies like the ancient Greeks, suicide was an honourable thing, not a violation of life.

I'm still not suer where I personally stand on this whole issue ... that whole coming back thing doesn't do it for me, but what if part of your life plan was to commit suicide, this incarnation? And I'm still fighting off the conditioning of thinking of it as a secretive, shameful act...

Ayla
March 16th, 2001, 06:05 AM
Thank you.

A little over two weeks ago a friend of mine from my own website's community took her own life. She was 18 years old when she chose to die on a deserted irish beach after cutting her wrists.
Suicide is something I've been examining in much detail recently.

Love & Hugs,
http://ayla.brinkster.net/ayla/images/signatureT.gif

Dextra
March 16th, 2001, 08:15 PM
My condolences on the loss of your friend. I know that's a difficult thing to deal with.

Mariposa De La Luna
March 16th, 2001, 10:56 PM
I don't know where I read it but there is a strong link between bullying and depression leading these children to kill themselves or others. They just can't take it anymore and they go over the edge.

I too seem to be bi-polar. There was I point I was very bad but it seems to be due to the Norplant that I had after my first daughter, I didn't even know what I was doing. Three months later I felt alot better but it was a long road to recovery. Several years ago I broke down and went to the psychologist. They told me I had a chemical imbalance and I was bi-polar and gave me some seriouse medicine. It made me numb, can you imagine living and being neither happy or sad? I couldn't take it, I would rather live with my mood swings.IMHO life isn't worth living if you're just going through the motions.

Paganism has helped me see that I can take control of myself and choose to be what I want. I think if you believe too much in a chemical imbalance just because a doctor says so you're accepting something you think you can't change. I think you can change whatever you want either through meditation, biofeedback, magick, deprogramming or something else. St John's Wort is a great natural way to get starting on the healing path. But my train of thought has derailed and I forgot where I was going. :(

I had an epiphany one day while watching Oprah. I know, I know but honestly I don't normally watch talk shows even though she sometimes has good ones. I don't worship the ground she walks on unlike some other SAHMs. Dr. Phil was on and he said "You teach people how to treat you." Wow is he so right! It became so clear to me. I think it may also apply with how you deal with yourself. You accept what others have said about you and treat yourself accordingly. We need to teach our children not to rely on what others think but to think for themselves and how they feel about themselves and to love who they are the way they are. To teach that you also have to be more accepting, as a parent, of who they are and supporting that and not being too critical of them. I will admit I'm not a perfect parent even though I stand on the soapbox but I do believe we as Pagans are raising some of the strongest, most confident children today. Now I must climb off of the box for my son needs me. Maybe I'll add more later.

Silverwitch
March 17th, 2001, 11:07 AM
Thanks for all your comments. It seems that every one has lots to say on this.

Dextra, I agree with the chemical imbalance thing. I'm constantly being told that I have it, and probably inherited it from my Mother. My sister suffers as does one of my sons. However, even if this is true, there is still so much we can do to help ourselves, and our children. Our minds are very powerful tools, which can overcome even the most dire of problems, if we know how. Mind you, when I'm in a blue funk, I find it very difficult to do!

My faith and practise of it have been a huge help in overcoming my problems, and are something which NO-ONE can take from me. They help me live what is a difficult life, and are a solace through the storms. Whilst not wanting to indoctrinate my family or others, I can pass on things which have helped me.

I'm not sure about the "coming back again to learn lessons not dealt with" Bluecat, as I still think free will applies, but I can see where your coming from. However, I do believe that you get back what you put out, so maybe there's a link there somewhere.

Ayla, I'm saddened by the news of your friend. Anyone who has been there, or nearly there must feel that pain.

I

Niamh
March 17th, 2001, 12:45 PM
Depression is a difficult thing to deal with. I have a friend who moved back in with her parents after a difficult battle with depression... the battle is still ongoing, but it looks like the worst is behind her. All I can do is try in my own way to help and ask what I can do for her, and she seems to be extremely happy with that!

Silverwitch
March 17th, 2001, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Niamh
Depression is a difficult thing to deal with. I have a friend who moved back in with her parents after a difficult battle with depression... the battle is still ongoing, but it looks like the worst is behind her. All I can do is try in my own way to help and ask what I can do for her, and she seems to be extremely happy with that!

Support is one of the greatest gifts we can give anyone.
It provides the vital rock in the dreadful stormy sea of depression. You can't give more Niamh