Paganism and Christianity

[LadyCelt]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me a bit about Constantine and his role and how/if he incorporated paganism into catholocism. I have heard Catholocism is farily pagan and derrived a lot from it. I've heard many Saints are figures in paganism. I've also seen something similar to the Star of David too.

And, I am pretty sure christmas copied things from yule. Even mistletoe and holly. What was on the trees, apples? I've heard Easter was a pgan holiday too and eggs are a pagan symbol that is used. And, are bunnies big in some way? There's some biblical book (I think left out of Bible) where I"ve seen paints about it involving rabbits. I've seen candle displays for Advent too and I wonder if those candles and/or holiday is a pagan thing.

Also, is holy water used for anything? Same with some type of annointing oil. I htink myrr and frankinsense is used in aromatherapy or incents type things but not sure.

Also were there "gothic" churches taht weren't Christian, and maybe are they used for Christian services now?

I also think the butterfly is a christian symbol of rising to heaven (maybe JEsus's crucifxion.) does this have anything to do with psyche?


I've also heard many symbols that were pagan are used in Christianity. I think the triqueta (think what its called but trinity or celtic know) became a symbol for the holy trinity.


Someone on another forum I'm on mentioned soemhting too. Praying to saints and God and etc is like a portection spell in a way. I see similarities.


I really hope I didn't offend anyone with what I've typed, I'm just interested in learning the similarities.

[Etoile]

I'm no scholar, but I believe by the time gothic architecture came about in the mid to late medieval period (around the 12th century I think), Christianity was pretty much the religion in those areas. In fact, the man considered to be the creator of the Gothic style was Abbot Suger, a Christian.

[LadyCelt]

I meant wren't there some things that wre hcurches but not Chrsitian? They were built like churches in christianity but weren't. I could be wrong too.

[Etoile]

There are buildings that weren't originally churches that are used as churches now. In Italy, for example, there are temples that are now used as churches. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean something specifically gothic?

[LadyCelt]

I guess I mean both, don't know. I'm kinda confused too.

but, I also mean there being buildings used as churches that were once something else

[mothwench]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me a bit about Constantine and his role and how/if he incorporated paganism into catholocism. I have heard Catholocism is farily pagan and derrived a lot from it. I've heard many Saints are figures in paganism. I've also seen something similar to the Star of David too.
oy, this is the place to ask simple questions. ;) you might be better off asking in the history forum. one thing i can tell you though, is that catholicism is big on idolatry (iconolatry), which is decidedly pagan, according to the bible.
And, I am pretty sure christmas copied things from yule.
most definately. Even mistletoe and holly. maybe. What was on the trees, apples? i'm not sure, and i've heard different things about the concept of the christmas tree being a "christianised yule tree". i don't think they brought trees into their homes like we do today. maybe they decorated the ones outside, maybe they brought branches indoors. as for which kind of decoration they might have used i have no idea. you might find out a little bit if you look up wassailing, but i'm not sure. I've heard Easter was a pgan holiday too according to bede, an anglo-saxon monk, ostara was a germanic goddess that brought in spring, and gave her name to the festival. there is some doubt as to her existance because she isn't actually mentioned in the norse myths. but on the other hand there is no reason why bede, a christian would just make her up. and eggs are a pagan symbol that is used. And, are bunnies big in some way? no idea. never heard that they were, but they could well be. There's some biblical book (I think left out of Bible) where I"ve seen paints about it involving rabbits. I've seen candle displays for Advent too and I wonder if those candles and/or holiday is a pagan thing.
what do you mean by paints about it involving rabbits. i must admit i wondered about the advent calendar just last christmas... i didn't find anything remotely pagan related on it, unfortunately.

Also, is holy water used for anything? *hisses* ;) dunno. Same with some type of annointing oil. I htink myrr and frankinsense is used in aromatherapy or incents type things but not sure.
loads of annointing stuff. also all kinds of body paint and tattooes with stuff like ochre, iron pigments, woad... but aromatherapy is pretty much a new phenomenon. i reckon that incense was used to invoke deities and to alter the state of mind.
Also were there "gothic" churches taht weren't Christian, and maybe are they used for Christian services now?
what do you mean by gothic? gothic architectural style, like the cologne cathedral, or gothic as in east germanic tribes that moved on out to italy and spain? :huh:

I also think the butterfly is a christian symbol of rising to heaven (maybe JEsus's crucifxion.) does this have anything to do with psyche? yes i've heard butterflies are an attribute of psyche. then there was a butterfly/bee goddess of neolithic europe, apparently. but i don't know about the christian symbology.


I've also heard many symbols that were pagan are used in Christianity. I think the triqueta (think what its called but trinity or celtic know) became a symbol for the holy trinity.
whirligig. :) triskele. or similar. i don't know much about them.


Someone on another forum I'm on mentioned soemhting too. Praying to saints and God and etc is like a portection spell in a way. I see similarities.
yeah, i would agree. :uhhuhuh:

[mothwench]

I guess I mean both, don't know. I'm kinda confused too.

but, I also mean there being buildings used as churches that were once something else
oh, okay. actually, there is a grave just under the cologne cathedral (gothic architecture, which has absolutely nothing to do with gothic peoples) of a frankish princess, and some speculation as to wheather she was pagan or christian.

i'm curious though, why did you ask about gothic churches, of all things? :huh:

[Toby Stimpson]

If emmory serves...and I just took a very basic ancient history class in my last yera of grade 12...when the Roman Empire fell in around 450...I'll say 450 because I dont have an exact date, Christianity had already been the main religion. Constantine the Great had founded the Eastern portion of the Roman Empire that was to become the Byzantine Empire. He founded Orthodox Christianity while the Pope in Rome still controlled Roman Catholicism. When the western portion fell, and several of the smaller 'Barbarian' tribes began carving up europe, the in thing was to proclaim yourself a Christian in order to gain support from the Roman legions. If memory serves, Clovis I of the Franks was somewhat in and out, and soem say he never became a full Christian. The same is in England where some of the country dwellers remained pagan right up until the dawn of the middle Medieval age. Now as to the different symbols you raised, a LOT of things in Christianity are actually reused themes. In Rome when the cult was competing with other flegdling groups like the followers of Mithras, Isis and also the main Roman cults, shared many symbols. As for the Gothic style...the Gothic style came into prominance around the 12th to 14th century and replaces Romanesque. It was generally more elongated, and a greater emphasis was placed on the use of natural light. i studied a little of this in my one class, it was interesting. You can always know a Gothic style becasue of its use of a Latin cross floor plan and also suppots on the outside known as flying buttresses, and they generally look like arches going up into the building's outer walls. Hope that soemwhat helped your question :). Namaste

Tobias

[TYRRHENUS]

Hello LadyCelt.
Constantine's role: A lot of people don't know this but Constantine was hardly pagan to begin with. His mother was Christian and his father a devotee of Sol Invictus. Many today consider the latter to be pagan, why I don't know. Perhaps because it is non-Christian. At any rate Roman pagans, what few were left by this time, did not think of it as such. Constantine also had 2 Christian revelations prior to the battle of the Milvian Bridge.
Don't think of it as the Church incorporating paganism via ritual. Rituals are merely outward expressions of spirituality. That the Catholic Church maintains ancient rituals only shows that it is an ancient institution. By the time of Constantine there were no prayer-books instructing new converts on how to pray to their god. So they did what they were familiar with.
Saints: A lot of people say the saints are pagan deities in disguise. I don't know. More often than not we know where their bones are at rest.
Holidays: Just as early Christians brought many old practices into the faith they did the same with holidays. As for Christmas, I believe the birth of Mithra was also placed at the 25th of December. I don't know if that rules out Yule or not.
Gothic style: I guess you mean, have Christians taken over places of worship from the pagans? I don't know, I think it's more like early Christians went to the same places to worship where their parents went.
Trinity: There is a concept within late Greek philosophy, to which Tertullian and John Chrysostom both subscribed, expressed in the Latin word trinitas - which means "three substances in one form." There is also the Dadophori - the torch-bearers in Mithraic art which, with Mithra himself, formed a trinity. Either or both of these may have been the basis of the Christian trinity.

Galadraal, the Western Empire stopped being an entity, by order of Justinian (Romulus Augustulus), on September 4th 476. Actual political power in the west ceased to be of any consequence with the Visigoth and Hun invasions. The Eastern Empire, the Byzantines, continued until 1453.
If we begin with the founding of the Republic in 509 BC we could say "Rome" lasted 1,962 years. That's if we don't count the early monarchy, or view the Papacy as the rightful continuance, or worry that the ideals of Rome still reside in our unconscious minds, etc, etc. Not bad I'd say.

[LadyCelt]

I asked about gothic churches just to know. I've hard catacombs had what was probalby undergorund churches there back when Christianity was dangerous and people were killed for it I've also heard chrsitians were accused of cannibalism with their communion.



Also, who exactly was Lilith and her story and did she really exist? could she be the "queen of the damned" as I've heard her referred to the queen of Hell. From what I understand, she was the first woman but refused to be subserviant to Adam.


I've also heard of something I think called the rosys corss. It has four colors what is it?


By paintings iwtyh that book (I think it was Esther) I meant I saw a magazine I have that included that painting wit an aricle, so it may not be related. I've heard there's a book of Esther as well as gosepl of Mary magdelen. I feel maybe it was to suppress women seeming good and having power but could be wrong.



Thanks for help so far everyone.

[equinox2]

an easy and fun way to learn about how Christianity developed is from these college classes on tape (though they have very little on the specific questions you asked):

http://www.teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=6577&d=From+Jesus+to+Constantine%3A+A+History+of+Early+Christianity (http://www.teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=6577&d=From+Jesus+to+Constantine%3A+A+History+of+Early+Christianity)

They are just $35, and are taught by a world expert on the history of Christianity. They aren't preachy or anything, in fact I think all Pagans (and Christians) should listen to this course on tape (yes I'm a pagan). :graduate:

For specific answers, yes, many of the holidays were "Christianized" from Pagan holidays. For instance, Easter (as you mentioned - bunnies and eggs are symbols of fertility, the fertility of the awakening earth, plus Ostara is placed in the east position on the wheel of the year - hence it's name). Litha (the summer solstice) became "St. John's Birthday". The Christians had picked dec25 for Christmas to conincide with Mithra's birthday in rome (Saturnalia), but when Christianity spread to Europe, the traditions from Yule were incorporated into Christmas. There are a lot of other "borrowings", and many of them depend on how you define "paganism". After all, there was no Wicca back then, but some practices that are now Wiccan.

Take care-