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~Macha~
July 6th, 2005, 04:29 PM
The group I belong to has a few Dianics in it, and we get together and do things sometimes. A new woman joined the group, and has asked to join the other Dianics and I in the rituals we do. We have no problem with it, except for one concern... she was not born a she. Could the residual masculine energy taint the rituals we do? She has come to them, and only observed out of fear of "messing the energy up". We would love to have her in our circles, and think that this love for her would nulify any "residuals" that might "mess things up".
Bascially, this is all coming from one member who holds fast to the "women-born-women only" idea. However, I and the other girls, see no problem because she is a she... so... opinions ladies?

Mithrea
July 6th, 2005, 06:05 PM
Wow. I was almost afraid to read because I figured it was someone coming to challenge me again :-P

Until recently, I had a woman born woman rule too. But I have several male friends that are gay and it occurred to me one day that it was very odd that they would be Goddess followers since so many gay men I know are grossed out by women and anti-woman in alot of ways, etc. I'm speaking of *the gay men I know* so no one flame me, please :)

At any rate, it got me thinking about it and I realized that for some of them, the issue was that they had even less masculine type energy than I do. We all have more than just masculine and feminine energy. We are much more complex than that. I think it's no more likely that she will upset the balance than any other woman. I know some women who are Dianic and very "butch" and it all still works out.

The only problem I see is that if someone in your circle is against it, *they* will upset the energy, and heck, their attitude might be affecting it already. You need to abide by the coven rules in order to decide what to do, but I think her fears may be unfounded. You won't know unless you try. Nothing is set in stone or undoable. I would allow her to participate and see what happens :)

Good Luck :hugz: And tell us how it works out :)

MoonDust
July 6th, 2005, 06:16 PM
Born a woman or not she is now in fact a She. She has done everything that was asked of her to become female (a lot is asked). She has done it all because in her heart she is a woman. So I would see no problem with her wanting to join. Covens do have their own rules though.
As for any "male" energy tainting/messing things up think of it this way: this person had/felt so much female energy within them that they felt the need to make a very drastic change to their bodies so that it reflected how they felt. Where would their "residual male energy" be?

Pandoras
July 6th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Personally, I prefer the woman-born rule because being a woman is more than just biology. Growing up, boys and girls are socialized differently and there are psychological factors involved. I think the energy in your group will change (although not necessarily in a negative way).

However, this is your group we're talking about and most coven members don't have a problem with it so I completely agree with...


You need to abide by the coven rules in order to decide what to do, but I think her fears may be unfounded. You won't know unless you try. Nothing is set in stone or undoable. I would allow her to participate and see what happens.

Mithrea
July 7th, 2005, 11:32 AM
You are exactly right Pandoras. That's why I have always preferred woman born women. I have just met some men recently who aren't even transgendered but still have experiences that are more similar to my own than to what we think of as typically male. I think when people perceive themselves as female, society treats them differently in accordance, whether they like it or not, or know it or not. Of course, this is all conjecture and I think the bottom line is that while we can have "guidelines" we should always look at people as individuals first. :)

~Macha~
July 7th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Born a woman or not she is now in fact a She. She has done everything that was asked of her to become female (a lot is asked). She has done it all because in her heart she is a woman. So I would see no problem with her wanting to join. Covens do have their own rules though.
As for any "male" energy tainting/messing things up think of it this way: this person had/felt so much female energy within them that they felt the need to make a very drastic change to their bodies so that it reflected how they felt. Where would their "residual male energy" be?

That's my question too... but I think this woman has been listening to our miltant Fem. Witch too much. The one who is protesting is on the verge of being asked to leave anyway (long story, not sharing).
And I don't really think we are a coven, but perhaps we are.

MoonDust
July 7th, 2005, 04:30 PM
well if it's just like a group thing then it should be done democratically IMO. Have a vote. and if you're gonna kick the other girl out then her say really shouldn't carry too much weight.

~Macha~
July 8th, 2005, 12:37 AM
aye... but we are trying to be democratic and trying to fairly decide if the militant one should be asked to leave (again, long story)
thank you all for your opinions, i will bring them up at our next meeting

Loopaleigh
July 8th, 2005, 01:36 AM
I'm not Dianic, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth anyway.

I don't think it's so much her "energies" that is going to "mess things up", as much as it might be difficult for her to relate to the other women in the group.

After all she was brought up a boy and socialized as a boy.....everyone else was brought as a girl and socialized as a girl.....the experiences are going to be different.

Even though I agree with Pandoras that there is more to being female than biology....I also think biology DOES play a part in experiences....menses, pregnancy, menopause....they might be biological, but they do go along with the "female" experience, and I think somewhat the physical experiences of being female do go along with the psychological.

She might be female now...but that doesn't mean she really "knows" what it's like to be a woman. I just think she might feel alittle weird when everybody starts talking about what kind of tampon they use or breast feeding.....topics than can clear a room of men faster than you can say "let's go to the Opera".

I also find it interesting to note that she has already caused conflict in your group, and she hasn't even joined yet....I am sure she did not intend for that to happen, but it has.

In the end though, I would go with majority rules......if most everyone in the group is cool with her joining, then go for it....let us know how it turns out.

~Macha~
July 8th, 2005, 10:29 AM
I don't think it's so much her "energies" that is going to "mess things up", as much as it might be difficult for her to relate to the other women in the group.

After all she was brought up a boy and socialized as a boy.....everyone else was brought as a girl and socialized as a girl.....the experiences are going to be different.

She might be female now...but that doesn't mean she really "knows" what it's like to be a woman. I just think she might feel alittle weird when everybody starts talking about what kind of tampon they use or breast feeding.....topics than can clear a room of men faster than you can say "let's go to the Opera".

I also find it interesting to note that she has already caused conflict in your group, and she hasn't even joined yet....I am sure she did not intend for that to happen, but it has.


Well, she has 6 sisters so she has some sort of grasp of what it is to be a girl... but I see your point. However, when those topics do come up, she makes comments about what her sisters use(d) and it includes her in the conversation. But usually, she seems to hold her own and be fine.
And I think the conflict is about her, but she didn't cause it. Arguments can be about a person, but the person doesn't have to be directly involved in the argument... but that is just me...

Loopaleigh
July 8th, 2005, 02:24 PM
And I think the conflict is about her, but she didn't cause it. Arguments can be about a person, but the person doesn't have to be directly involved in the argument... but that is just me...

So true...and alot of times the person doesn't even know other people are fighting about them....which is sad 'cause she's just trying to make a niche for herself.

I hope it works out. It's a really tough decision to make.