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Thread: A Dangerous Development in the Alien Experience

  1. #71
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    OK, so I went back through this whole thread. I am sorry for your friend and I hope she feels better whatever may be bothering her. There have been many times in history that people were accused of being crazy because other people couldn't see the truth.

    I am kind of surprised that on a forum where people talk freely of faires, elves, dragons and all sorts of other creatures, aliens are taboo and somehow make the poster or her friend crazy. There is a reason I picked fairies and elves. Look at the different myths about little people, these myths are all over the world. There is a lot in common with the stories about aliens.

    As for the walkins, I have never heard of them. I know that if someone sustains a severe enough brain injury this can result in a drastic change in personality. We don't know exactly where something like 'personality' or 'soul' or a lot of other terms we could use, we don't know exactly where they are, in the brain or elsewhere. It could be explainable in some cases, or not, we can't explain enough about the brain, we can explain the changes, but we can't explain the soul or where the persoanlity is located.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derestanne
    Academia and Official Psychology has been consistently hostile toward the experiencers.
    Actually, it's the scientific method that's hostile toward the experiencers, though not through any conscious means. It just doesn't hold its own weight when studied that way.

    Today however, attitudes in the Scientific and Therapeutic Community are being redefined by the reality and the sheer magnetude of the Alien Influence.
    If this were true, cognitive psychologists everywhere would be salivating at the opportunity to see the effects in action. As it stands, there is a method for creating false memories in the laboratory (nothing shocking, just thinking you saw a word that you didn't) and some people are more likely to create the false memory than others. I'll give you two guesses as to where the experiencers fall on that spectrum.

    Georgia Crocker, a Hypnotherapist in Baton Rouge, LA states on her website, "In America today there are more than 2 million people who have been abducted by extra-terrestrial beings. Not only do these people suffer from terror of the abduction experience, but they are afraid of ridicule and harrassment from society if their experience becomes known. Regressive hypnosis can help uncover what happened and perhaps explain why, lessening the burden of not knowing.
    The problems with hypnosis have already been touched upon, but I'll cite something for you if you'd like further details:

    Scoboria, A.; Mazzoni, G.; Kirsch, I.; Milling, L. (2002). Immediate and persisting effects of misleading questions and hypnosis on memory reports. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied, 8, 26-32.

    The worst part is that a person can develop a false memory and be incredibly confident that it's true. It's a situation that's guaranteed to lead to hurt feelings.

    Does this mean all alien memories are false? Heck if I know, but it's an uphill battle for anyone trying to claim to the contrary.

    Now if you want to talk about Bud Hopkins, Dr. Roger K. Leir, Deborah Lindemann, C.H.T. or any of the other professionals dedicated to supporting the abductees and experiencers while advancing both science and society I'll be happy to do that.
    Are any of them NOT using or referring to any form of hypnosis?
    I have no signature. You're imagining this.

  3. #73
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    All right. Here's what I don't get. How is it that a species that has mastered interstellar travel has medical technology about on par with (or even inferior to) our own? Why do they need to disect somebody to see what's inside? Don't they have MRI, ultrasound, or even a crummy x-ray machine? Why are they so bad at blanking our memories? A simple dose of chloroform properly applied will pretty much guarantee the patient won't remember a damn thing, hypnosis or no hypnosis. We've alreay got the technology to install a tracking or ID device in the body through a simple injection, yet these technologically superior beings have to use major surgery to do the same? Yet their devices are cunning enough to evade all forms of detection?
    Last edited by Valnorran; February 23rd, 2006 at 10:21 AM.
    "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgement." -- Cora Munroe in Last of the Mohicans

    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Conan the Barbarian in "Tower of the Elephant" by Robert E. Howard

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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldora_avalon
    There is a reason I picked fairies and elves. Look at the different myths about little people, these myths are all over the world. There is a lot in common with the stories about aliens.
    Skeptics have also mentioned this. There are three possibilities: either we are now mistaking elves and fairies for aliens, we were mistaking aliens for elves and fairies, or it's all in our heads.
    "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgement." -- Cora Munroe in Last of the Mohicans

    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Conan the Barbarian in "Tower of the Elephant" by Robert E. Howard

    "Moral outrage has little effect on a cat." -- Garrison Keillor

    "There aren't many problems than can't be fixed
    with $700 and a .30-06." -- Jeff Cooper. Or maybe it was his daughter Lindy. I can't remember.

  5. #75
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    I think it is time for me to wrap this up and move on. To me, this Forum is never about winning or loosing arguments. I didn't start this to see how many people I could influence or change their thinking or their beliefs. But in doing this Thread, I have learned some things of value for myself that I find depressing and disturbing, to say the least.

    I am kind of surprised that on a forum where people talk freely of faires, elves, dragons and all sorts of other creatures, aliens are taboo and somehow make the poster or her friend crazy. There is a reason I picked fairies and elves. Look at the different myths about little people, these myths are all over the world. There is a lot in common with the stories about aliens.
    Thank you very much, eldora_avalon. Isn't it amazing, even shocking that so few of us can see and appreciate this?

    I have dedicated so much of my own life to supporting the "underdogs" of the World. I have known and comforted Pagan's who were so hurt by the rejection of their families and society that they had became alcoholics.

    So what will become of the Starseeds, Alien Abductees and Contactees? Must they also suffer the same rejection, ridicule and prejudice faced by all minorities - gay's, people of color and pagans?

    If what I've mostly seen here is any indication, the Alien Experiencers can expect to get kicked to the curb by most of the Pagan Community!

    Rather than Pagans applying their experience as a persecuted spiritual underground as a call to value inclusiveness, acceptance, tolerance and diversity, I get the feeling that increasing numbers of pagans are bitter and angry over their plight, and are becoming increasingly entrenched and militant.
    Indeed, some the attitudes I've seen on this Forum over the past several months smack of the Pagan equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan.

    All of this makes me question who I personally should be supporting at this time and why. Should I continue to support causes that would only turn around and disserve others in genuine need?

    Just because someone has an experience that doesn't fit neatly into a pre-labeled box, do we blow them off as mentally ill? If someone encounters an Alien, does that automatically make their blood green instead of red? And even if their blood does test positive for "green" are they the "children of a lesser God"?

    I rest my case, and may we all find our way back to the True Heart of the Divine.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derestanne
    Thank you very much, eldora_avalon. Isn't it amazing, even shocking that so few of us can see and appreciate this?
    What's so amazing and shocking? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Your claims are pretty extraordinary. Show me some tangible evidence and I'd be willing to listen.
    I have dedicated so much of my own life to supporting the "underdogs" of the World.
    Being an underdog does not automatically make one right.
    So what will become of the Starseeds, Alien Abductees and Contactees? Must they also suffer the same rejection, ridicule and prejudice faced by all minorities - gay's, people of color and pagans?
    Claims made by abductees are much more extreme than claims made by gays, people of color, and pagans. Gays have demonstrated their love of members of the same sex. People of color quite obviously have differing skin color. Pagans, like anyone else, are free to believe whatever they want. Abductees have produced nothing solid to back up their claims. It has been thoroughly and repeatedly demonstrated how easily false memories can be manufactured in someone under hypnosis, so alleged recovered memories are worthless as evidence.
    If what I've mostly seen here is any indication, the Alien Experiencers can expect to get kicked to the curb by most of the Pagan Community!
    Not if they have some evidence to back up their claims. People can claim to be the physical embodiment of a particular diety, too, but I'm not going to believe them without some damn good supporting evidence.
    Indeed, some the attitudes I've seen on this Forum over the past several months smack of the Pagan equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan.
    Such as? I've been here a long time and I haven't seen this.
    Just because someone has an experience that doesn't fit neatly into a pre-labeled box, do we blow them off as mentally ill? If someone encounters an Alien, does that automatically make their blood green instead of red? And even if their blood does test positive for "green" are they the "children of a lesser God"?
    When someone makes such a claim, I apply Hume's Maxim: which is more likely - that this person has actually been abducted by aliens, or that this person either has psychological problems or is lying? I would say the latter two are far more likely explanations. If they can produce some compelling evidence for alien abduction, I'm all ears, but memories "recovered" under hypnosis are not my idea of compelling evidence. Popping out one of those devices the aliens installed in them would be. When perfectly reasonable questions get only emotional responses, I think that's a good indicator that the one being questioned has a very shakey case and he/she knows it.
    I rest my case,
    With all due respect, you never made it. It is exceedingly unrealistic to make such extraordinary claims and expect people to just take your word for it.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
    "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgement." -- Cora Munroe in Last of the Mohicans

    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Conan the Barbarian in "Tower of the Elephant" by Robert E. Howard

    "Moral outrage has little effect on a cat." -- Garrison Keillor

    "There aren't many problems than can't be fixed
    with $700 and a .30-06." -- Jeff Cooper. Or maybe it was his daughter Lindy. I can't remember.

  7. #77
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Derestanne
    If what I've mostly seen here is any indication, the Alien Experiencers can expect to get kicked to the curb by most of the Pagan Community!

    Rather than Pagans applying their experience as a persecuted spiritual underground as a call to value inclusiveness, acceptance, tolerance and diversity, I get the feeling that increasing numbers of pagans are bitter and angry over their plight, and are becoming increasingly entrenched and militant.
    Indeed, some the attitudes I've seen on this Forum over the past several months smack of the Pagan equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan.
    Not accepting someone's claims of the paranormal at face value, with no supporting evidence is hardly equivalent to lynchings and hate-mongering.
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  8. #78
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    Taking your toys and going home? (Leaving a lot of unaddressed questions)

    Oh well. Off to another thread.

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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valnorran
    Skeptics have also mentioned this. There are three possibilities: either we are now mistaking elves and fairies for aliens, we were mistaking aliens for elves and fairies, or it's all in our heads.
    Or it is something we don't understand yet. There are a lot of cultures that have some version of Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti or something else. A lot of people thought it was complete nonsense. Most people thought so before fossils of Australopithecus Giganticus were found. Some people still do. The fossils don't prove that these creatures still exist, but it looks like some of them did at one point.

    There are a lot of things that can't be explained. There are a lot of options that haven't been explored for what could be going on with 'Jane'. It could be a brain tumor. She could be having such vivid dreams that they seem real. She had the alien story before she was hypnotised, remember? There are still a lot of things about the brain we do not know. She could be having a parietal lobe seizure that is not manifesting itself in the typical way we expect, but is causing her to hallucinate. She doesn't sound crazy, but she does sound stressed. It sounds like she believes what she says, it doesn't sound like she is lying.

    Freud either didn't believe, or didn't think the world was ready for, incest vistims. Now they are called survivors and they are believed. We seem to think we have come so far that we understand everything. I am not saying aliens are visiting this woman, but I am saying that something is going on with her. To assume she is crazy and needs meds is being insensitive at least and downright cruel quite possibly.
    Official High Priestess,Oracle, Alchemist, and
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    Little cheese, Nachos and Crapachino Cabal
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    My TShirt says:
    Comfort the Disturbed
    Disturb the Comfortable

    This has always been my mission in life :hehehehe:

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by eldora_avalon
    Or it is something we don't understand yet. There are a lot of cultures that have some version of Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti or something else. A lot of people thought it was complete nonsense. Most people thought so before fossils of Australopithecus Giganticus were found. Some people still do. The fossils don't prove that these creatures still exist, but it looks like some of them did at one point.
    Right. But one huge difference between that and the alien abduction phenomenon is that there is some physical evidence for the former. Granted, there isn't much, but that's still more than the abductees have produced. Bigfoot sightings are often accompanied by footprints. Maybe the prints are faked, but they at least rule out the possibility of a dream or hallucination. They at least prove something was actually there.
    There are a lot of things that can't be explained.
    I agree that science has it's limitations and can't explain everything. But it can still cover quite a bit. I don't think wanting some physical evidence is being unreasonable. I think expecting people to believe such a story without any whatsoever is being very unreasonable. Having an open mind doesn't mean blindly accepting everything you hear.
    There are a lot of options that haven't been explored for what could be going on with 'Jane'. It could be a brain tumor. She could be having such vivid dreams that they seem real. She had the alien story before she was hypnotised, remember? There are still a lot of things about the brain we do not know. She could be having a parietal lobe seizure that is not manifesting itself in the typical way we expect, but is causing her to hallucinate. She doesn't sound crazy, but she does sound stressed. It sounds like she believes what she says, it doesn't sound like she is lying.
    Just because people don't sound crazy doesn't mean there aren't crazy. Just because she believes what she's saying doesn't mean she's right. And if she's suffering from those things you mentioned, she needs medical help, not people enabling her to persist in her mistaken perceptions.
    Freud either didn't believe, or didn't think the world was ready for, incest vistims. Now they are called survivors and they are believed.
    Sometimes. And sometimes they're the victims of false memories, too. Just like alien abductees.
    We seem to think we have come so far that we understand everything.
    I'm not sure who you mean by "we." There are plenty of things I don't understand, starting with algebra. But I need something a bit more solid before I accept alien visitation as a real event rather than a hypothetical possibility. Maybe they really are visitng us. But if 2 million people are being contacted every year (someone, I believe it was Derestanne, provided that figure earlier) I'd expect some good physical evidence. The fact that there isn't any tells me that in all likelihood this phenomenon originates not from the stars but from ourselves.
    but I am saying that something is going on with her.
    I agree. The quesion is - what? I think psychological issues or brain malfunctions are far more liklely explanations than alien visitation. If I'm wrong I'll sit down to a big ol' heapin' helpin' of crow.
    To assume she is crazy and needs meds is being insensitive at least and downright cruel quite possibly.
    Well, I think I avoided using the term "crazy" in an attempt to avoid being insensitive. And it's not so much I assume the problem is psychological as I pick that explanation as the most likely. However, if she has psychological problems (or a brain tumor, as you mentioned) meds are probably going to be a much bigger help than prolonging her delusion by enabling it and helping her on her way down the wrong road.

    However, my point in my last post was simply that the claim being made is pretty far off the charts. Asking me to believe something of that scale just on someone's say-so isn't going to cut it with me. Nor, I strongly suspect, will it work with most others. This is why I'm no longer a Christian. I just can't make myself believe a dead man got up and walked away simply because some guys writing years after the event aid so.
    "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgement." -- Cora Munroe in Last of the Mohicans

    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Conan the Barbarian in "Tower of the Elephant" by Robert E. Howard

    "Moral outrage has little effect on a cat." -- Garrison Keillor

    "There aren't many problems than can't be fixed
    with $700 and a .30-06." -- Jeff Cooper. Or maybe it was his daughter Lindy. I can't remember.

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