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Thread: What is your opinion on Christian religion?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeur
    Yes I agree with everything here. In addition to this, it should be noted that Judaism is very ancient and at least half of Christianity is more or less Jewish text. That means that the majority of Christian history is also Jewish history to some extent. How far back does Judaism go? As far back as Sumeria. Certainly this takes away credit from the 'our-gods-are-older' argument considering that this was also about the time that Egypt started its civilization and the Chinese started cultivating the area around the Yellow River.

    As for Satan, many Jews believe that Satan is an agent of God. He is known as the 'Adversary,' and a tempter of man. However, he can also be seen as the creation that gave man a choice. Satan gives the other side of the coin and advertises the pleasures of 'sins.' After all, even with free will, if there were only good things in the world, then there wouldn't really be a choice anyway. However, if man could choose to be good and follow God or be evil and follow Satan, then that would be a practise of free will. I hate quoting Wikipedia, but it writes:

    "In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan is the title, not the proper name, of an angel submitted to God; he is the divine court's chief prosecutor. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God points out Job's piety, ha-satan asks for permission to test the faith of Job. The righteous man is afflicted with loss of family, property, and later, health, but he still stays faithful to God. At the conclusion of this book God appears as a whirlwind, explaining to all that divine justice is inscrutable with human intellect. In the epilogue Job's possessions are restored and he has a second family to "replace" the one that died."
    I agree with a lot of what you said, especially about Ha-satan, which is a sort of divine prosecuting attorney for Yahweh, i also like one of the things in Judaism, because ha-satan points out the evil inclination in humans, not causes it, i think in Judaism, evil is seen as being created by humans (i think, anyway).

    Although, i think there were some Jewish sects who saw Samael as a kind of Satan (not just a servant of Yahweh, but a supernatural enemy of Yahweh).

    Personally, i'd like to learn a lot more about Jewish magic and supernatural beings in Judaism. I'd also like to learn about Christian magic (the ancient Christian's did practice magic, and from what i've read it was powerful stuff).

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by David19
    I agree with a lot of what you said, especially about Ha-satan, which is a sort of divine prosecuting attorney for Yahweh, i also like one of the things in Judaism, because ha-satan points out the evil inclination in humans, not causes it, i think in Judaism, evil is seen as being created by humans (i think, anyway).

    Although, i think there were some Jewish sects who saw Samael as a kind of Satan (not just a servant of Yahweh, but a supernatural enemy of Yahweh).

    Personally, i'd like to learn a lot more about Jewish magic and supernatural beings in Judaism. I'd also like to learn about Christian magic (the ancient Christian's did practice magic, and from what i've read it was powerful stuff).
    Jewish magick is very closely linked to the Qabalah, though, Qabalah is not a magickal system in itself. The Qabalah is simply a means of organizing the Universe and understanding it from a Jewish perspective (as well as understanding how to be closer to God). However, since much of magick and how you go about practising it depends on how you believe the Universe is constructed (and thus can be changed), Qabalic magick has it's own taste. Not many individuals today seem to practise their own mix of Qabalah and magick, preferring instead to use the Golden Dawn brand (which also includes a lot of Christian and Hermetic symbolism).

    As for Christian magick, it's hard to say exactly what rites the early Christians did (and it also depends on how early is 'early'). Certainly the Eucharist was considered a very powerful ritual (with parallels with modern Drawing down the Moon rituals). Baptism was considered very holy and powerful as well. However, it's unclear as to whether or not they practised magick in the form we're most familiar with today. Goetic magick started popping up around the Middle Ages in Europe, and it was very Christian. However, the system of Enochiana that Dee and Kelly 'discovered' was only produced during the Elizabethan times (so pretty modern). That too was also very Christian.

    Hermeticism today is a unique blend between Christian and Jewish mysticisms. It borrows heavily from the Qabalah, Cabalah (Christianized Qabalah), Enochiana, and the Goetia. Hermeticism also includes reoccuring archetypal figures like Osiris (whose archetype is also seen in Jesus, the Wiccan God, Balder, etc) and Isis (also seen in Virgin Mary, the Wiccan Goddess, etc). In general, Hermeticism tends to seek the 'Universal religion,' and thus more likely incorporates archetypes or representations as opposed to actual deities.

    Abrahamic religions also touch ceremonial magick very deeply as seen in any book on the systematic summoning of spirits, demons, angels, etc. The Headless Invokation or the Bornless Invokation (used to open evokations) makes many allusions to Judeo-Christian concepts of God. Demons and angels are frequently commanded to manifest by the name of God and are often said to be bound by the invokation of YHVH.

    I also consider the Abrahamic God to hold a lot of power because a lot of people feed Him power. Consider all the people all over the world who utter prayers to Him: mealtime, bedtime, times of need, holiday time. If a deity's power were dependent on the number of worshippers, then God would doubtably be the most powerful deity in the world. For these reasons I think that Christianity still has quite a bit of kick to add to magick and it's worthwile to look into, especially if you're looking into summoning potentially dangerous entities.

  3. #33
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    Thanks for that advice, this may be going too off topic, but do you have any book recommendations for the goatia, enochian magic, Kabbalah, etc.

    Thanks .

  4. #34
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    'Modern Magick' by Kraig has often been cited as one of the better books on how to 'get your feet wet' with Ceremonial Magick. I also recommend Franz Bardon's 'Initiation into Hermetics.' Most of Bardon's works are available online. Most people tend to tell newbies to stay away from the actual grimoires like The Goetia and the Lesser Keys of Solomon because they offer a lot of 'how to's without proper consideration of the user's knowledge (of course they were usually written back in the middle ages...so you now how that goes).

    My mentor who is a ceremonial buff also recommends Bardon (actually she was the one who recommended him to me haha) as well as 'Enochian for Beginners' by Tyson.

    While this isn't exactly on Qabalah in the Jewish sense, I've always found Mathers' 'Kabbalah Unveiled' quite interesting and easy to read (though it is highly Christianized). There's apparently also a Qabalah class going on on MysticWicks' forums.

  5. #35
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    My opinion on the Christian religion is nothing very flattering, and not just because of things I've heard or others have said. I was raised a Christian, and remained one (visibly) for about fifteen years of my life. Until I realized that I didn't really believe the same things that the church did, on practically any levels. Many of the Christians I knew were hopeless hypocrites, saying one thing and doing the exact opposite. Or acting as though they were better than you if you did a single thing wrong. If you pointed out that they had done the same thing when they were your age, or recently, they were quick to jump to their defense with 'that doesn't matter, I'm forgiven, you're not. you need to be.' Umm... no, I don't think I need to be forgiven just because I took your god's name in vain, or because I happened to get drunk once.

    That, and I've been told that I'm going to hell more than once just because I'm a lesbian. Apparently, I'm 'possessed' by a demon, that's why I like girls instead of guys. Puh-leaze. And yes, I am very aware that not all Christians are like this, so no one has to tell me that. I know the Bible practically inside out, so I know that there are more admonishments to straight people than there are to gay people by a fair margin. But I don't believe in the Bible, I don't believe in all of that stuff, I think it's a little ridiculous that Christians will believe Jesus walked on water, but they refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, other religions might be right. I don't see Wiccans shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats, wailing about how their soul needs to be saved or they'll burn forever. No, I don't like chrisianity. Sure, I like some Christians, I just don't like their religion.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Billy
    I like their Christ.

    I don't like most Christians.

    They are so unlike their Christ.
    Agreed. I'd probably get along okay with old Yeshua. I'd have to disagree with him about gays and divorce, though. Maybe a few other things, as well.
    BB, Stella
    Last edited by stella01904; May 6th, 2006 at 11:35 AM.

  7. #37
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    Coer wrote:
    (considering that 90% of the world is more or less Abrahamic)
    Well, only if you toss out the Asian half of the world. There are around 1.3 billion Christians, around a Billion Muslims, a negligible number of Jews, a Billion Hindu, around 1.7 Billion other Asian,, and the rest (about 0.8 Billion) are other religions, such as tribal animists, Atheists, etc. So that comes to around (1+0+1.3)/6 = 38% Abrahamic.

    How far back does Judaism go? As far back as Sumeria.
    That’s like saying that the United States dates back to Jesus’ day.

    It takes an awful lot of stretching what “Judaism” means to make that claim. The Sumerian civilization dates back to at least the 3,500 BCE, and the book of Genesis was only written around 1500 BCE, even if you go with the inflated dates of the fundamentalists. Modern scholars date the writing of Genesis to after 900 BCE. Sure there were ancestors of the Jews before that, just as there were ancestors of George Washington as far back as you would like to go (500 CE, 400 BCE, 2000 BCE, 10,000 BCE and all the way back to chimp-like humans).

    Certainly this takes away credit from the 'our-gods-are-older' argument
    While I’m not much impressed by who’s gods are oldest, it’s not hard at all to come up with gods older than the Abrahamic ones – as if that mattered.

    Stephanie Aine wrote:
    lot of times people will say, "I don't like Christianity because - " and then they'll say something describing *the people who identify themselves as being Christians.* They won't necessarily say anything about Christian theology
    I disagree with parts of Christianity because of the doctrine, the ideas – not because of the people. In fact, on balance, I know a lot of wonderful people who are Christian.

    The doctrines I disagree with are firmly rooted in the Bible, both in the old and new testaments, including the (at least attributed) words of Jesus. These include doctrines such as:

    • That all other religions are unacceptable and are not to be tolerated
    • That religion comes before family or friends. If you have a religious difference with your son or daughter, you are not to accept them or their religion. Jesus in particular is very clear about this.
    • That homosexuals are to be condemned
    • That heinous acts or policies by God are to be accepted, and the God who does these things (like torture babies, kill civilians by the thousands just to show his power, or torture people like your brother or friend for eternity) is to be worshipped and praised for these actions.
    • That the Bible is the final authority for truth – other sources of truth (such as evidence or reason) are to be ignored if they don’t first match what the Bible says.
    • Hell awaits all non-Christians.


    And so on. These ideas are harmful and are basic parts of the Bible and hence of Christianity. Many Christians I know aren’t very familiar with Christian doctrine and rarely read the Bible. These people are often tolerant and kind. :cheers:

    Other people really study the Bible and learn the basics of their religious denomination's beliefs, and continue learning for the rest of their lives; they pray and keep their faith in mind throughout their day, try to emulate Jesus and apply His teachings and so forth.
    And I’ve found these people to be the most likely to stick to the fundamentals of Christianity. That’s why they are called Fundamentalists.

    Yes there are jerks in any religion. However, in the case of Christianity, knowing and sticking to the fundamental doctrines seems to make people into bigger jerks. The same seems to go for Islam. That’s not true of all religions. Sticking to the basics of Buddhism, for instance, doesn’t seem to do that. Of course, people vary, and some people of all faiths will be jerks, and some will be nice. In the case of Christianity, I don’t blame the “bad apples” so much as the fundamental doctrines, which anyone can see should be expected to make people intolerant.

    The version of Jesus popular among moderates – that of an open-minded, tolerant, miracle working guru – is certainly nice (as reflected in the quote from Gandhi that LB quoted without attribution). However, to get that you have to ignore all the nastier stuff about Jesus, such as his very common preaching about Hellfire, or his advice to abandon one’s family and children for religion, or to actively convert everyone to Christianity, or to eschew other religions. I’m sure it feels better to do that, but it invites that accusation that you are making Jesus into what you want him to be, which seems dishonest to do. I mean, why not just do that with anyone – Hitler, say, or Mao? First decide what you want their “teachings” to be, then just go with that, regardless of any other evidence.

    It comes down to ideas – whether they are good or bad – not who you attribute them to. If the idea is good, then follow it because it’s a good idea, whether Jesus or whoever said it or not really doesn’t matter. Isn’t that a more honest approach to life?

    Have a fun day-
    Last edited by equinox2; May 11th, 2006 at 09:05 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinox2
    Coer wrote:


    Well, only if you toss out the Asian half of the world. There are around 1.3 billion Christians, around a Billion Muslims, a negligible number of Jews, a Billion Hindu, around 1.7 Billion other Asian,, and the rest (about 0.8 Billion) are other religions, such as tribal animists, Atheists, etc. So that comes to around (1+0+1.3)/6 = 38% Abrahamic.



    That’s like saying that the United States dates back to Jesus’ day.

    It takes an awful lot of stretching what “Judaism” means to make that claim. The Sumerian civilization dates back to at least the 3,500 BCE, and the book of Genesis was only written around 1500 BCE, even if you go with the inflated dates of the fundamentalists. Modern scholars date the writing of Genesis to after 900 BCE. Sure there were ancestors of the Jews before that, just as there were ancestors of George Washington as far back as you would like to go (500 CE, 400 BCE, 2000 BCE, 10,000 BCE and all the way back to chimp-like humans).



    While I’m not much impressed by who’s gods are oldest, it’s not hard at all to come up with gods older than the Abrahamic ones – as if that mattered.

    Stephanie Aine wrote:


    I disagree with parts of Christianity because of the doctrine, the ideas – not because of the people. In fact, on balance, I know a lot of wonderful people who are Christian.

    The doctrines I disagree with are firmly rooted in the Bible, both in the old and new testaments, including the (at least attributed) words of Jesus. These include doctrines such as:

    • That all other religions are unacceptable and are not to be tolerated
    • That religion comes before family or friends. If you have a religious difference with your son or daughter, you are not to accept them or their religion. Jesus in particular is very clear about this.
    • That homosexuals are to be condemned
    • That heinous acts or policies by God are to be accepted, and the God who does these things (like torture babies, kill civilians by the thousands just to show his power, or torture people like your brother or friend for eternity) is to be worshipped and praised for these actions.
    • That the Bible is the final authority for truth – other sources of truth (such as evidence or reason) are to be ignored if they don’t first match what the Bible says.
    • Hell awaits all non-Christians.


    And so on. These ideas are harmful and are basic parts of the Bible and hence of Christianity. Many Christians I know aren’t very familiar with Christian doctrine and rarely read the Bible. These people are often tolerant and kind. :cheers:



    And I’ve found these people to be the most likely to stick to the fundamentals of Christianity. That’s why they are called Fundamentalists.

    Yes there are jerks in any religion. However, in the case of Christianity, knowing and sticking to the fundamental doctrines seems to make people into bigger jerks. The same seems to go for Islam. That’s not true of all religions. Sticking to the basics of Buddhism, for instance, doesn’t seem to do that. Of course, people vary, and some people of all faiths will be jerks, and some will be nice. In the case of Christianity, I don’t blame the “bad apples” so much as the fundamental doctrines, which anyone can see should be expected to make people intolerant.

    The version of Jesus popular among moderates – that of an open-minded, tolerant, miracle working guru – is certainly nice (as reflected in the quote from Gandhi that LB quoted without attribution). However, to get that you have to ignore all the nastier stuff about Jesus, such as his very common preaching about Hellfire, or his advice to abandon one’s family and children for religion, or to actively convert everyone to Christianity, or to eschew other religions. I’m sure it feels better to do that, but it invites that accusation that you are making Jesus into what you want him to be, which seems dishonest to do. I mean, why not just do that with anyone – Hitler, say, or Mao? First decide what you want their “teachings” to be, then just go with that, regardless of any other evidence.

    It comes down to ideas – whether they are good or bad – not who you attribute them to. If the idea is good, then follow it because it’s a good idea, whether Jesus or whoever said it or not really doesn’t matter. Isn’t that a more honest approach to life?

    Have a fun day-
    Actually, i'd thought i'd just say that Jewish history does go back to Sumerian times, as Abraham was a Akkadian (he worshipped the Sumerian gods, and his wife/wives were Sumerian too, then he left when Yahweh appeared), so while Judaism may have changed, it does have a long history.

    I'd also thought i'd say that while i also disagree with the teachings about LGBT people (as i am gay), i see them in the context that they were written (the Hebrews were tribal and they wanted to become a 'nation', so they needed to reproduce more, and homosexuality was a part of early Judaism), i've seen some sites that say Jesus never condems gay people (and i think says to not harm them).

    Anyway, i'd thought i'd say that.

  9. #39
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    [QUOTE=David19]
    i've seen some sites that say Jesus never condems gay people (and i think says to not harm them).
    [QUOTE]


    Since I'm a "straight" ally (okay, I'm bi, but overly and "unnaturally" committed to one man for the past 8 1/2 years), and a Christian, I'd like to know if you could give me the sites that mention this. I know what Paul has to say about it (some of the part where he reverts to his Pharasee past, which I know he doesn't do with everything he wrote), but I'd like to see where Jesus said something about it.

    On a side note, I do believe (though admit I may be incorrect in thinking this) that some of the things that were condemned in Judaism's past (that many Christians throw in the face of people today) were in place for the sake of forming the Hebrew nation, and not because they were sins in and of themselves.
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  10. #40
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    Now that I'm over the resentment that naturally comes with having grown up Catholic, I feel much better about Christianity in general.

    I read the Bible, respect a lot of the principles, but it's not my path.

    I am the religious right. Just not the religion most people expect.


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