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Thread: Bad Pagan Sites?

  1. #91
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    Why so much disinformation?...

    Greetings,

    I think there are several aspects to this:

    1. Some people make everything up because they think that's what everyone else is doing. They see a pagan path as something not far removed from quilting... a piece of this, a piece of that, a few of my own touches and there you have it! Their own pagan creation, which is now an official religion on which they are the indisputable experts... This probably describes more sites than we'd care to think...
    2. Some people are frustrated by the idea of having to discipline themselves to study and practice. They want to get right out there and start leading or being pagan celebrities, so they skip past the learning part to the expert part. Being an expert means having "the right answer" to every question. Since they have no answers of their own, they copy and paste other people's answers. Since they have no knowledge or experience they can't very well explain things more clearly for newbies.
    3. Even some famous Pagans and Druids don't keep up with the latest academic theories. They're more comfortable thinking of the theories they know as "facts" -- which is how they keep presenting them. But even amongst the best scholars disagreements are emerging on even basic assumptions. If you don't keep current on the research you soon find yourself expounding theories that were once "facts" but have now fallen from grace.
    4. A very few sites present entirely different answers because their answers come from different cultures or cultural perspectives. Mainstream society considers these histories "myths" not because they are less factual, but because what they teach might subvert mainstream culture. Sites like this are rare gems, if what you're looking for is in the line of native European Paganism, but be prepared to be ridiculed if you use them. While we all claim to revere native beliefs, most of us restrict that reverence to contemplations of history and are not likewise inclined towards native approaches in use at the present moment.
    5. And finally, some people are simply hostile to Paganism, and the rubbish they publish is intended to undermine and marginalise Pagans/Druids and their Paths. Some of these sites are obvious; others are not and you may really have to read the fine print to recognise them for what they are.

    There are, I am sure, other reasons for all the disinformation but these are the commonest reasons known to me. Together, they create a real obstable course to discovery. I avoid the obstacle course by:

    1. Using only recognised scholars for my sources;
    2. Keeping abreast of the latest thinking in academic circles; and
    3. Remembering that there are not historical "facts". Facts are subject to change as new evidence emerges and with shifts in academic trends. All scholars can offer us is theories... so if we are trying to reconstruct something done in time long past, we do well to remember that today's "facts" can easily become tomorrow's "fiction".

    Most of all, enjoy the exploration. Don't get so caught up in finding the answers that you forget that the whole point is the journey you're taking while seeking them.

    Be well and be blessed--
    Last edited by Morgaine_cla; July 6th, 2009 at 07:51 PM. Reason: clarity
    * Three first parts of Understanding: An Eye to see what is; A Heart to feel what is; and a Boldness that dares to follow them. *

  2. #92
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    What are the diffrences?

    There are common elements that are used in workings and common practices among different paths.Wich strictly relates to scientific methods.There is common knowledge in all religions,common elements.If the craft would be more scienced there won't be so much arguing between pagans,but the differences respected.While it's not ok to corner someone religion,we must stay on the truth side on similarities and diffrences in the occult processes,there are practicioneers that have achieved good results but don't beleive in a certain deity and are not religious at all.They do their energywork in a scientific way.

  3. #93
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    :)

    Thank you Morgaine_cla for the deep answer.Can you tell me your sources?Also what do you think?Can occult sciences finnaly become fully science in their own right?Blessings for you too!
    I agree with you Morgaine_cla!It's true some are just frustrated to study and want to become stars,and create a fiction after all,that it's ranked at a religion,so they can benefit from the right of not being discussed.They put religion like an axioma that cannot be demostrated but it's true.But this is a sofism.You are saying there are unbeleivers that practice paganism?That are still stuck there at FAQ at DOes magic exist? or Do spell work? or Let's play magic and spells like D and D? amazing it might actually be true what you say
    Well,my heart it's in the right place,I hope to find the practical truth and get a positive outcome of it,and hopefully get some grain books About the academic circles you are talking about do you dwell in such circles and who do you consider valable true academics?
    Last edited by trueseeker; July 4th, 2009 at 11:12 PM.

  4. #94
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    Greetings,

    I am honoured if my words were useful or spurred you on to useful avenues of contemplation and exploration.

    I draw my information from several sources:

    • What I was taught by my mentors (folklore, oral tradition lore and practices, etc.);
    • What I have discovered through direct observation and experience; and
    • What I have discovered from Primary (intuitive) Sources.

    However, I also verify all of this information through at least 3 "outside", scientific and academic sources. My sources for verification are:

    • Science;
    • Academia; and
    • Comparative studies.

    I refer to scientific and academic papers, journals, etc. published by people from top universities and colleges, mainly. Archaeologists, folklorists, literary and linguistic experts, geologists, forensics experts, etc. I look for "the top names" and I also try to keep up on current debates, disagreements, etc. between experts (of which there are quite a few). For example, in the area of literature I might look at collections of material at Cambridge or Oxford, or if what I am looking for is in Welsh, something by an eminent Welsh native scholar with the U. of Wales, etc. Where ancient sites are concerned, I try to actually visit the sites myself and spend extended periods of time exploring them and seeing/experiencing the evidence for myself.

    If I cannot find verification of a belief, practice, of concept in at least three of these outside sources, then it is either rejected or put "on the back burner" until such time as verification emerges. Since facts constantly change, I must be prepared to change my views as more evidence emerges, which means giving up the idea of having "one, unchanging right answer" to anything, and embracing the idea that the answers will (and must) evolve as my knowledge and understanding evolves.

    This process of verification is something I do for myself, so that I know exactly how and why something is "true" for our Tradition. I cannot provide verification for anyone else; each person must do it for themselves in order for it to have any real, lasting value. There is a very great difference between knowing that the sky appears blue because I see it, and just accepting someone else's word for it. We must each come to Truth through our own efforts, I feel.

    So to sum up, my root sources lie in our Tradition, but everything the Tradition teaches and practices, and every personal discovery that is made, is tested by each practitioner through this process of verification. So we're working in a sort of laboratory full of Druids collaborating to verify what is true, rather than a roomful of experts each claiming to have sole possession of it.

    I do think that it is possible for Paganism and Druidry to regain their ancient credibility, if we as practitioners are willing to test the truth of our work and let our understanding evolve, rather than submit to the temptation to accept someone else's answers merely because they claim to be authorities. I believe we must each learn to think for ourselves and be more tolerant of the process needed to grasp an evolving truth. I believe we must cast aside the modern habit of coddling the ego and embark on real explorations, and the more willing we become to share what we discover, and the more trustworthy we become with the information exchanged, the more "valid" our work will become -- in reality, and in the eyes of the world.

    I find Stephen Hawking, Gwyn & Thomas Jones, Nicholas Mann, the Bodleian Library, and sites like Archaeological News and Science Daily (which bring together current relevant news articles in one place)
    and similar resources especially helpful when doing research.

    I hope you have found this helpful and may your journey be blessed!
    Last edited by Morgaine_cla; July 6th, 2009 at 09:27 PM. Reason: clarity
    * Three first parts of Understanding: An Eye to see what is; A Heart to feel what is; and a Boldness that dares to follow them. *

  5. #95
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    I like the way you think Morgaine

    Yes,that's what I thought it should be good.I saw a lot of people ,especially new confused,I was myself confused even after 10 years of reading ,that's why I seeked MW out.As you said some people are just lazy to learn,and prefer to fiction and if picked on they jump right out at you yelling 'you have no right to judge my religion' yes,right if some people beleive the Planet Earth is flat,it does not mean it's also true.But if they make 'I beleive the Earth in flat' a religion you have no right to pick on them ) Actually there is a society right in our modern times that refuses to document and stubbornly beleives the earth is flat ) What do you think about that?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueseeker View Post
    Yes,that's what I thought it should be good.I saw a lot of people ,especially new confused,I was myself confused even after 10 years of reading ,that's why I seeked MW out.As you said some people are just lazy to learn,and prefer to fiction and if picked on they jump right out at you yelling 'you have no right to judge my religion' yes,right if some people beleive the Planet Earth is flat,it does not mean it's also true.But if they make 'I beleive the Earth in flat' a religion you have no right to pick on them ) Actually there is a society right in our modern times that refuses to document and stubbornly beleives the earth is flat ) What do you think about that?
    That's right, we don't have any right to be disrespectful to a person just because we think their beliefs are idiotic. However, we do have the right to say, "I don't agree with your beliefs, and here is the reason."

    So much of science has been proven and then disproven and replaced with new truth that it's kind of silly to get into an argument about it though.
    Last edited by Lunacie; July 7th, 2009 at 09:23 AM. Reason: typo
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  7. #97
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    You can see with your own eyes

    But it's true that the Earth it's not flat.If you get up in a high tower you can observe the curve of the Earth.Also establishing a point A for departure and a point B on the other side of the planet you can end up without returning on the same road on point A.So the Earth is not flat,and I don't need no scientist to tell me that.
    I think so it's with the occult techniques and believes and practices.I have not found a single book that I could trust.No one single sustainable author to demonstrate practically what they claim.But I hope to find one,or one book someday...Well,I guess I test everything..
    Last edited by trueseeker; July 7th, 2009 at 01:24 PM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueseeker View Post
    But it's true that the Earth it's not flat.If you get up in a high tower you can observe the curve of the Earth.Also establishing a point A for departure and a point B on the other side of the planet you can end up without returning on the same road on point A.So the Earth is not flat,and I don't need no scientist to tell me that.
    Why the "but"?

    I said we can certainly disagree with beliefs that we find idiotic without being disrespectful and calling the believer an idiot. Do you really think you can change their beliefs by showing them your proof? Don't you think others have already tried that? Why argue with them?
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  9. #99
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    I agreed with you Lunacie

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    Why the "but"?

    I said we can certainly disagree with beliefs that we find idiotic without being disrespectful and calling the believer an idiot. Do you really think you can change their beliefs by showing them your proof? Don't you think others have already tried that? Why argue with them?
    Who was disrespectful? I did not say idiot in any of I wrote.And I do not argue,if I have verified any fact by myself,I demonstrate it ,and if the people see the reality ok,if not they are not idiots,but people who will believe a certain thing,just because they have a fixed idea that is how reality should be about that certain thing,even if it conflicts directly with the truth.Christians for example would never accept that there were humans created before Adam,by other Gods,even if the story is there in Genesis,written directly into their Bible.Yet they refuse to acknowledge that.I have studied the original versions in Hebrew,and there in Genesis it sais that Elohim,who is a world in it's plural form that means godS or pantheon have created humans in their likeness,in a verse before A god(1 another certain God) named Jehova or Yahweh created Adam,as his own into his likeness human.The 1(singular) god Yahweh put his man into a certain garden on Earth which he called Eden.In sustaining this,there is also another verse that says after Cain murdered Abel he recieved a sign of his murder and he went to live with people in the city called Edom,and he took a wife from there.A city full of people!How come,since from the point of view of god Yahweh there were only 3 people alive on Earth,Adam,Eve and Cain?This is also written in Ali Jilwah book,in the original version.Also I saw this taken on some blog by Oberon Zell Ravenheart ,in relation to some even when he made fun of some Jehovas Witnesses.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueseeker View Post
    Who was disrespectful? I did not say idiot in any of I wrote.And I do not argue,if I have verified any fact by myself,I demonstrate it ,and if the people see the reality ok,if not they are not idiots,but people who will believe a certain thing,just because they have a fixed idea that is how reality should be about that certain thing,even if it conflicts directly with the truth.Christians for example would never accept that there were humans created before Adam,by other Gods,even if the story is there in Genesis,written directly into their Bible.Yet they refuse to acknowledge that.I have studied the original versions in Hebrew,and there in Genesis it sais that Elohim,who is a world in it's plural form that means godS or pantheon have created humans in their likeness,in a verse before A god(1 another certain God) named Jehova or Yahweh created Adam,as his own into his likeness human.The 1(singular) god Yahweh put his man into a certain garden on Earth which he called Eden.In sustaining this,there is also another verse that says after Cain murdered Abel he recieved a sign of his murder and he went to live with people in the city called Edom,and he took a wife from there.A city full of people!How come,since from the point of view of god Yahweh there were only 3 people alive on Earth,Adam,Eve and Cain?This is also written in Ali Jilwah book,in the original version.Also I saw this taken on some blog by Oberon Zell Ravenheart ,in relation to some even when he made fun of some Jehovas Witnesses.
    So much confusion over the printed word.

    I didn't say you were being disrespectful, just pointing out that it's possible to disagree with an idea without making it look like the person themselves are somehow flawed.

    We've had several threads here about the original meaning of some of the words and phrases in the bible, and how mis-interpreted and mis-translated it has been. Again, we can disagree with those mis-interpretations and mis-translations without flaming the person who's ideas we are disagreeing with.
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