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Thread: Uindos / Cernunnos connection?

  1. #1
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    Uindos / Cernunnos connection?

    I read that Uindos is another name for Cernunnos or is this a seperate god altogether?
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    Hm. I'm not an expert on Celtic things. I found this:

    Cernunnos is the most common name used today for the deity called "Uindos" in Old Irish literature. He is also sometimes called "Finn," the name of a main hero in a cycle of ancient stories about the "Fianna" or warrior-bands of Old Ireland.
    (here)
    Uindos
    1. An ancient Celtic god, son of Noudons, in a group of great epic tales and romances called the Fenian cycle. Uindos is also called Cernunnos (Greek). Most famous incarnation is as Finn Mac Cumhail.
    - Tadhg MacCrossan The Truth about Druids
    It seems that Uindos is the same as Cernunnos.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agaliha View Post
    Hm. I'm not an expert on Celtic things. I found this:





    It seems that Uindos is the same as Cernunnos.
    This is fascinating, if true, but I'd like to see further sources, and I'd like to see Celtic specialists like Faol-chu comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agaliha View Post
    Hm. I'm not an expert on Celtic things. I found this:





    It seems that Uindos is the same as Cernunnos.
    I'd be sceptical of this because Cernunnos, being a Gaulish deity known to us through Gaulish inscriptions, has no specific mention in Irish literature, and no mythology of his own with which to make a clear comparison with existing Irish mythology.

    I'd hesitate to state as fact (as the first website does) that Cernunnos and Uindos are one and the same, especially when there are no accompanying references to the statement to back it up. There are other suspect statements on that website that give cause for concern as well. While there may be similarities between Cernunnos and Fionn (i.e. they're associated with hunting), this isn't enough evidence to say they're the same. But then again, I don't view deities as archetypes, and nor do most Celtic scholars these days.

  5. #5
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    I'm skeptical as well. My searches lead me to one unreferenced article in the Llewellyn Encyclopedia that seemed to show up reprinted on other sites on all my searches. It was a little depressing to tell you the truth.

    Celtic Religion by Tadhg MacCrossan

    As I don't study neo-Druidism, I've never heard of him maybe someone knows more or another source for this 'connection.'

    The high gods of the pagan Irish were called the Tuatha Dé Danann, "toutas of the goddess Danu." These were the gods of both the sky and the heavens. Allied to them were the gods of the earth, fire and horses, and a family of gods. The enemies of the Tuatha Dé Danann were the giants, or fomors, who opposed the gods and their values. The Tuatha Dé Danann (or gods) represented order, learning, wisdom, skill, technology, industry, strength, courage, productivity and fertility, as well as light, warmth, progress and beauty. The giants represented stinginess, oppression, rudeness, cowardice, ignorance, vulgarity, poverty, and crudity, as well as darkness, stagnation, ugliness, brutality, sickness and disorder. The values of the gods were the values of Celtic society, and represented the healthy ideals of society and the individual.

    At the head of the Celtic pantheon was Lugus the Long-Armed, followed by Noudons the Silver- Armed. Then came the deities Uindos (or Cernunnos, as he has been popularized in Greek). Ogmios, Brigindu, Maponos and Epona. Celtic religion idealized its virtues in a basic three-fold scheme of learning, strength and wealth, which made a sort of five-fold division of the gods, as did other Indo-European mythologies:

    1. Lugus (loo-goos), the magician-king
    2. Noudons (nuh-oo-dohns), the judge-priest
    3. Ogmios (ohg-mee-awss), the warrior
    4. Epos Olloatir (ollo-ah-tur), the horse god
    5. Epona (eh-paw-nah), the horse goddess ...
    Finn Mac Cumhail is an incarnation of the wild hunter and warrior-poet god Cernunnos. We find this deity manifested as such in other Irish and Welsh medieval tales as well. The Fenians were so skilled in the magical arts of poetry and fighting that they seem to have been a combination of warriors and Druids, with the Druidic freedom to move from one tribal territory to another. Scholars have identified the tales of the Fenians with other Indo-European männerbunds like the Eriloz or Erulians of the Germanic peoples. Both the Fenian and Ulster cycles of tales are full of magic. They are a great source for learning about the nature of the Tuatha Dé Danann divinities. They broadly resemble the Aesir and Vanir of the Germanic peoples, the Devas of the Vedic Indians, and the Greek Olympians.
    Last edited by _Banbha_; December 31st, 2006 at 03:42 AM. Reason: link fix




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    Interesting. Well like I said, I'm not any sort of expert on Celtic mythology or history. From those two quotes I posted it seems that they are the same, but in reality I have no idea. Most likely they're not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WyldeDryad View Post
    I'm skeptical as well. My searches lead me to one unreferenced article in the Llewellyn Encyclopedia that seemed to show up on all my searches. It was a little depressing to tell you the truth.

    Celtic Religion by Tadhg MacCrossan

    As I don't study neo-Druidism, I've never heard of him maybe someone knows more or another source for this 'connection.'





    He wrote a small book called The Truth About The Druids . in it ,it has the same info. Actually i was debating on putting the question here or in the Druid forum. Although the bibliography does list Caitlin Mathews as a source and this person is considered somewhat referable. Actually i`m gonna ask this question in the Druids section now.
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    I would not recommend the article I posted personally, I should have been more clear. I hope someone comes up with something because I'm curious and wonder what the source might actually be for the 'connection.'

    For a basic example of badness besides no references: The article is titled "Celtic Religion." I'd go on but my head hurts and this does not help it. :hehehehe:
    Last edited by _Banbha_; December 31st, 2006 at 02:41 AM.




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    Quote Originally Posted by lightdragon View Post
    He wrote a small book called The Truth About The Druids . in it ,it has the same info. Actually i was debating on putting the question here or in the Druid forum. Although the bibliography does list Caitlin Mathews as a source and this person is considered somewhat referable. Actually i`m gonna ask this question in the Druids section now.
    Okay, do you know if the book has references beyond Matthews, who I wouldn't recommend either, to be honest. Is the information footnoted?




  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WyldeDryad View Post
    I'm skeptical as well. My searches lead me to one unreferenced article in the Llewellyn Encyclopedia that seemed to show up reprinted on other sites on all my searches. It was a little depressing to tell you the truth.

    Quote:
    The high gods of the pagan Irish were called the Tuatha Dé Danann, "toutas of the goddess Danu." These were the gods of both the sky and the heavens. Allied to them were the gods of the earth, fire and horses, and a family of gods. The enemies of the Tuatha Dé Danann were the giants, or fomors, who opposed the gods and their values. The Tuatha Dé Danann (or gods) represented order, learning, wisdom, skill, technology, industry, strength, courage, productivity and fertility, as well as light, warmth, progress and beauty. The giants represented stinginess, oppression, rudeness, cowardice, ignorance, vulgarity, poverty, and crudity, as well as darkness, stagnation, ugliness, brutality, sickness and disorder. The values of the gods were the values of Celtic society, and represented the healthy ideals of society and the individual.

    At the head of the Celtic pantheon was Lugus the Long-Armed, followed by Noudons the Silver- Armed. Then came the deities Uindos (or Cernunnos, as he has been popularized in Greek). Ogmios, Brigindu, Maponos and Epona. Celtic religion idealized its virtues in a basic three-fold scheme of learning, strength and wealth, which made a sort of five-fold division of the gods, as did other Indo-European mythologies:

    1. Lugus (loo-goos), the magician-king
    2. Noudons (nuh-oo-dohns), the judge-priest
    3. Ogmios (ohg-mee-awss), the warrior
    4. Epos Olloatir (ollo-ah-tur), the horse god
    5. Epona (eh-paw-nah), the horse goddess ...


    Quote:
    Finn Mac Cumhail is an incarnation of the wild hunter and warrior-poet god Cernunnos. We find this deity manifested as such in other Irish and Welsh medieval tales as well. The Fenians were so skilled in the magical arts of poetry and fighting that they seem to have been a combination of warriors and Druids, with the Druidic freedom to move from one tribal territory to another. Scholars have identified the tales of the Fenians with other Indo-European männerbunds like the Eriloz or Erulians of the Germanic peoples. Both the Fenian and Ulster cycles of tales are full of magic. They are a great source for learning about the nature of the Tuatha Dé Danann divinities. They broadly resemble the Aesir and Vanir of the Germanic peoples, the Devas of the Vedic Indians, and the Greek Olympians.

    Quote Originally Posted by WyldeDryad View Post
    I would not recommend the article I posted personally, I should have been more clear. I hope someone comes up with something because I'm curious and wonder what the source might actually be for the 'connection.'

    For a basic example of badness besides no references: The article is titled "Celtic Religion." I'd go on but my head hurts and this does not help it. :hehehehe:

    I agree in suspecting the article. The author states that he is discussing the "high gods of the pagan Irish" and then calls them by Latinized names and lists one, Epona, who is specifically Gaulish and one, Epos Olloatir, to whom I can find no scholarly reference at all in a quick google.

    It's almost like a potato test:
    ot1h, use of 'Celtic' as a cultural definition
    otoh, poorly referenced with only doubtful researchers
    otgh, designating the Irish Pantheon as 'god of this' goddess of that' (it's never that simple) and doing it incorrectly to boot:

    Lúgh (although he does end up ruling) is primarily a Hero and revered as 'many-gifted' and bright.
    Nuadu is (to put it simplistically) symbolic of the re-gaining of the attributes of Kingship.
    and
    Ogma is about learning and understanding, roughly. And cranes.

    Caitlin Mathews is a fluid and moving writer; I have her 'book of Days'
    http://www.amazon.com/Celtic-Devotio...e=UTF8&s=books
    and love it) but she is not the best at separating upg from research. I would never quote any unreferenced historical statement of hers as fact.


    Alexei Kondratiev I am glad to reference as a scholar. He has an essay about Lúgh that (I think) shows the referencable Deities in a more Irish cultural light:

    http://www.mythicalireland.com/mytho...ade/lugus.html

    Nuadu's arm is healed, restoring his ability to wield sovereignty. When Lúgh (who has a Danann father and a Fomorian mother) returns from his fosterage and seeks to enter at the gates of Tara (the seat of sovereignty), one could say that he is politically superfluous to the Tuatha Dé Danann's plans; and he is told that none may enter Tara who does not possess a distinctive craft (since the Tuatha Dé Danann are an idealization of society, each one of them being the patron of a specific occupation). Lúgh's distinctiveness, however, is that he is master of all crafts: he is the Samildánach, the "Many-Gifted One". He alone (like Celtic "Mercury") can move between all the activities of society, and be the patron of each one, uniting the three functions. As such he supersedes all the narrowly functional deities (including Nuadu, who is "simply" king) and becomes the ideal defender of the Tribe against the chaotic powers of the Land.

    Even today, the spirit of Lugus pervades the Celtic world, second only to Brigit in significance and accessibility. Trickster, psychopomp, experimenter, mover between worlds, granter of success and wealth through intelligent manipulation, and granter of continuity through change, his many gifts remain at the disposal of those who trouble to seek him out.
    Last edited by skilly-nilly; December 31st, 2006 at 12:32 PM. Reason: edited to add, I have never seen any acceptable reference of Cernunnos except scantily as continental.
    *I am a mystic and work through Imbas rather than re-constructive archeology. Lore, history, and research are vital tools and permit us to validate and amplify communications we recieve. Disagreement and referencing of materials are also welcome benchmarks. What I say is not the 'Truth' but only my perception/opinion/belief and I am happy to give the same consideration to everyone else's point of view.*

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