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Thread: Uindos / Cernunnos connection?

  1. #21
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    So far I found no other connections with Cernunnos and Uindos.

    although Uindos is mentioned :
    1. AES NEMETI - The Age of Nemetos (Sacred): "I am the sound of the Sea, I am a stag of seven points (Song of Amairgen)": The first Age, Krita Yuga, in which Four lakes, twelve plains are created. The calendar is set on the first night of the Uegilia Samoni (Samhain) and tributes are paid to the demons of the underworld, that are the Uomorioi. This is the Age of Water. The Dawn Stag is the first cause of manifestation during the creation of this Age, and it corresponds to the initial wave led by the Horse spirit. The world is ruled by Nemetos or Uindos (Fionn) in the East. This Age of Truth, the Golden Age, corresponds to the prime time. In this first wave are brought the four branches of knowledge, the Uidiia which contain the Four Druid sciences, such as logic, astronomy, natural sciences and grammar. Element: Water from the Eastern quarters from which comes Medus (Soma in Sanskrit).

    in this article:
    http://cura.free.fr/xv/14boutet.html

    Also on another messageboard they sited that a guy named Tom Cross wrote a book called Druidism . They said that Fin Mac Cumail and Gywnn Ap Nudd are later versions of a god named Vuindos or Uindos.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren_ View Post
    Oh, and it's been suggested that his huge club is actually a euphemism for his big dingle
    Which explains the wheels needed to tote it about as well.

    Proof: There can be too much of a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by skilly-nilly View Post
    I guess if enough people cite the same bad scholarship that would qualify as "often".


    BUT WAIT!!!

    I just had an insight (unverified personal gnosis, anyone? )!!!!!

    If (as is attested to in lore) The Dagda has an enormous dingle then (colloquially) He is 'hung like a horse', neh?

    Thus making Him 'STALLION-LIKE' !!


    I think it's all representive of sovereignty.



    Still harping on other topic:

    We all hold to some UPG to varying degrees and it's dear to an individual. But the UPG of a certain author (who is known to have made false claims) has been copied seemingly unquestioned on many lists proporting to be based on myth with some historical merit or reference or in the least to be traditional (that dates sometime previous to say, 1994). It's just wrong to me and evidence of a problem.




  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightdragon View Post
    So far I found no other connections with Cernunnos and Uindos.

    although Uindos is mentioned :
    1. AES NEMETI - The Age of Nemetos (Sacred): "I am the sound of the Sea, I am a stag of seven points (Song of Amairgen)": The first Age, Krita Yuga, in which Four lakes, twelve plains are created. The calendar is set on the first night of the Uegilia Samoni (Samhain) and tributes are paid to the demons of the underworld, that are the Uomorioi. This is the Age of Water. The Dawn Stag is the first cause of manifestation during the creation of this Age, and it corresponds to the initial wave led by the Horse spirit. The world is ruled by Nemetos or Uindos (Fionn) in the East. This Age of Truth, the Golden Age, corresponds to the prime time. In this first wave are brought the four branches of knowledge, the Uidiia which contain the Four Druid sciences, such as logic, astronomy, natural sciences and grammar. Element: Water from the Eastern quarters from which comes Medus (Soma in Sanskrit).

    in this article:
    http://cura.free.fr/xv/14boutet.html

    Also on another messageboard they sited that a guy named Tom Cross wrote a book called Druidism . They said that Fin Mac Cumail and Gywnn Ap Nudd are later versions of a god named Vuindos or Uindos.
    I came across that first page as well. Thanks for reading it to find the Uindos reference, it was too much for me. I'd still like to know more about him.

    I think this goes back to what Seren said about archetypes. What matters is if you believe in them or not. Some systems are based on them. It's not the same as passing off UPG as something with traditional precedence, so I wouldn't want to give the impression my rant is directed at anyone who believes in archetypes or follows a system based on them.
    Last edited by _Banbha_; January 1st, 2007 at 03:37 PM.




  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightdragon View Post
    So far I found no other connections with Cernunnos and Uindos.

    although Uindos is mentioned :
    1. AES NEMETI - The Age of Nemetos (Sacred): "I am the sound of the Sea, I am a stag of seven points (Song of Amairgen)": The first Age, Krita Yuga, in which Four lakes, twelve plains are created. The calendar is set on the first night of the Uegilia Samoni (Samhain) and tributes are paid to the demons of the underworld, that are the Uomorioi. This is the Age of Water. The Dawn Stag is the first cause of manifestation during the creation of this Age, and it corresponds to the initial wave led by the Horse spirit. The world is ruled by Nemetos or Uindos (Fionn) in the East. This Age of Truth, the Golden Age, corresponds to the prime time. In this first wave are brought the four branches of knowledge, the Uidiia which contain the Four Druid sciences, such as logic, astronomy, natural sciences and grammar. Element: Water from the Eastern quarters from which comes Medus (Soma in Sanskrit).

    in this article:
    http://cura.free.fr/xv/14boutet.html

    Also on another messageboard they sited that a guy named Tom Cross wrote a book called Druidism . They said that Fin Mac Cumail and Gywnn Ap Nudd are later versions of a god named Vuindos or Uindos.
    Tom Cross is Tadhg MacCrossan apparently. I did a google the other night (yes, I was that bored). I'd never heard of him before, but from what I can gather he's held in the similar esteem as DJ Conway and Edain McCoy by many druids these days.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren_ View Post
    Tom Cross is Tadhg MacCrossan apparently. I did a google the other night (yes, I was that bored). I'd never heard of him before, but from what I can gather he's held in the similar esteem as DJ Conway and Edain McCoy by many druids these days.
    I'm thinking that when I come across some of these Celtic deity lists which include this:
    Epos Olloatir
    Description: Horse God often seen as either a male form of Epona or as her consort.
    Rules Over: Night, dream magic, horses.
    I'm going to e-mail the owner with a link to this thread. Let them do with the information what they will.




  6. #26
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    Well, let's talk about Cernunnos a minute. We really do not know a whole lot historically of who we are calling Cernunnos,
    That's a title-name given to them which is vague and questionable. The image we have of Cernunnos, is of some actual deity/character however we aren't sure who exactly it is as far as any name.
    so before we ask if there is any connection to Cernunnos, we need to consider who Cernunnos might be

    That said, and I'll leave most of my thoughts on his origin out of this.
    What do we know.
    The name we get from the 1st-century Pillar of the Boatmen. As far as I know we don't have any other artifacts depicting the name.
    There is an image of a horned figure on it however the horns are not antlers.
    Well unless you buy they are newly sprouted antlers. I'm not sure what they are.
    The image we associate with the name comes from the Gundestrup Cauldron.

    Boatman


    Cauldron


    So what do we know about the guy on the cauldron, well we know he has an underworld connection, that he has a friend and keeper of the wild beasts thing going on.

    If you ask me, he, like Pan is Indo-European and derivied from the same deity. That's not what this thread is about though, but keep that in mind regarding his possible connection to Uindos.
    Now, Uindos also goes by the name Vindos. Vindos is sometimes said to be Belenus, and also that he is Fion mac Cumhaill, whom is associated with male deer. Fionn is related to the Welsh Gwyn ap Nudd who is associated with both the underworld and the wild hunt. The connections are striking, he very well may be our Cernunnos figure.

    However I do not think the are exactly the same despite this. The root vin- is often sighted as "light" and "white"
    Fionn is often sighted as having the same meaning.
    Despite them both having a wild hunt and underworld connection, Cernunnos i've always see depicted as a bit darker.

    I've see in certain forms of traditional craft where Vindos is associated with the light half of the year and Cernunnos with the dark half.
    I believe there is something to that.

    Gwyn ap Nudd is said of have a blackend face. and this is where our underworld connection was largely coming from.
    There seems to something going on here between these contrasting colors.
    Yet Gwyn is also given as "fair, bright, white" dspite conflicting claims of his appearance.
    I think we do indeed have a divine twins theme going on here where the white and the black aspects are conflated...
    though if etymology holds up we only have so far, names for the white aspect.
    Because of this conflation however it may be that the underworld association doesn't refer to the one described as "light" and/or "white".

    not goinging down the route of thinking Cernnunos is a female - Sadbh, or the older form of her and Fionns son Oisin....

    Caílte mac Rónáin, Fionns nephew was said to be able to run at with very great speed and could talk to animals... sounds like a deer with an affinity for beasts to me...
    perhaps that is our Cernunnos.

    At this point it is important to look into any possible lead. The trail runs cold, what am I to do?- and keep in mind that these are not the pantheons i work with so my knowledge of them more limited.

    I know i am looking for the following.

    • The answer isnt "who is Vindos", it is "who is Cernunnos'
    • looking for 'black" or "dark" opposite of "white" and "light", referring to either a different character or a title indicating some re-association.
    • Underworld connection
    • animal affinity


    The Indo-European influence for both aforementioned accounts of Cernunnos is pretty clear, and I wouldn't even be trying to find an Irish or Welsh or what have you variant if i didn't see some Indo-European and Roman. that and the conflicting descriptions I've seen of Gwyn and what I've seen in traditional craft which while not purely re-constructionist, seems to have that notion as well. perhaps some of the conflicting descriptions are modern, i don't know. At some point these two were associated with each-other by somebody...and to be fair there are some striking similarities .

    Personally, and i was wanting to refrain from this... i really do see Cernunnos as having the same origin as pan, being imported from sailors and that he us indeed related,
    Here is the thing though, i see this as the case for figure on the Boatman not the cauldron. I mean I'm convinced they are both Indo-European, and the imagry of the antlered figure may have been brought the same way but I'm not convinced that we can say the character on the cauldron is Cernunnos. he might be, he may not be.

    However if we disregard Europe for a moment there is a Jupiter Cernunus.
    We really do not know anything about him either, however It is a clue... and if one of the characters on the cauldron is Tyranis, maybe our answer is with Jupiter Cernunos.
    on the cauldron we see a panel with a wheel and a figure with a horned helmet. we've seen these symbols with Jupiter, though without previous mention it would be a stretch.

    The following is from Val Camonica in Italy, dated to the fourth century BCE.


    It should be noted that there are images of Roman nature which may be Cernunnos, having many of the same characteristics but of which I'd like to get better images of.
    Mercury and Apollo are also found on a number of them- and, wherever they are often found there's a good chance you'll find pan as well.

    Here's an image from the Indus valley, there are others you can find elsewhere online,


    Here is the thing, With the cauldron, the proposal was that it was custom made made the Thracians.
    I don't think so, I don't think so.
    The information we have now indicates otherwise, that the image is not Celtic at least not originally.
    The Thracians were originally from the Indus valley. They migrated via sea-faring and ended up in the area they are associated with now, close to the Roman empire.
    We know many Thracian gods, customs and concepts made their way into roman culture and thrived.
    some may have continued further North however it is much more likely that if Cernunnos made it was through Roman culture, Etruscan artifacts included.

    We know roman gods influenced those more northern European cultures. the question is whether or not this Cernunnos was part of that influence, and how he was associated with or with someone associated with Vindos/Uindos. He certainly would have been a prime candidate for comparison.

    And-that's all I really want to invest in this thread right now.
    Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
    (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
    anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

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