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Thread: Uindos / Cernunnos connection?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WyldeDryad View Post
    Okay, do you know if the book has references beyond Matthews, who I wouldn't recommend either, to be honest. Is the information footnoted?
    would have gotten back sooner ,but i fell asleep. Anyhow nothing is footnoted in the book. Actually it's a pocket book of about 50 pgs. Caitlin matthews was taken from the Bibliography. He does give references to Alexander Carmichael for the Carmina Gadelica. There's a few more ,but i don`t think he used them as references.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skilly-nilly View Post
    I agree in suspecting the article. The author states that he is discussing the "high gods of the pagan Irish" and then calls them by Latinized names and lists one, Epona, who is specifically Gaulish and one, Epos Olloatir, to whom I can find no scholarly reference at all in a quick google.
    Me niether and I did a lot of searching.

    It's almost like a potato test:
    ot1h, use of 'Celtic' as a cultural definition
    otoh, poorly referenced with only doubtful researchers
    otgh, designating the Irish Pantheon as 'god of this' goddess of that' (it's never that simple) and doing it incorrectly to boot:
    Funny you mention potato test, when I saw the early 90's books he'd written, the Llewellyn Encyclopedia article, and the Epona mention slipped in as Irish, I thought he might be Edain McCoy's mentor.

    Caitlin Mathews is a fluid and moving writer; I have her 'book of Days'
    http://www.amazon.com/Celtic-Devotio...e=UTF8&s=books
    and love it) but she is not the best at separating upg from research. I would never quote any unreferenced historical statement of hers as fact.
    I love those books too and for the same reason. :D
    She is certainly a cut above due her skill and abilities. Her scholarship on myth is is certainly a cut above McCoy, et al. That's not worth an honest recommendation on this topic though.

    The whole Uindos/Cernunnos 'connection' smacks of poor neo-Pagan writing (can't call it scholarship yet until I see some) of a certain era about the Irish myth with blanks filled in with "?"'s and calling it a "'Celtic' religion." It's just disconnected by degrees. IMO, it smacks of 'Plastic Shamanism' even beyond the U/C question.

    [SIZE="2"]Alexei Kondratiev I am glad to reference as a scholar. He has an essay about Lúgh that (I think) shows the referencable Deities in a more Irish cultural light:

    http://www.mythicalireland.com/mytho...ade/lugus.html

    Nuadu's arm is healed, restoring his ability to wield sovereignty. When Lúgh (who has a Danann father and a Fomorian mother) returns from his fosterage and seeks to enter at the gates of Tara (the seat of sovereignty), one could say that he is politically superfluous to the Tuatha Dé Danann's plans; and he is told that none may enter Tara who does not possess a distinctive craft (since the Tuatha Dé Danann are an idealization of society, each one of them being the patron of a specific occupation). Lúgh's distinctiveness, however, is that he is master of all crafts: he is the Samildánach, the "Many-Gifted One". He alone (like Celtic "Mercury") can move between all the activities of society, and be the patron of each one, uniting the three functions. As such he supersedes all the narrowly functional deities (including Nuadu, who is "simply" king) and becomes the ideal defender of the Tribe against the chaotic powers of the Land.

    Even today, the spirit of Lugus pervades the Celtic world, second only to Brigit in significance and accessibility. Trickster, psychopomp, experimenter, mover between worlds, granter of success and wealth through intelligent manipulation, and granter of continuity through change, his many gifts remain at the disposal of those who trouble to seek him out.
    Ah...thank you. Alexei mentions Noudons once (referenced and footnoted) in that article, it's also on Imbas, and it was the only scholarship I could find even close to this question as of yet. I even came across a MW archive of an old Gingerwitch thread 2004 from google that begs this question with no anwser then too, lol. (That's a fun thread you might see me lurking, lol.)

    What I'm concerned about, and I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong by someone with a reference (por favor1!?), is that this unreferenced article has spread a little poop trail of inaccuracies across the web that many have posted unquestiongly. To see the evidence seemingly unfold before you (while suffering a headache to boot) is somewhat depressing.




  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightdragon View Post
    would have gotten back sooner ,but i fell asleep.Anyhow nothing is footnoted in the book. Actually it's a pocket book of about 50 pgs. Caitlin matthews was taken from the Bibliography. He does give references to Alexander Carmichael for the Carmina Gadelica. There's a few more ,but i don`t think he used them as references.
    Ah well, it's not surprising. I'm just looking at this now from a CR standpoint and being a stickler for accuracy. If someone 'feels' the connection, it's all good with me.




  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WyldeDryad View Post


    The whole Uindos/Cernunnos 'connection' smacks of poor neo-Pagan writing (can't call it scholarship yet until I see some) of a certain era about the Irish myth with blanks filled in with "?"'s and calling it a "'Celtic' religion." It's just disconnected by degrees. IMO, it smacks of 'Plastic Shamanism' even beyond the U/C question.



    Ah...thank you. Alexei mentions Noudons once (referenced and footnoted) in that article, it's also on Imbas, and it was the only scholarship I could find even close to this question as of yet. I even came across a MW archive of an old Gingerwitch thread 2004 from google that begs this question with no anwser then too, lol. (That's a fun thread you might see me lurking, lol.)

    What I'm concerned about, and I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong by someone with a reference (por favor1!?), is that this unreferenced article has spread a little poop trail of inaccuracies across the web that many have posted unquestiongly. To see the evidence seemingly unfold before you (while suffering a headache to boot) is somewhat depressing.
    I did a quick google as well and it only brought up the Llewellyn encyclopedia too. Always suspect when the references seem to go back to just one source that isn't too reputable itself - from a historically accurate point of view, that is.

    I suspect what's happened is that someone, somewhere has noted a similarity between Fionn and Cernunnos in that they both seem to be associated with hunting etc (and there seems to be something about antlers that is tapping at my head...) and the similarity has translated into their being 'the same as' in the context of an archetypal/pan-Celtic view of deities. Which is relevant if you believe in archetypes, of course, but misleading if you're going to present the information in a scholarly, historical way.
    Last edited by Seren_; December 31st, 2006 at 03:49 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren_ View Post
    I did a quick google as well and it only brought up the Llewellyn encyclopedia too. Always suspect when the references seem to go back to just one source that isn't too reputable itself - from a historically accurate point of view, that is.
    *Nods*

    I suspect what's happened is that someone, somewhere has noted a similarity between Fionn and Cernunnos in that they both seem to be associated with hunting etc (and there seems to be something about antlers that is tapping at my head...)and the similarity has translated into their being 'the same as' in the context of an archetypal/pan-Celtic view of deities. Which is relevant if you believe in archetypes, of course, but misleading if you're going to present the information in a scholarly, historical way.
    That's probably what happened. I'm very interested in horned figures as well (points to sig) but the confusion in that article is notable and a shame for beginners to read. I'm not shy of actual connections within the various 'Celtic' cultures. But they need references. Archetypes, I agree do not mean that much on a personal or scholarly level.




  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by skilly-nilly View Post
    I agree in suspecting the article. The author states that he is discussing the "high gods of the pagan Irish" and then calls them by Latinized names and lists one, Epona, who is specifically Gaulish and one, Epos Olloatir, to whom I can find no scholarly reference at all in a quick google.
    I suspect Epos Olloatir might be related to Eochaid Ollathair, an epithet for the Dagda, who I've seen equated with Cernunnos in places. Eochaid is etymologically related to "echu", meaning horse, which would relate to the Gaulish equivalent that gives us Epona's name. I'm not sure of the Gaulish root word (Nantonos would).

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren_ View Post
    I suspect Epos Olloatir might be related to Eochaid Ollathair, an epithet for the Dagda, who I've seen equated with Cernunnos in places. Eochaid is etymologically related to "echu", meaning horse, which would relate to the Gaulish equivalent that gives us Epona's name. I'm not sure of the Gaulish root word (Nantonos would).
    Is there lore that connects The Dagda with horses and gives Him horns/antlers?

    I am only familiar with the wheeled club, the bad shoes and the big dingle, myself.
    *I am a mystic and work through Imbas rather than re-constructive archeology. Lore, history, and research are vital tools and permit us to validate and amplify communications we recieve. Disagreement and referencing of materials are also welcome benchmarks. What I say is not the 'Truth' but only my perception/opinion/belief and I am happy to give the same consideration to everyone else's point of view.*

    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

    "everyone [is] entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." Stephen Colbert

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren_ View Post
    I suspect Epos Olloatir might be related to Eochaid Ollathair, an epithet for the Dagda, who I've seen equated with Cernunnos in places. Eochaid is etymologically related to "echu", meaning horse, which would relate to the Gaulish equivalent that gives us Epona's name. I'm not sure of the Gaulish root word (Nantonos would).

    An Dagda
    AHN DAY-ah

    Irish: "The Good God", probably from *dago devas, though some early texts give the incorrect etymology of dag dae "good hand" (skillful hand, prefiguring Lugh), or daeg dia "god of fire"

    A.K.A. Eochu Ollathair "Horse All-Father", Ruadh Rofhessa "Red One Great in Knowledge"

    He had the cauldron the Un-dry, which never went empty, and a magic club which could heal on one side and kill on the other, and a magic harp called Daur-da-bla "Oak of two greens" and Coir-cethar-chuir "Four-angled music." According to The Taking of the Sidhe (refering to how Oengus won Brugh na Boinne), he was the protector of corn and milk, and according to The Wooing of Etain, he was the controller of weather and crops. In the same text, para. 18, he is named one of "the three gods of Dana, namely Lug and the Dagda, and Ogma."...

    ...Some scholars have also connected him to Sucellos, the good striker of Gaulish religion, because of his magic club; certainly this is possible, and both the Dagda and Sucellos have been tentatively tied to Dis Pater, who Caesar says was the ancestor of the Gauls; this would connect to the Dagda's status as "all-father."
    Mary Jones


    The only the thing I found on searching Epos Olloatir was this poem, the Llewellyn article and pages of this on god lists almost identical on each one.

    Epos Olloatir
    Description: Horse God often seen as either a male form of Epona or as her consort.
    Rules Over: Night, dream magic, horses.


    But on MW Ceffyle made a great post on the topic:
    http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost....80&postcount=7 Post http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=89676 thread

    Just as I suspected. :hehehehe:


    Article on Dagda now making definitive claims:
    He is often equated with the Romano-Celtic god Cernunnos, and other Horned/Antered Primordial deities. And with my history with him, I've learned there's more to that notion than opinion.
    Alrighty then, but no references. Again.



    Quote Originally Posted by skilly-nilly View Post
    Is there lore that connects The Dagda with horses and gives Him horns/antlers?

    I am only familiar with the wheeled club, the bad shoes and the big dingle, myself.
    Peninsula?
    Last edited by _Banbha_; December 31st, 2006 at 11:53 PM. Reason: fix link




  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by skilly-nilly View Post
    Is there lore that connects The Dagda with horses and gives Him horns/antlers?

    I am only familiar with the wheeled club, the bad shoes and the big dingle, myself.
    There's no specific lore associating him with horses, except for the name, I believe. *Although come to think of it his shoes are said to have been of horsehair, worn with the hair on the outside, during the episode where he's just gorged himself on a lot of porridge and then meets the Fomorian king's daughter, Indech in the Battle of Mag Tured. The general purpose of the description of his attire - including an indecently short tunic - appears to be to emphasise his churlish state, the fact that he is currently unable to function in the way he normally would upon meeting a beautiful woman. Taking a rather large dump in a pit that mirrors the one the Fomorians made for all the porridge they gave sorts that out.

    Eochaid may mean "horseman", and horses in general are often associated with sovereignty and kingship, implying an aspect of divine function for the Dagda, perhaps. There's no lore relating him with horns or antlers that I can think of, I think the connection to Cernunnos generally comes from their associations with fertility and plenty.

    Oh, and it's been suggested that his huge club is actually a euphemism for his big dingle
    Last edited by Seren_; January 1st, 2007 at 10:01 AM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by WyldeDryad View Post
    Article on Dagda now making definitive claims:
    Quote:
    He is often equated with the Romano-Celtic god Cernunnos, and other Horned/Antered Primordial deities. And with my history with him, I've learned there's more to that notion than opinion.
    Alrighty then, but no references. Again.
    I guess if enough people cite the same bad scholarship that would qualify as "often".


    BUT WAIT!!!

    I just had an insight (unverified personal gnosis, anyone? )!!!!!

    If (as is attested to in lore) The Dagda has an enormous dingle then (colloquially) He is 'hung like a horse', neh?

    Thus making Him 'STALLION-LIKE' !!
    *I am a mystic and work through Imbas rather than re-constructive archeology. Lore, history, and research are vital tools and permit us to validate and amplify communications we recieve. Disagreement and referencing of materials are also welcome benchmarks. What I say is not the 'Truth' but only my perception/opinion/belief and I am happy to give the same consideration to everyone else's point of view.*

    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

    "everyone [is] entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." Stephen Colbert

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