Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6
Results 51 to 53 of 53

Thread: The Crossroads

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    West Virginia
    Age
    59
    Posts
    3,442
    Quote Originally Posted by DracoJesi View Post
    Sorita's stuff is solid, and she gives her sources so if you have access to that material there you go..
    The fourfold and threefold crossroads interect. The three corrosponds to the axis mundi, the four to the four directions.
    Nominally Hekate is associated with the three-fold crossroads and Hermes the four-fold but both can move through both and you can swirch the association to be the inverse side of what is going on. Really we should be talking about which forms of Hekate and Hermes we are talking about as different mysteries are expressed therein.
    That's why I was asking for sources. Though I never see Hekate equated to a four fold way in any archaic source material, she's always either at specific boundary points (giving 2 directional) or Y cross-roads. Even in the existing Chaldean lore I do not see her connected to a four fold pathway though on rare occasion is she depicted as a four headed being that really doesn't equate to a four directional equation. The only time I can think of any sort of world tree influence is some associations where she is demonized within Crowleys works but some might argue then it's not the goddess but a demonized version at that point. I've seen some attempts to try a four fold imagery when conflating her with Triformus and Diana Nemorensis and Lake Nemi but there it is clearly a three figure representation even if you try to include a potential 4th placement of the Rex Nemorensis before it is moved back to Orthia along with other aspect of the Orestes influence. But admit I don't focus to much on the neo-pagan representation of Hekate, especially the crone aspect, but more so on the Hellene version.

    In its simplest form, the stang is merely a forced branch of two or three prongs and the relence here is that it represents the world tree/axis and its connection to the number three. I dont know anything about the reclaimist movement. Im not sure what your issue is with the scred fires but that isnt my beef and I dont really care. Im not a memeber of the CoH but I do practice that rite every year and am friends with Sorita,, when I can vett for as doing her research and being hesitant to make absolute claims and have no problem using her as a source. Frankly Id rather have people read her work than to take the time to do what she has already done here.
    Don't have an issue with the Sacred Fire just trying to identify where the material provided is being drawn from. Regarding the world tree that's debatable equation for the stang I know pow wow uses it, Blue Ridge folk and Granny practices use it and other's use it and it had nothing to do with the world tree. From my Scottish ancestry sure didn't come down that line either as the world tree. While it might be for some doesn't mean it is for all, same with the idea of the Y in the apple core being a witches mark.

    From a philosophical point of view we are talking about the vericle and horizontal here and they are different demisnions of the same thing and the crossroads is the crossroads of both. The Greeks and Romans understood this, it is not anew concept. It is inherent within the very concept of space and any culture with even a basic understand of geometry knows this.
    Again sources please. Doesn't match what i've read not saying it's wrong but Hekate and Hermes where connected to the Y crossroads due to their Chthonic influences and death / restless dead. It also ties into the notion that both the Hellene's and Roman's had regarding civilized and wilderness areas and how it influenced their societies. One could also tie it back into the notion of the Gorgon's and placement of their imagery upon the pediments of temples and sanctuaries to keep baneful spirits at bay. That whole danger to travelers, danger in the uncivilized areas, bad juju and dark magics (the whole story of Medea and Circe for instance)

    what's more is if you go from a space of the four, through the verticle to another space again being the four... what you have is represented by the symbol of the fourfold crossroads on top and bottom of a verticle line. A reflected image, and if you think of of reflection you have a reversed image. So in that other space Hekate is the four and Hermes would be the three. The disntions we use are from our point of view.
    Here it sounds like your trying to use the later ceremonial / high magics grimorical practices to define space more so than the Hellen / Roman systems. Maybe a bit of the Greek magical paprya but admit it's been awhile since I read that but don't recall it being there.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Greencastle IN
    Age
    28
    Posts
    3,223
    Alright I apparently can't highlight and copy text on the device I'm on so i'll respong to each sub-response in number.

    I. You wouldnt see her associated so much with the four-fold crossroads. That wasn't the emphasis. I was explaining why Hermes can also move along that verticle, the 3 and the four have the same center.. the roads are connected but if you are at a physical representation of the three or four ways you are seeing the three or the more.... but you arestill working with the liminal space where roads meet. The three can and often is two dimensional but it was also associated with the three domains rules be Zues, Hades and Poseidon. Heakte being the queen of Heaven, Hell and Earth and not even Zues challanged her authority. When she was inporated into the Olympic story she was a Titan who unlike the others kept her power because she was that which kepts those domains in their proper place. Hekatos is an epithet of Apollo, Apollo was very closely related to Maercury/Hermes in the exchange of roles. Both Hekatos and and Hekate have the root Heka 'far' as in 'far darting' and what would later be coined 'action at a distance'. This was symbolized by the arrow and bow which you see with both Hekatos and Diana whom when conflated with Hekate was Diana Lucifera. Lucifer was very much a combination of Hermes and Apollo. Now Heaktos was given to a Titan who worked with Hekate in that story of her Titan ship and presumably he was also allowed to to remain as the forge of the gods but he fell into obscurity, the title was given to Apollo and Vulcan/Haephaestus eventually replaced him as the blacksmith god. You have themese of primal fire and the verticle axis of worlds that Hekate is known for.

    I don't associate Hekate with the four-ways, I associate that with Hermes but they work together. Now Hekate is older than this Olympian worldview and if you don't incorproate her with the Olympian gods you are likely to see it a bid differently.

    Crowleys relationship with Hekate was interesting to say the least and by his accounts they didn't seem to always get along however she is not outright a demon in his system...

    II.That was my mistake then, I mis-read the use of 'so called'. The inference is there and it is sometimes used as a world axis in Applachian witchcraft as a world axis but not by many as they have no need to. Most mountain witches wether thy be granny or something else entirely practice folk medicine... they don't practice anything so ceremonial as to formally address directions in a work. Some do, especially if they are drawing on tribal sources from the region that did incorporate a central axis. For example Im Cherokee and so in my mountain witchcraft I do have a central axis because we did have a mountain we travels up and down... It has ties to the snake which interesting enough has a forked tongue. Our ceremonies come out of the mound-building cultures before us which have connections to mesoamerican tribes which do use a forked branch for there tree but it is shown as a T not a Y..... but even in the'old' world we see the stang Y and T cross serving the same function. So depending on the mountain witch, and we are all different because thats how it is... sometimes we do use it for a world axis.

    -and many of us use Ash for te rod of stang because it is a wood between worlds. The ash rod would be hung above doorways and other inbetweens to protect against things coming through. Because when made out of wood there are given formulas for a stang.

    As Ive said I know nothing of the reclaiming tradition but the apple and the snake are both symbols of gnosis, and there is the notion of 'the snake on the tree' and the apple being the fruit eaten of that tree. Christ was depicted as a snake on the T cross, on the tree and the Hebrew word Messiah has a gematria value of 358 same as hebrew name for the serpent on the tree. Thats were that symbolism came from... as for Heakte there was a period when gnostism did greatly influence hellenistic mysteries schools and the image of Hekate as well. Especially at the cross[roads]. You have to remember that all these influences met at the intersection of Roman culture , and likewise many ideas would be communicated at intersections.

    III. http://www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/p...ethod=standard
    Talks of Hermes and the Number four, and isn't a site catering to modern Paganism.

    IV. Well where do you think all those ceremonial practice come from? Most come from Latin sources. The more you look at the magic of the lower classes of that region and era the more you wont see it. The higher social classes includes far more philosophy and complex theological subtlety. Again you had the interesection of Greco-Roman philosophers, common religious praxis, and hellenistic sorcercy. I have to disagree though that a verticle axis is somthing you see moreso in High Magick. In so far as establishing that direction in the working space. You see that more in tribal cultures and traditional witchcraft where one is apt to actually travel the axis.

    In Kabbalah it would be climbed in meditative practices, as a latter or staircase most often yet in ceremonial operatioons wasn't so often used.
    The eception is with the Golden Dawn and orders that have followed suit as they to travel the paths on the otz chim... however in operations they still dont have a much representation defining the space. There is no pentagram above or below for example. They do aline themselves with the tree with the Qabbalistic cross so there is the understanding that the verticle is still there and the human being is the microcosm thereof- however in circle you don't clime up or down this axis to go to the underworld or the heavens. If you understand how the LBRP banishes the elements to centerdness you realize they do go through the center to the inner place of the hexagram to do those rites- and you do go within to then go up or down but it isn't emphasized in the same way . Also, in that system the quarter attributions are used to denote where you are and these are mapped on the Kabbalistic tree so that they use the round and center point to otherwise map where they are on the verticle. You do make not of the four directions but that is also the cross that binds the center point to the circle so really the focus is on inner and outer space and mapping that. The central collum is noted in the LBRP 'for within me/within the collum stands the six-fold star though that collumn isn't work. You could, especially as a Merkabah meditation. Though going up or down the verticle is more often of a compass instead of a circle, especially as you haven't defined a barrior to the space, level you areon. I personally do acknowedge and work a verticle in the way I do circles but my circle expands to encompass the given sphere. That is not what most Ceremonial Magicians are doing. -and what when I do that it is very different than going into or traveling the verticle normally because I am expanding the sphere/circle so its verticle becomes ever more the verticle of the world axis/tree.

    May your adepts have their head in the highest heaven and their feet in the lowest hells
    I find what I do to be better suited to the Solar/Inner Fire focus of the work of the adept, and Crowleys paradigm which uniting the best of both worlds in mediation. My fire and my crossroads grow to encompass the dynamis and pathworking of each of the spheres. I should also note that Hekate has been very helpful showing me how much of this fits together and at the same time se will show one things that are for them even though if they aren't nessisarily of her..or how most understand her. My understanding of the verticle is going to be different because my space manifests different due to my culture but she is very much of that dynamic and has had much to teach me about it.
    Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
    (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
    anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    West Virginia
    Age
    59
    Posts
    3,442
    Quote Originally Posted by DracoJesi View Post
    Alright I apparently can't highlight and copy text on the device I'm on so i'll respong to each sub-response in number.

    I. You wouldnt see her associated so much with the four-fold crossroads. That wasn't the emphasis. I was explaining why Hermes can also move along that verticle, the 3 and the four have the same center.. the roads are connected but if you are at a physical representation of the three or four ways you are seeing the three or the more.... but you arestill working with the liminal space where roads meet. The three can and often is two dimensional but it was also associated with the three domains rules be Zues, Hades and Poseidon. Heakte being the queen of Heaven, Hell and Earth and not even Zues challanged her authority. When she was inporated into the Olympic story she was a Titan who unlike the others kept her power because she was that which kepts those domains in their proper place. Hekatos is an epithet of Apollo, Apollo was very closely related to Maercury/Hermes in the exchange of roles. Both Hekatos and and Hekate have the root Heka 'far' as in 'far darting' and what would later be coined 'action at a distance'. This was symbolized by the arrow and bow which you see with both Hekatos and Diana whom when conflated with Hekate was Diana Lucifera. Lucifer was very much a combination of Hermes and Apollo. Now Heaktos was given to a Titan who worked with Hekate in that story of her Titan ship and presumably he was also allowed to to remain as the forge of the gods but he fell into obscurity, the title was given to Apollo and Vulcan/Haephaestus eventually replaced him as the blacksmith god. You have themese of primal fire and the verticle axis of worlds that Hekate is known for.
    The thing there though is Hekate is never conflated with Diana Lucifera. She (Hekate) is only conflated with Diana Nemorensis at lake Nemi. Diana Lucifera is probably a closer representation of the original Roman version of Diana and depicted on the coins of the late Roman Republic period and Imperial Period and minted in Italy and shown with one or two long torches. But it is not pertaining to the torches that are associated with Hekate in her role as the light bearer or lampadorous. Additionally Diana Lucifera is seldom if ever actually equated to the bow and arrow but equated to the torch and maybe spear. As an image on the coins of the late Roman Republic period 20 bc to the Imperial Period 27 BC to 476 AD where she also seen as Luna Lucifera or occasionally Juno Lucifera though that aspect is less common. Then one could go further in that Hekate enters Roman lore via two points, one through Sicily via her association to the connection to Demeter and Persephone and their temples / sanctuaries there. The other would be through Lake Nemi and the Orestes story and it's influence upon the elder Diana sanctuary there and the Artemis Taurpolis influences that will take place there. Possibly some influence via the influence upon Etruscan culture in the southern area of Italy by the presence of Hellene presences and settlements which can be proven by the likes of Artumes for instance.

    But still not seeing a four system in archaic Rome or Hellene systems or world view.

    I don't associate Hekate with the four-ways, I associate that with Hermes but they work together. Now Hekate is older than this Olympian worldview and if you don't incorproate her with the Olympian gods you are likely to see it a bid differently.
    With what I know of Hellene and Roman society and such still do not see a four-way system at any point. There is no four world system in the composition of their cosmology.

    Crowleys relationship with Hekate was interesting to say the least and by his accounts they didn't seem to always get along however she is not outright a demon in his system..
    .

    But she is more of a demon than a goddess in his system.

    II.That was my mistake then, I mis-read the use of 'so called'. The inference is there and it is sometimes used as a world axis in Applachian witchcraft as a world axis but not by many as they have no need to. Most mountain witches wether thy be granny or something else entirely practice folk medicine... they don't practice anything so ceremonial as to formally address directions in a work. Some do, especially if they are drawing on tribal sources from the region that did incorporate a central axis. For example Im Cherokee and so in my mountain witchcraft I do have a central axis because we did have a mountain we travels up and down... It has ties to the snake which interesting enough has a forked tongue. Our ceremonies come out of the mound-building cultures before us which have connections to mesoamerican tribes which do use a forked branch for there tree but it is shown as a T not a Y..... but even in the'old' world we see the stang Y and T cross serving the same function. So depending on the mountain witch, and we are all different because thats how it is... sometimes we do use it for a world axis.
    Just my opinion but I tend to think folk and granny practices fall into two categories. Both have roots in herbal lore and witchcraft but I think they also stem from two different roots. Some birth from imported influences such as Germanic or Scottish but also have a strong Christian flavoring to them. Still have lots of roots, barks, leaves, salves, poltices, and such but also signs and symbols that have religious attachments. I know the Scots-Irish brought in lots of that as well as the Penns-Dutch and others who were along the blue-ridge and interacted with the various Native American nations in the early years. Then you have the Hoodoo, Santeria, Voodun or other Afro-caribbean / New Orleans & delta type practices that brought in those influences but have a different social / ethnic foundation. Of course there are regional differences as people adapted to their environment and learnt new plants, allies, etc which changed the two general categories.

    But I would still disagree about the idea of world tree's and such except to the extent that some of your native peoples might have societies whose methods involved passing on the stories and tales of the nations histories and stories. Sort of like the European notion of the Bards of old. Some of the people i've spoken to have told me under certain Vision Question or Sweet Lodge type situations tales and calling forth certain guides or spirits to aide might be part of the ritual. I know in some shamanic like healing situations where you go into the other worlds travelling the realms or axis is important but that is not for everyone and those who are participating who be going through a number of preparing rituals and ceremonies along with whomever has agreed to be responsible for them during the process.

    Interesting I've always heard snake represents rebirth and change and growing from one body into another. That's why he is special for he dies (hides under ground in the winter and appears dead) comes forth in the spring, sheds his old skin his eyes are blinded as the old ways (old skin and past) clouds his vision, then falls away and reveals with a new clarity and the truth is revealed and you see the truth of his change by the skin that has been left behind and the struggle he has gone through to make the change happen. Yet his forked tongue reminds us that there are always two truths, the correct truth and the lie which sounds like a truth. That it's always moving and testing to see which is the truth and which is the lie

    -and many of us use Ash for te rod of stang because it is a wood between worlds. The ash rod would be hung above doorways and other inbetweens to protect against things coming through. Because when made out of wood there are given formulas for a stang.
    Stangs were never a big part of my heritage so really can't speak on them that much. I know they had different wood for different purposes but in my family it was the girls who were taught stang lore not the boys. I know ash was not used to much especially since ash tree's had suffered a blight a number of years ago in our area and never really recovered.

    As Ive said I know nothing of the reclaiming tradition but the apple and the snake are both symbols of gnosis, and there is the notion of 'the snake on the tree' and the apple being the fruit eaten of that tree. Christ was depicted as a snake on the T cross, on the tree and the Hebrew word Messiah has a gematria value of 358 same as hebrew name for the serpent on the tree. Thats were that symbolism came from... as for Heakte there was a period when gnostism did greatly influence hellenistic mysteries schools and the image of Hekate as well. Especially at the cross[roads]. You have to remember that all these influences met at the intersection of Roman culture , and likewise many ideas would be communicated at intersections.
    An apple being the fruit is actually pretty new near as I recall. The older idea is the fruit would have been a fig consider where it was at, if not a fig then an olive. But either way once you start trying to bring gnosticism into the picture your looking generally at the late 2nd century A.D. onward. So for all intent and purpose Christian Rome is rising and Pagan Rome has fallen and the last remnants of the old world is pretty much gone. Lagina has started it's final spiral into destruction and by 3rd century will basically be a memory. Hekate will have two faces in Rome at this time, One face will basically be the Chaldean face with her being the world soul and dispatcher of daemons to either punish or inspire the other face will be the dark goddess of witches and sorcery that will pretty much become the face the church will push and I suppose you could say will become the crone image of today.

    IV. Well where do you think all those ceremonial practice come from? Most come from Latin sources. The more you look at the magic of the lower classes of that region and era the more you wont see it. The higher social classes includes far more philosophy and complex theological subtlety. Again you had the interesection of Greco-Roman philosophers, common religious praxis, and hellenistic sorcercy. I have to disagree though that a verticle axis is somthing you see moreso in High Magick. In so far as establishing that direction in the working space. You see that more in tribal cultures and traditional witchcraft where one is apt to actually travel the axis.
    But here your back to that issue with most of this is coming in around the 3rd century and later. World tree's and axis is present in religious context in earlier culture's but it's not outside of the priest / priestess class or restricted groups. As such it's not getting wide spread and discussion. The 3rd century and onward will see the religious ideal and concepts of soul, afterlife, nature of man, salvation, etc get questioned which challenges the prevailing ideals and that is in part what causes much of the ideals to be pushed into the open and things to be questioned and challenged.

    I find what I do to be better suited to the Solar/Inner Fire focus of the work of the adept, and Crowleys paradigm which uniting the best of both worlds in mediation. My fire and my crossroads grow to encompass the dynamis and pathworking of each of the spheres. I should also note that Hekate has been very helpful showing me how much of this fits together and at the same time se will show one things that are for them even though if they aren't nessisarily of her..or how most understand her. My understanding of the verticle is going to be different because my space manifests different due to my culture but she is very much of that dynamic and has had much to teach me about it.
    How she manifest to each of us or makes our paths work definitely is her choice. Like a teacher she chooses the method and material that best allows or enables her to reach her student or subject I think. I know for me Hekate had gone to great length to ensure I am aware of the ticks of time as things changed to understand her and she how things changed. Well understand as best I can, doesn't mean I am always right which is why i always ask questions or ask for sources. Many times I just enjoy deep discussions that make me think and for that I thank you.

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •