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Thread: What constitutes a non-Wiccan Witch?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet Soul30 View Post
    I was repeating what Laurie Cabot said. She said that there's no such thing as a Wiccan and that there's no such thing as Wicca. Laurie has been practicing for a very long time and so I respect what she says and I believe what she says.

    I'm a witch and not a Wiccan. I don't mind hexing people as long as I know that their guilty, as there's proof presented in a court of law, and I don't mind cursing people. I don't cast a circle because of the fact that my mother comes in and asks me to do things. I also don't cast a circle because I don't feel the energy of the circle.

    I also think that casting a circle is a waste of time. I said that if I need to cast a circle I do it mentally but that's once every five years. I'm fine not casting a circle or calling quarters. I don't believe in harming none, I'm a witch that gets things done.

    I don't like things turning into a debate because this site is very much against that. I think that if you want to debate this that you should go to the debate section. I'm not going to defend my reasons for what I do, how I cast my magic, or what kind of witchcraft that I do. I like how Laurie Cabot practices and if I was living up in Salem I would join her coven.
    I read some of Laurie Cabot's writing and she is a Wiccan, even if she claims otherwise. She can call herself whatever she wants but even a cursory reading of her writings indicates that she is Wiccan ie. a practitioner of an eclectic and syncretic faith/practice rooted, even if loosely, in the works of Gerald Gardener, Doreen Valiente and Raymond Buckland.

    I can call myself an amazonian princess but it doesn't make me one.

    I don't always cast a circle (though usually I do), don't believe the Threefold law is particularly valid and sometimes only celebrate Sabbats and/or Esbats with light ritual and heavy meditation. I am also very shamanic in my practice. According to Ms. Cabot I am not a Wiccan either I guess.

    I would recommend reading up on Jung and Joseph Campbell in regards to symbolism. Even if you don't find it useful to cast a circle and work with other "official" Wiccan symbolism, your subconscious mind has a use for such things. Over time, something clicks in the inner-mind in regards to consistantly used symbols and you can find yourself with access to levels of your consciousness and power beyond which you are accustomed.

    Laurie Cabot, who I see as a bit of a loveable crank, is wrong.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Chris
    Come visit my blog

    Sorcery and Spirit

    where I discuss Magick, Mystical Spirituality and whatever else comes to mind.

    " Wherever you are is home
    And the earth is paradise
    Wherever you set your feet is holy land . . .
    You don't live off it like a parasite.
    You live in it, and it in you,
    Or you don't survive.
    And that is the only worship of God there is."

    - Wilfred Pelletier and Ted Poole

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet Soul30 View Post
    Thanks for your comment Snapdragon. It's so nice to see someone keeping on topic. One of the reasons that I'm not a Wiccan is that it's been hijacked by the Witchlings. Now I'm not insulting teens that actually travel the path but I am talking about those that do Wicca to be cool or it's hip. Also lets add to shock their parents.

    I had always assumed, for those that are Wiccan, that it was a serious path. Also I'm not even going to go into the books. If I did I would probably get a headache. Now you know mainly why, aside from ritual and magic, why I'm not a Wiccan but a witch.
    Well at least you are forthright in your reasoning. However, if most of what you do falls into the category of traditional Wiccan praxis then why not help to reclaim Wicca from the little witchlings as you call them (LOL by the way). I am not "fluffy" (hate the term but use it here as an easy reference) but I am still Wiccan.

    My blog is about reclaiming depth in Wiccan spiritual practice. I would prefer to take the name Wicca back from bad pop-Wiccandom and help it to be a respected faith tradtion than to abandon it. Maybe we can help the witchlings deepen their practice instead of leaving them to blow in the wind.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Christopher
    Come visit my blog

    Sorcery and Spirit

    where I discuss Magick, Mystical Spirituality and whatever else comes to mind.

    " Wherever you are is home
    And the earth is paradise
    Wherever you set your feet is holy land . . .
    You don't live off it like a parasite.
    You live in it, and it in you,
    Or you don't survive.
    And that is the only worship of God there is."

    - Wilfred Pelletier and Ted Poole

  3. #53
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    for me, not believing in the religion.

    Witchcraft was around long before Wicca, Wicca came from Witchcraft so of course there are going to be some things that are similar. However for most, Wicca is a religion while Witchcraft is not.

    non Wiccan witch here because I do not believe in the religion.

  4. #54
    herbal_legends Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Sundragon View Post
    Well at least you are forthright in your reasoning. However, if most of what you do falls into the category of traditional Wiccan praxis then why not help to reclaim Wicca from the little witchlings as you call them (LOL by the way). I am not "fluffy" (hate the term but use it here as an easy reference) but I am still Wiccan.

    My blog is about reclaiming depth in Wiccan spiritual practice. I would prefer to take the name Wicca back from bad pop-Wiccandom and help it to be a respected faith tradtion than to abandon it. Maybe we can help the witchlings deepen their practice instead of leaving them to blow in the wind.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Christopher

    I don't think anyone can reclaim it...the damage has been done lol. The only way I see it happening is if a new name is come up with...and/or something branches from the Wicca that everyone knows today. As horrible at it sounds....there's already a need for Wiccan reconstructionism hahaha

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbal_legends View Post
    I don't think anyone can reclaim it...the damage has been done lol. The only way I see it happening is if a new name is come up with...and/or something branches from the Wicca that everyone knows today. As horrible at it sounds....there's already a need for Wiccan reconstructionism hahaha
    LOL Wiccan Reconstructionism. No thanks, we have way too many IMO reconstructionisms going on right now as it is. I have no desire to see the Gardenerian Tradition of Wicca paraded around as a the One True Faith or the One Right Way.

    Consider this though, some of the best witchy authors consider themselves Wiccan. Christopher Penczak, David Rankine, Phyllis Curott, T. Thorn Coyle (Feri is a Wiccan tradition I believe), Lipp, and others are firmly in the Wiccan camp even if they aren't little Charmed/Harry Potteresque witchlings. They all have different styles, but they are certainly not fluffy...as in airheaded/lacking in knowledge/pollyanna.

    Of the non-Wicca Witches I have known they may not be white-light fluffy but they can be fluffy in their own way...the whole I'm dark and deep thing. Just as likely to be all style and no substance as any fluffy Wiccan they just prefer shadows. I even knew a couple vampire and satanic witches...so dark, so brooding, so cheesy.

    Wiccans don't corner the market on empty style vs. substance practitioners or posers who like being witchy and dress up in robes without knowing their magickal ass from a hole in the ground. All magickal and mystical paths attract these kinds Wicca is just the most popular.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Chris
    Last edited by Sundragon; September 25th, 2010 at 11:03 PM.
    Come visit my blog

    Sorcery and Spirit

    where I discuss Magick, Mystical Spirituality and whatever else comes to mind.

    " Wherever you are is home
    And the earth is paradise
    Wherever you set your feet is holy land . . .
    You don't live off it like a parasite.
    You live in it, and it in you,
    Or you don't survive.
    And that is the only worship of God there is."

    - Wilfred Pelletier and Ted Poole

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundragon View Post
    I'm sincerely curious because I see this rift between Wiccans and non-Wiccan Witches and was wondering where the differences lie. I always thought that we used largely the same source materials from Gardener, to Valiente, to Leek, to Rankine, the Farrars and Penczak. If it is different from Wicca, what is the source material for Traditional Witchcraft?
    Traditional witchcraft comes from just that, tradition. No two witches practice the same. Their beliefs come from family and/or within. There are no true books on traditional witchcraft as if anyone wrote down how they do things, it would just be that, how they do things and would not speak for any other traditional witches. Most of tradition will look at those authors you listed and laugh a bit. We'll skim through those books and try to see if there's anything of interest, but for the most part, we try to forget we read it. We do research every branch of witchcraft there is, like Voodoo, Kabbalah, Thelma, etc. and especially folk magic and old folk lore also known to some as Hoodoo.

    I personally learned the basis of my craft from my great grandmother who was Cherokee and what most would consider a shaman. She taught me from a very early age. From there I got to learn Irish folk magic, New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo from other relatives. I was encouraged to learn as much as I could, especially by my mother who doesn't practice but told me if I was going to be a witch, I'd better be a well rounded one and s I did. I look every where for information. I know the use of herbs and plants not only from a magical standpoint in one tradition or idea but several as well as the medical uses and Chinese medicine as well. I've looked at every piece of information on magic I can find from like the Black Pullet to books written today, though I will say that Wicca really turns me away.

    To sum up a bit of what traditional witches believe, I'll give you a link to a wonderful website where many traditional witches gather.

    http://www.traditionalwitch.net/foru...-by-startella/

    From this article you can tell, there's various beliefs. Not one trad witch can speak for another. As for Wicca, it's a religion so everyone believes in something similar to each other.

  7. #57
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    Kage put it very well, for Trad. Witches its not about the religion/magic Wicca holds, its about..well, tradition and what we are taught, what we learn and using what works for us. It can be a little bit of this or a little but of that.

    Keep in mind, that Trad. site, does not welcome Wiccans on it.

    'tis a good read though.

  8. #58
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    Traditional Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, and an orthopraxy. Upon initiation into Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft(Wicca), one becomes a "Witch."

    If one associates with Wicca's (Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft's) outercourt information, and wants to call themselves Wiccan, I'm not going to necessarily say that they're not, regardless of what I believe, because it's a controversial high-jacked term, but I will say it's a whole different issue when neo-Wiccans try to define what Wicca is, and isn't, especially when they don't have knowledge of it's innercourt mysteries, and this includes a lot of so called "Wiccan" authors
    Semper Fidelis

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kagekarasu View Post
    Traditional witchcraft comes from just that, tradition. No two witches practice the same. Their beliefs come from family and/or within. There are no true books on traditional witchcraft as if anyone wrote down how they do things, it would just be that, how they do things and would not speak for any other traditional witches.
    Basically you are speaking of something similar to the cunning man/woman practices of Britain. Each practitioner was unique in regards to their practice though many did similar work.

    Most of tradition will look at those authors you listed and laugh a bit. We'll skim through those books and try to see if there's anything of interest, but for the most part, we try to forget we read it. We do research every branch of witchcraft there is, like Voodoo, Kabbalah, Thelma, etc. and especially folk magic and old folk lore also known to some as Hoodoo.
    To be fair, to call Kabbalah, Thelema and Voodoo "witchcraft" is a bit of a stretch. I only say this because these are completely distinct traditions and practices rooted in their own map of reality. Are you speaking of lifting the effective techniques from the above mentioned traditions/practices? If this is what you mean than you are lifting "what works" practically from these traditions I'll go along. Not different at all from what Wiccans do all the time.

    So basically, Traditional Witchcraft weaves into itself effective techniques from diverse traditions making it an eclectic form of sorcery.

    I personally learned the basis of my craft from my great grandmother who was Cherokee and what most would consider a shaman. She taught me from a very early age. From there I got to learn Irish folk magic, New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo from other relatives. I was encouraged to learn as much as I could, especially by my mother who doesn't practice but told me if I was going to be a witch, I'd better be a well rounded one and s I did. I look every where for information. I know the use of herbs and plants not only from a magical standpoint in one tradition or idea but several as well as the medical uses and Chinese medicine as well. I've looked at every piece of information on magic I can find from like the Black Pullet to books written today, though I will say that Wicca really turns me away.
    You've basically verified what I thought. You are a sorceror not tied to any particular doctrine/praxis other than your own fliexible tradition that allows for you absorb the useful elements of other traditions. In other words you are an eclectic practitioner of magick.

    Strangely enough there is strikingly little difference between your methodology and my own save that mine contains a strong religious element. Along with Pagan magick I work with Buddhist/Yogic meditation techniques, Chinese energy work (qigong), and core shamanic practices along with other work I have found to be effective.

    What you have described isn't uncommon amongst Wiccans so I fail to see the chasm that seperates us. Is it really the religious aspect perhaps? Nothing you've written strikes me as something that I haven't seen in well read/practiced eclectic Wiccans.

    To sum up a bit of what traditional witches believe, I'll give you a link to a wonderful website where many traditional witches gather.

    http://www.traditionalwitch.net/foru...-by-startella/

    From this article you can tell, there's various beliefs. Not one trad witch can speak for another. As for Wicca, it's a religion so everyone believes in something similar to each other.
    I'll check out the link. Thanks for the information.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Sundragon
    Come visit my blog

    Sorcery and Spirit

    where I discuss Magick, Mystical Spirituality and whatever else comes to mind.

    " Wherever you are is home
    And the earth is paradise
    Wherever you set your feet is holy land . . .
    You don't live off it like a parasite.
    You live in it, and it in you,
    Or you don't survive.
    And that is the only worship of God there is."

    - Wilfred Pelletier and Ted Poole

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micheál View Post
    Traditional Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, and an orthopraxy. Upon initiation into Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft(Wicca), one becomes a "Witch."

    If one associates with Wicca's (Gardnerian&Alexandrian Witchcraft's) outercourt information, and wants to call themselves Wiccan, I'm not going to necessarily say that they're not, regardless of what I believe, because it's a controversial high-jacked term, but I will say it's a whole different issue when neo-Wiccans try to define what Wicca is, and isn't, especially when they don't have knowledge of it's innercourt mysteries, and this includes a lot of so called "Wiccan" authors
    All credible evidence indicates that Gardener crafted his own tradition by combining folk magickal practice found in Britain at the time with ceremonial magickal elements found in the practices of the Golden Dawn and Crowley.

    Qabalistic/Hermetic magickal foundations are found throughout all Wiccan practice. Even the duotheism of Wicca is Qabalistic/Hermetic in nature and clearly indicated on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. No pagan faith of antiquity was clearly duotheistic in the manner of Wicca and certainly no belief system evidenced in the British Isles, the birthplace of Wicca. This is not to denigrate Traditional British Witchcraft but merely an acknowledgement of its roots.

    Even the issue of inner vs. outer court teachings seem rooted in the Order of the Golden Dawn and Masonry who have their outer order practices and their deeper inner order teachings. Masonry isn't magickal in and of itself, but the Golden Dawn based its structure around pre-existing masonic forms.

    Alexandrian Wicca is a combination of Gardenerian belief/practice with a heavy dose of obviously Hermetic magickal practice. Alex Sanders adapted Gardener's work for his own practice and "poof" another tradition was born.

    This is always how traditions are born. Visionary leader combines effective practices, adds his/her own unique spin on things, give it a name, and now you have a tradition in which individuals can root their own personal practice/belief.

    I've practiced ceremonial magick even longer than I've practiced Wiccan magick and I can state emphatically that the real mysteries of any tradition are to be found in the inner experiences of the practitioner. If anyone, from ceremonialist to Wiccan simply does what's printed in books, they will be sorely limited. Spirit/God/The Gods/spirits/etc. communicate the secrets of magick/spirituality directly to the practitioner. These communications find themelves woven into current traditions and sometimes birth entirely new traditions.

    Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy have their place, but the mystic ultimately transcends any "book learning" even if that book sontains the secrets of a given tradition ie. the Book of Shadows. One transcends given knowledge and enters into the realm of experiencial knowledge and because each mystic/magician is subtly unique psychologically/etherically/spiritually the "secrets" they are made privy to may or may not be valid for others.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Sundragon
    Come visit my blog

    Sorcery and Spirit

    where I discuss Magick, Mystical Spirituality and whatever else comes to mind.

    " Wherever you are is home
    And the earth is paradise
    Wherever you set your feet is holy land . . .
    You don't live off it like a parasite.
    You live in it, and it in you,
    Or you don't survive.
    And that is the only worship of God there is."

    - Wilfred Pelletier and Ted Poole

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