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Thread: What constitutes a non-Wiccan Witch?

  1. #61
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    Love all your comments. I think the greatest example of a non-wiccan is of course the Pennsylvania Dutch Pow-Wow practitioners. Now I don't think that they would call themselves witches but their pretty interesting people. Their a dying breed due to things like outside influences, marrying outside the group, stuff like that. I'm part Pennsylvania Dutch and years ago I tried to find out information.

    Both me and my mother were shocked that there was hardly nothing out there about our part of our family and grandfather didn't have any records of who his mother or father had been or there relations. Saddens me greatly, though I'm still interested in learning about the Penn Dutch. Of course Silver Ravenwolf had to get involved, though not by our hands, and publish that horrible book Hex Craft.

    Found a better book by Karl Herr called 'Hex and Spellwork'. My brother is buying it for me.

    So with my Penn Dutch traditional heritage, my Native American, my Celtic, and Italian I think I'm one pretty magical person.

  2. #62
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    I'm curious as to why, that because a bunch of kids "play witch" that it would invalidate a truly beautiful and wonderful path. Honestly, if someone wants to tell me their a ninja, they can feel free, real ninjas won't stop practicing because of it.

    Just because people are too lazy to do any real research, doesn't invalidate paths that are out there. I deal with that in a Sumerian context on an annoyingly regular basis. Saying that my path, my faith, my practice, etc. is invalid, stupid, or wrong in some way because either 1) the "teenage craze" took it over (in name only by the way, not that many people seem to care), or 2) because you don't follow it/understand it, makes one look like a fool.

    There is more to most paths then what you will ever find in a bookstore like Borders or B&N, and a good deal of what is well known is junk when it comes to occult material. It's a shame that so many people will toss aside wonderful things because of what a few idiots do, say, or think.

    I have no desire to break down the posts that have been made while I was gone, because it's just angers me that I am somehow invalid because others have no clue about my path. Good job, you know, because I'd hoped that on a pagan forum a lot of this "I don't like your path, so it doesn't count" crap wouldn't exist. But, every few months, it happens again, and I'm just tired.
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  3. #63
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    Are you talking about what I said or are you doing a general rant. If your doing a general rant then keep on going. I love hearing people rant. On the subject of the Pennsylvania Dutch their actual called the Pennsylvania Germans. They came over with William Penn during the 1600's and somehow, along the way, they were suddenly known as the Pennsylvania Dutch.

    Personally I don't think the person that twisted their origins was smart. To me I'm Pennsylvania German but since so many of the Pennsylvania Dutch call themselves Pennsylvania Dutch then I guess that's what they are. The Pennsylvania Dutch, or German, brought their magical practices from Germany to the New World and they take the form of the Amish and the Mennonites.

    The Mennonites have the hex signs, which also work as a means of getting what you need, as a form of folk magic, the Amish don't do hex signs. The Pow-wow's, and no not the Indians, do the magical work. Originally only men could work in the area of being a Pow-Wow practitioner but with the introduction of the American Medical Association in the early 1900's things changed and slowly the Pow-Wow practitioner fell out of favor.

    Now their back, due to the New Age moment, and even women are taking part. People that practice Pow-wow know the medical and magical properties of plants, can cure the skin and heal, can give you magical plants and powders to improve your life, and battles women that have actually, and I'm not making this up, sold their soul to the Devil.

    These soul-selling women are black witches, not even close to Wiccans with their belief in not harming people. These black witches will harm you. The Pow-Wow practitioner will actually fight the hexes and curses that the soul-selling witch has done. Something to note: Pow-Wow practitioners do not have anything against Wicca. Oh and they also read cards.

    Thank you for listening to my words.
    Last edited by Sekhmet Soul30; September 27th, 2010 at 01:46 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundragon View Post
    All credible evidence indicates that Gardener crafted his own tradition by combining folk magickal practice found in Britain at the time with ceremonial magickal elements found in the practices of the Golden Dawn and Crowley.

    Qabalistic/Hermetic magickal foundations are found throughout all Wiccan practice. Even the duotheism of Wicca is Qabalistic/Hermetic in nature and clearly indicated on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. No pagan faith of antiquity was clearly duotheistic in the manner of Wicca and certainly no belief system evidenced in the British Isles, the birthplace of Wicca. This is not to denigrate Traditional British Witchcraft but merely an acknowledgement of its roots.

    Even the issue of inner vs. outer court teachings seem rooted in the Order of the Golden Dawn and Masonry who have their outer order practices and their deeper inner order teachings. Masonry isn't magickal in and of itself, but the Golden Dawn based its structure around pre-existing masonic forms.

    Alexandrian Wicca is a combination of Gardenerian belief/practice with a heavy dose of obviously Hermetic magickal practice. Alex Sanders adapted Gardener's work for his own practice and "poof" another tradition was born.

    This is always how traditions are born. Visionary leader combines effective practices, adds his/her own unique spin on things, give it a name, and now you have a tradition in which individuals can root their own personal practice/belief.

    I've practiced ceremonial magick even longer than I've practiced Wiccan magick and I can state emphatically that the real mysteries of any tradition are to be found in the inner experiences of the practitioner. If anyone, from ceremonialist to Wiccan simply does what's printed in books, they will be sorely limited. Spirit/God/The Gods/spirits/etc. communicate the secrets of magick/spirituality directly to the practitioner. These communications find themelves woven into current traditions and sometimes birth entirely new traditions.

    Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy have their place, but the mystic ultimately transcends any "book learning" even if that book sontains the secrets of a given tradition ie. the Book of Shadows. One transcends given knowledge and enters into the realm of experiencial knowledge and because each mystic/magician is subtly unique psychologically/etherically/spiritually the "secrets" they are made privy to may or may not be valid for others.


    )o( Blessed Be,

    Sundragon
    That's something Bonewitz and Kelly tried to emphasise, but containing elements of ancient heritage is something Hutton left as debatable. This is also something that every Traditional Wiccan is well aware of, in Ireland at least, where every 1st Degree is required to read Triumph of the Moon, and the former is accepted as pseudohistory and myth.

    Gardner admitted his tradition was fragmented, and filled the fragments in with what he thought was appropriate. Since he was chartered to found an O.T.O Lodge to take over all English speaking districts, and also being a Co Mason, are among the obvious, including writings from Helena Blavatsky, to Romantic poets. However, besides having a Wiccan background, I also happen to be a Freemason, and an initiated member of the O.T.O, and to say "Qabalistic/Hermetic magickal foundations are found throughout all Wiccan practice,", I would consider very misleading. It is present in places, but limited outside of the degree system, and certain rites, and the Qabalah and CM is something Wiccans will also study on the side, because Wicca very much so has its own mysteries. As an Alexandrian HPriest I know stated perfectly, "If you have not been initiated and brought trough the mysteries you are not a Wiccan you are a pagan following a wiccan path."

    Another thing kind of off topic, and just something in general I've noticed, it seems to me when a lot of people(that I've noticed started as neo-Wiccans) never go on to pursue it Traditionally, will make claims later of following a family Traditional Witchcraft tradition, because its "older." I have to say a lot of these claims are fabrications. I see a lot of "Irish family" traditions from people in the States, which is odd, because you can't find any of these traditions in Ireland, from either other pagans, or anyone sharing the family name. As Hutton also pointed out in regards to charmers, and cunningfolk, "water witches", and "horse whispers" and such are traditions that would run in families, but were skills that the holders could share with any friend, or family member. Most cunningfolk were literate, and learned what they know from reading books, much like a lot of todays youth aspiring to be witches. There are few family traditions believed to have been in existence, and there's as much credible evidence to prove their existence as there is the New Forest Coven, for all of those that emphasise Gardner's fragments, but follow a "Traditional" path themselves passed down through their family.
    Semper Fidelis

  5. #65
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    Interesting. The Romanian Gypsy witches are defiantly (sorry if I misspelled that) not Wiccan. They had a nice video about them. They are family traditional, with gifts that they are born with. My gift, along with my mother's, and all the women from my grandfather's line all have psychic gifts. They don't always use them but they know that their there. One of the reasons that none of the woman went into Pow-Wow, and the men are too stupid and wrapped up in their own lives, is because the practice was closed to women.

    My mother wants me to be the first woman in our family to practice. I'm thinking about it, but I want to read books written by those that practice before I decide if I want to do this.

  6. #66
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    Just as a aside note but I though the German's that came over with the Dutch into the Penn Colony were actually called "Dunkers". They moved down the Shenandoah valley into Virginia and stayed for a number of years before moving back up into the PA area.

  7. #67
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    In my opinion, if someone seems Wiccan but simply calls themselves a witch, then I am guessing they want more freedom to change or do what they want. A religion such as Wicca is more constructed. So there may be certain limitations. And also, there is the argument "Well your not a Wiccan if you don't do this, this and that" - that is actually what drove me away from Wicca. People trying to tell me I am wrong or doing things the wrong way.

    "Witch" has so much freedom cause there are all sorts of witches, and it is very individual. Over time I have come to call myself a green witch. I prefer to focus on herbs, the elements and nature in general. But also have my own freedom - without having to follow any rules or complicated ritual.



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  8. #68
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    Also note, I'm specifically referring to the British Isles. You'll find people here that swear they have family members who are bone menders, or blood cotters, being able to do so with certain phrases. There's folk traditions and superstitions that have been associated with witchcraft. My wife's grandmother even knew of some, and there was a lady in their town people wouldn't let look at their cows. A lot of this stuff was just word of mouth knowledge, from people that were Christians. Hanging a horse shoe on the barn to ward hexes, or putting eggs in the neighbours butter to make their cows go dry. Even in the Gaeltacht, it's rare that you hear about any of such being inherited in an elaborate form of family religious tradition. I'm not saying that certain family traditions didn't exist, as the likes of Bitty Early, and Mary Butters show otherwise, but it's odd that at a time when the Gaeltacht traditions themselves are lingering on their final frontier, we see countless traditions alive and well on the internet.
    Semper Fidelis

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet Soul30 View Post
    Are you talking about what I said or are you doing a general rant. If your doing a general rant then keep on going. I love hearing people rant. On the subject of the Pennsylvania Dutch their actual called the Pennsylvania Germans. They came over with William Penn during the 1600's and somehow, along the way, they were suddenly known as the Pennsylvania Dutch.

    Personally I don't think the person that twisted their origins was smart. To me I'm Pennsylvania German but since so many of the Pennsylvania Dutch call themselves Pennsylvania Dutch then I guess that's what they are. The Pennsylvania Dutch, or German, brought their magical practices from Germany to the New World and they take the form of the Amish and the Mennonites.

    The Mennonites have the hex signs, which also work as a means of getting what you need, as a form of folk magic, the Amish don't do hex signs. The Pow-wow's, and no not the Indians, do the magical work. Originally only men could work in the area of being a Pow-Wow practitioner but with the introduction of the American Medical Association in the early 1900's things changed and slowly the Pow-Wow practitioner fell out of favor.

    Now their back, due to the New Age moment, and even women are taking part. People that practice Pow-wow know the medical and magical properties of plants, can cure the skin and heal, can give you magical plants and powders to improve your life, and battles women that have actually, and I'm not making this up, sold their soul to the Devil.

    These soul-selling women are black witches, not even close to Wiccans with their belief in not harming people. These black witches will harm you. The Pow-Wow practitioner will actually fight the hexes and curses that the soul-selling witch has done. Something to note: Pow-Wow practitioners do not have anything against Wicca. Oh and they also read cards.

    Thank you for listening to my words.
    I suspect one of the reasons they may have become to Pennsylvania "Dutch" is that they were "Deutsch", which is the German word for German. People probably couldn't pronounce it, and changed it to Dutch.

    The name "Pow wow" is definitely an Americanized thing...to my knowledge the Germans in Germany did not call it that.
    I'm a Christian Witch, and I wouldn't have it any other way!

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    I find it overly pretentious when people call themselves "Lady _________." My username would just have been "Dryad," had that not been taken and were I not unoriginal in picking names for things.
    By no means do I consider myself "Lady" anything.


  10. #70
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    No the Pow-Wow part came when the German's that arrived to the New World watched the Indians dances and meetings. They traded knowledge of plants and other practices. Read it in an article that was given to me by someone else on the German Recon section of this site.

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