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Thread: Book Fraud

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by odubhain View Post
    Steven,

    I think it'd also help your cause to post some excerpts from the work here. There should be an Old-Irish version, a German version and the English translation.

    Any of the above three would go forward to proving or disproving authenticity or usefulness for the work. It'd probably also increase book sales to have such excerpts on the websites marketing it.

    Slán,

    Searles O'Dubhain
    I'll be happy to post the following excerpts, the first being Mr. Thorenson's German transcription, followed by my English translation of the same text. As I mentioned earlier the original Old Irish manuscript disappeared in 1941 when it was taken to Britain by Rudolf Hess. Here then are excerpts of Thorenson's German and my own English translations of the same passage of text:

    Erstes Kapitel
    Vom Tir nan'Og und vom Áes Sídhe
    Vor langer Zeit vor der Dämmerung des Alters, gab es wertlos aber die Tiefen einer beträchtlichen Leere, die die Göttin Domnann war, wer vom Anfang der Zeit existierte, Wohnung alleine ohne Begleitung, bis schließlich weiter aus von den Schatten ihrer Schwärzung, Netz, der Gott der Unterbrechung heraus kamen.Und durch die Energie von seinem fängt veranlaßte die Stille von Domnanns leer gestört zu werden, damit die Schwärzung geteilt wurde und Stoff und Formular Form nahmen, in der vor es nur Platz und Leere gab.Und in diese Lücke waren geborenes Ernmas, die Göttin der Masse und Tuireann der Gott des Himmels. Und Ernmas lag unter Tuireann, damit sie von ihm bedeckt wurde und von ihrem Anschluß waren geborenes Bel, der Gott der Sonne und Danand, die Göttin des Mondes.

    Und die Helligkeit der Sonne glänzte nach der Masse während des Tages und dem Licht des Mondes bis zum Nacht.War die Wärme groß und Helligkeit des Bels, die Danand veranlaßte, mit Wunsch und dem Sehnen nach ihm gefüllt zu werden, damit sie nicht folgt nach ihm war, während er die Himmel überquerte.Durch ihre wiles seduce sie ihn und sie standen Geliebten.Von ihrem Anschluß wurde dem Rennen der Götter getragen, die das Áes Sídhe angerufen werden und das von altem als das Tuatha Dé Danann bekannt oder Leute von Danand.

    Viele waren die Zahl des Tuatha Dé Danann und unter ihnen waren Lir, Lord der Tiefen der Ozeane; und Manannan sein Sohn, Tabellierprogramm der Wellen der Meere; und Dagda das gute, das ein großzügiger Helfer an alle ist; und seine Tochter, Brighid die Maid, Schutz der wachsenden Sachen; und Diancecht der Heiler, Arzt der Götter; und Goibniu der Schmied, Meister der Schmiede und metallfunktion; und Oghma das redegewandte, das am größten von allen Dichtern und von Gelehrten; und Nuada, der Krieger der Götter und des Verteidigers ihres Rennens; und Midhir, Wächter der Schätze, die liegen, begrub tief unter der Masse. Diese und viel mehr numerierten unter dem Tuatha Dé Danann.

    Noch waren das Tuatha Dé Danann nicht die einzigen Kinder, die zum Erzeugung des Netzes und des Domnann getragen wurden, dort existiert einem älteren Rennen der Wesen verlangte das Fomoraig, das ebenfalls weiter von ihrem Anschluß kam.War ihre Größe groß und Stärke, Körper habend mögen an die eines Mannes aber mit den Köpfen der Ziegen; während andere von ihnen aber ein einzelnes Bein hatten, mit nur einem Arm und einem Auge jeder.Waren diese ungeheueren Geschöpfe so gemein und boshaft, die Tuireann nicht tragen könnte, um nach ihnen zu schauen und er ordinierte, daß sie in das Meer geworfen werden sollten. Aber das Meer verbrauchte sie nicht, und das Fomoraig nahm zum Leben unter dem Wasser des Ozeans, und sie reisten nach seinen Wellen. Und in den kalten, dunklen, Nordländern der Masse bildeten sie ihr Königreich, weit von Anstarren Tuireanns.

    Und so kam das Fomoraig, das vom Stipendium des Tuatha Dé Danann verbannt wurde, in Lochlann, wegen ihrer großen Grausamkeit und Ruthlessness zu bleiben; alle sichern aber ein, das Samthainn benannt wird, das in seiner Jugend durch alle Götter für seine playful Natur geliebt war, wie er sie mit seiner Fröhlichkeit und Belustigung erfreute.In der Zeit entwickelte sich er zu ein stattliches Formular, aber für die Geweihe, die wuchsen weiter von seinem Kopf, damit er Cerna angerufen wurde und Ethe gehörntes, 'durch alles Tuatha Dé Danann bedeuteten.Und ihm wurde Ladung des Überwachens über ihren Mengen in auffängt und die Herden der Tiere gegeben, die in den Wäldern ihres Landes blieben, das Tir nan'Og genannt wurde.

    Jetzt war Tir nan'Og eine Insel, das weites heraus zum Meer, über den Nordwinden, in der Mitte des großen Ozeans hinaus legen und es war aller Plätze in der Welt das angemessenste. Im Inneren dieser Insel verbreiten Sie ein beträchtliches normales benanntes Mag Mell. Ausgedehnt und grün waren seine auffängt und Wiesen, in denen unzählige Waldungen der Apfelbäume wuchs, nach deren silbernen Zweigen getragene goldene Früchte waren damit es manchmal Emhain Abhlach genannt wurde, die Insel der äpfel.

    Nach dieser angemessenen Ebene, die dem Tobar Segais gestanden wurde, oder gut vom Wissen, von dem fünf strömt, fließen Sie.Dort schwammen fünf Lachse, wem nach den Muttern von neun Haselnußbäumen einzog, die über die Vertiefung wuchsen. Geldstrafe war das Wetter dort, und Alter kam nicht zu denen, die in diesem Land blieben, aber alle, die dort lebten, blieben jung und stark und schön. Und die, die dort blieben, hatten vier ausgezeichnete Städte aufgebaut; Fálias zum Norden, Gorias zum Osten, Findias zum Süden und Murias zum Westen.In jeder dieser vier Städte standen einen Betrachtung Aufsatz, der das Land von Tir nan'Og übersieht in, welchem vier große Meister des Wissens und des Lernens, erfahrenes in die künste der Verzauberung und der Magie weiter anhielten; Morfesa von Fálias, Esras von Gorias, Uiscias von Findias und Semias von Murias.Sie waren die Wächter von vier großen Schätzen und waren die Lehrer des Áes Sídhe, von dem sie große Klugheit und Fähigkeiten erlernten.

    Und es geschah dieser ein Tag Brighid, die Tochter von Dagda, war allein wandered in die Wildnis, denn sie war in alle Weise der Kräuter und der grünen Sachen vernarrt und hatte großes Wissen ihrer Energien und Gebrauches. Und in ihr wandering riskierte sie in den Reich von Cerna, der tief in den Wäldern blieb und war Meister aller Tiere, die dort lebten, für war ihn mehr als irgendwelche der anderen Götter unter ihnen das wildeste und das wild.

    Jetzt hatte Cerna nie eine solche angemessene und schöne Maid wie Brighid gesehen und nicht eher ihn abfing hatte, aber ein Blick von ihr war er smitten mit einer tiefen Sehnsucht, um sie zu haben.Aber war sie seines merkwürdigen Aussehens erschrocken, denn er wurde in tragenden Kleidern des rustic Kleides der grünen Eiche Blätter und der Habengeweihe nach seinem Kopf gekleidet, damit sie von seiner Firma floh.Dennoch tat Cerna ausüben sie, bis sie relented und die zwei Geliebten standen, und von ihrem Anschluß wurde dem Rennen des Mannes getragen.

    Dieses resultierte gut nicht für Brighid für sie war viel geliebt durch Tuireann und als er ihr tryst mit Cerna entdeckte, er einstellte ungefähr, um sie zu bestrafen. Ein Blatt nehmend, das von Goibniu geschmiedet wurde, gab Tuireann es an Brian, und erklärt ihm, um zum Reich von Cerna weiter zu gehen, und Lage Vergeudung zu ihr, damit das Rennen des Mannes nur zu ihrem Vater, das gehörnte nicht mehr schauen, sie unterstützen konnte, wenn es ihren Lebensunterhalt durch die Jagd suchte und die Tiere in Herden lebte, die er anordnete, aber das sollten sie die anderen Götter des Tuatha Dé Danann aussuchen danach müssen, um sie in ihrer Mühe und in Arbeiten zu unterstützen, wenn sie Getreide durch den Schweiß ihrer Brauen anheben.

    Und weil Menschheit vom tryst von Brighid mit dem gehörnten begriffen worden war, verordnete Tuireann, daß das Rennen des Mannes nicht im Land von Tir nan'Og abwarten sollte, aber daß sie in den Todländern der Masse für immer bleiben müssen.Und aus diesem Grund würde ihre Lebensdauer dort nicht unending sein, aber das sollten sie tödlich sein, damit Alter und Tod zu ihnen kommen würden.Dann er veranlaßt einen Schleier des Nebels, über Tir nan'Og zu fallen, damit es nicht von denen gefunden werden verschwand und konnte, die in der Todwelt blieben.

    Und nachdem dieses vollendet wurde, Tuireann verbanntes Cerna vom Land von Tir nan'Og und sendete ihn thenceforth an Tech Duinn, der Reich der Geister und reiste Geist ab von ihm seinen von Eichenholz Personal nehmen und ihm eine Krone der Stechpalmeblätter gebend, sprechen, „Sie sind Donn, das dunkle, denn Sie haben Tod nach denen geholt, die Sie Leben gegeben haben. Reisen Sie jetzt von diesem Land ab und gehen Sie weiter, über dem Königreich der Toten anzuordnen.“

    Und als Cerna die Krone der Stechpalme verläßt ihn von Tuireann gegeben, die Blätter der Eiche genommen hatte, die die Kleidungen seines Kleides bildeten, die früher grün und hell aussahen, anfingen zu verwelken und verblassen Sie. Tat dann Cerna sprechen an Tuireann, Saying, „ich warte nicht dort alleine,“ ab und er erklärte Tuireann, daß, während Brighid mit ihm war, sie von den Beeren des Bergasche gegessen hatte, der unter den Bäumen seines Waldes wuchs,und weil sie von ihnen partaken, wurde sie zum Halt mit ihm gesprungen. An welches Tuireann geantwortet „nur während einer Jahreszeit.“

    Und Tuireann verordnete, daß von Imbolc zu Samhain, die Göttin Brighid unter dem Tuatha Dé Danann und danach bleiben würde, während im Reich der Toten,sie sollte nicht in die Form der schönen Maids gesehen werden, die Inneres Cernas mit dem Sehnen gefüllt hatte,aber als Morrigan, ein haggard altes altes Frau, das zu den wayfarers als drei dunkle Vögel Tod erscheint Nemain, Macha und Badb, die am Eingang zum Tech Duinn stehen, das heraus die Vorsicht „krächzt, kommen nicht, weg zu halten, überschreiten vorbei!“ herein

    Und so kam es zu überschreiten, das, als Brighid weiter ging, im Land der Toten jedes Samhain am Ende der Erntejahreszeit zu bleiben, die Masse dunkel und kalt wurde,und wachsende Sachen würden verwelken und verblassen, damit während dieser Jahreszeit das Rennen des Mannes nur indem es den Tieren der Wälder Tod und Gemetzel, überleben konnte holte und auffängt.

    Aber nach ihrer Rückkehr zum Tir nan'Og jeder Frühling würde sie an der Dämmerung auf dem Morgen von Imbolc zu gut von Jugend gehen und das Wasser von ihm trinken und seien noch einmal in eine angemessene und schöne Maid umgewandelt Sie deren Note das Gras zum Grün noch einmal dreht.Dann würden die Tage länger und heller wachsen, und die Masse wird noch einmal freigebig und so würden Männer zum Pflug zurückkommen und den Segen der Götter nach ihren Getreide suchen.

    Und als Anzeige zu allen, die das Leben und der Tod für immer einer an den anderen angeschlossen werden, war es die Legacy von Cerna, die die Schlange, deren Bissen aller Geschöpfe das tödlichste ist, sollte von den Tiefen von weiter kommen mit Erde bedecken jede Feder, um unter den Wäldern abzuwarten und auffangen als Symbol, daß Tod immer anwesend ist, wohin es Leben gibt.Dennoch, selbst als die Schlange doth Halle seine erneuert zu werden Haut, so auch neue Lebensdauer tut, kommen Sie weiter vom Tod auch......


    Chapter One
    Of Tir nan’Og and the Áes Sídhe
    Long ago, before the dawn of the ages, there was naught but the depths of a vast emptiness which was the goddess Domnann, who existed from the beginning of time, dwelling alone without companionship until at last there came forth from out of the shadows of her darkness, Net, the god of disruption. And through the power of his will Net did cause the stillness of Domnann’s void to be disturbed so that the darkness became divided and matter and form took shape where before there was only space and emptiness. And into this void was born Ernmas, the goddess of the earth, and Tuireann the god of the sky. And Ernmas did lie beneath Tuireann so that she was covered by him and from their union was born Bel, the god of the sun, and Danand, the goddess of the moon.

    And the brightness of the sun shone upon the earth during the day and the light of the moon by night. Great was the warmth and brilliance of Bel, which caused Danand to be filled with desire and longing for him, so that she was wont to follow after him as he traversed the heavens. Through her wiles she did seduce him and they became lovers. From their union was born the race of gods who are called the Áes Sídhe, and who were known of old as the Tuatha Dé Danann, or People of Danand.

    Many were the number of the Tuatha Dé Danann, and among them were Lir, lord of the depths of the oceans; and Manannan his son, ruler of the waves of the seas; and Dagda the good, who is a generous helper unto all; and his daughter, Brighid the maiden, protectress of growing things; and Diancécht the healer, physician of the gods; and Goibniu the smith, master of the forge and metalwork; and Oghma the eloquent, greatest of all bards and scholars; and Nuada, the warrior of the gods and defender of their race; and Midhir, guardian of the treasures that lie buried deep beneath the earth. These and many more numbered among the Tuatha Dé Danann.

    Yet the Tuatha Dé Danann were not the only children who were born to the generation of Net and Domnann, for there existed an elder race of beings called the Fomoraig who likewise came forth from their union. Great was their size and strength, having bodies like unto that of a man but with the heads of goats; while others of them had but a single leg, with only one arm and one eye each. So wicked and malevolent were these monstrous creatures that Tuireann could not bear to look upon them, and he ordained that they should be cast into the sea. But the sea did not consume them, and the Fomoraig took to living amidst the waters of the ocean, and they did travel upon its waves. And in the cold, dark, northern lands of the earth they made their kingdom, far from Tuireann’s gaze.

    And so the Fomoraig being banished from the fellowship of the Tuatha Dé Danann came to dwell in Lochlann, on account of their great cruelty and ruthlessness; all save but one named Samthainn, who in his youth was beloved by all the gods for his playful nature, as he delighted them with his mirth and merriment. In time he grew to a handsome form, but for the antlers that grew forth from his head, so that he was called Cerna, meaning ‘the Horned One,’ by all the Tuatha Dé Danann. And he was given charge of watching over their flocks in the fields and the herds of animals that dwelt in the forests of their country which was called Tir nan’Og.

    Now Tir nan’Og was an island that lay far out to sea, beyond the north winds, in the midst of the great ocean; and it was the fairest of all places in the world. In the heart of that isle spread a vast plain called Mag Mell. Broad and green were its fields and meadows, where grew countless groves of apple trees upon whose silver branches were borne golden fruits; so that it was sometimes called Emhain Abhlach, the Isle of Apples.

    Upon this fair plain stood the Tobar Segais, or Well of Knowledge, from which five streams did flow. There five salmon did swim who fed upon the nuts of nine hazel trees that grew about the well. Fine was the weather there, and age came not to those who dwelt in that land, but all who lived there did remain young and strong and beautiful.

    And those who did dwell there had built four magnificent cities; Fálias to the north, Gorias to the east, Findias to the south, and Murias to the west. In each of these four cities there stood a watchtower overlooking the land of Tir nan’Og wherein four great masters of knowledge and learning, skilled in the arts of enchantment and magic held forth; Morfesa of Fálias, Esras of Gorias, Uiscias of Findias, and Semias of Murias. They were the guardians of four great treasures, and were the teachers of the Áes Sídhe from whom they learned great wisdom and skills.

    And it happened that one day Brighid, the daughter of Dagda, was alone having wandered into the wilderness, for she was fond of all manner of herbs and green things and had great knowledge of their powers and uses. And in her wandering she ventured into the realm of Cerna who dwelt deep in the forests and was master of all the animals who lived there; for he more than any of the other gods was the most wild and feral among them.

    Now Cerna had never seen such a fair and beautiful maiden as Brighid, and no sooner had he caught but a glimpse of her was he smitten with a deep longing to have her. But frightened was she of his strange appearance, for he was arrayed in rustic apparel wearing garments of green oak leaves and having antlers upon his head, so that she fled from his company. Yet did Cerna pursue her until she relented and the two became lovers, and from their union was born the race of man.

    This did not bode well for Brighid for she was much beloved by Tuireann, and when he discovered her tryst with Cerna he set about to punish them. Taking a blade forged by Goibniu, Tuireann gave it unto Brian, and told him to go forth to the realm of Cerna and lay waste to it, so that the race of man could no longer look only to their father, the horned one, to aid them in seeking their livelihood by hunting and herding the beasts which he ruled, but that they should thereafter have to seek out the other gods of the Tuatha Dé Danann to assist them in their toils and labors in raising crops by the sweat of their brows.

    And because mankind had been conceived from the tryst of Brighid with the Horned One, Tuireann decreed that the race of man should not bide in the land of Tir nan’Og, but that they must forever dwell in the mortal lands of the earth. And for this reason their life there would not be unending, but that they should be mortal, wherefore age and death would come to them. Then did he cause a veil of mist to fall about Tir nan’Og so that it disappeared and could not be found by those who did dwell in the mortal world.

    And after this was accomplished, Tuireann banished Cerna from the land of Tir nan’Og and sent him thenceforth unto Tech Duinn, the realm of ghosts and departed spirits; taking from him his oaken staff and giving him a crown of holly leaves, saying, “Thou art Donn, the dark one, for thou hast brought death upon those whom thou hast given life. Depart now from this land and go forth to rule over the kingdom of the dead.”

    And when Cerna had taken the crown of holly leaves given him by Tuireann, the leaves of oak that made up the vestments of his apparel, which formerly appeared green and bright, began to wither and fade. Then did Cerna speak unto Tuireann, saying, “I shall not bide there alone,” and he told Tuireann that while Brighid was with him she had eaten of the berries of the rowan that grew amid the trees of his forest, and because she had partaken of them she was bound to dwell with him. Unto which Tuireann replied “Only for a season.”

    And Tuireann decreed that from Imbolc to Samhain, the goddess Brighid would dwell among the Tuatha Dé Danann and thereafter, while in the realm of the dead, she should not be seen in the shape of the beautiful maiden that had filled Cerna’s heart with longing, but as Morrigan, a haggard old crone who appears to wayfarers as three dark birds of death, Nemain, Macha and Badb, who stand at the entrance to Tech Duinn croaking out the warning “Do not enter, keep away, pass by!”

    And so it came to pass that when Brighid went forth to dwell in the land of the dead each Samhain at the ending of the harvest season, the earth became dark and cold, and growing things would wither and fade, so that during this season the race of man might survive only by bringing death and slaughter to the beasts of the forests and fields.

    But upon her return to Tir nan’Og each spring she would go at dawn on the morning of Imbolc to the well of youth and drink the water therefrom and be transformed once again into a fair and beautiful maiden whose touch turns the grass to green once more. Then would the days grow longer and brighter, and the earth become bountiful once again; and so men would return to the plough and seek the blessings of the gods upon their crops.

    And as a reminder to all that life and death are forever connected one to the other, it was the legacy of Cerna that the serpent, whose bite is the most deadly of all creatures, should come forth from the depths of the earth each spring to bide among the forests and fields as a symbol that death is ever present wherever there is life. Yet even as the serpent doth shed its skin to be renewed, so too does new life come forth from death also.

    But lo, a prophecy was foretold by Brighid, that a day should come when the gods themselves must take leave of their own immortal land, even as her children had been banished from its shores by Tuireann’s pride, so too would the Tuatha Dé Danann be made to flee and seek refuge amid the mortal lands of the earth. And likewise, as Cerna had been cast out and sent forth to dwell within the nether realm, it should come to pass that the race of men would someday compel all the gods to live amid the hollow places under the earth in the land that they should come to dwell in.




  2. #32
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    I'm no expert on linguistics so I'm hardly qualified to make any judgement regarding the accuracy of your translation, but as a follower of the Celtic Pagan tradition, I have to say that it is a wonderful story and I personally enjoyed the treatment you have given it as far as the style in which it is phrased. Also, I don't see anything in the excerpt that you have posted that could be considered "racist" or bigoted, unless it is the description of the Fomorians as being evil; but since they are a race of mythical beings who are traditionally considered to be of a negative nature (like the Orcs in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings) it would be stretching it to try to denounce that as racism.

  3. #33
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    Steven thats excellent thanks for posting! I am full of questions now

    Do you think the God is in any way linked to the Fir Domnainn the tribal ancestors of the Leinstermen?

    Why do you think the composer of the manuscript varied from the christian book of invasions to give us a pagan creation myth but still kept to the format of the chronical of aquitain?

    Two things come to my mind:
    That it was a late manuscript written after the Book of invasions had been absorbed into the culture...
    Or that it was a File instead of a fir comgne that wrote the legend...

    Thanks
    Last edited by Nuadu; November 24th, 2008 at 10:26 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuadu View Post
    Steven thats excellent thanks for posting! I am full of questions now

    Do you think the God is in any way linked to the Fir Domnainn the tribal ancestors of the Leinstermen?

    Why do you think the composer of the manuscript varied from the christian book of invasions to give us a pagan creation myth but still kept to the format of the chronical of aquitain?

    Two things come to my mind:
    That it was a late manuscript written after the Book of invasions had been absorbed into the culture...
    Or that it was a File instead of a fir comgne that wrote the legend...

    Thanks
    The Fir Domnann show up later in Chapter Five together with the Fir Bolg and the Fir Gaileon, as descendants of Semeon, a survivor of Neimheadh's expedition, who had fled to Greece after being driven out of Ireland by the Fomoraig, but the whole human race is supposed to have descended from Cerna and Brighid. The various human expeditions and settlements of Ireland taking place over many centuries by colonists originating in Scythia. My own opinion is that the account given in the Lebor Feasa Runda predates the later Christianized versions found in the Book of Fermoy and the Book of Leinster, or at least the Lebor Feasa Runda preserves an earlier pre-Christian version of the stories found in the Lebor Gabala Erenn.

  5. #35
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    Thanks for replying Steven its great to have someone to talk about the manuscript traditions with

    The idea that this manuscript is older and the Domnainn are at the top of the scheme has controversial implications.

    The current thinking is that the earliest book of invasions comes from the Northern literary Tradition and was compiled at the Great monastery of Bangor and the Monastery of Movilla because they are centres of scholarship from the 6th century, the first annals begin there and that Tuan maic cairell whos charactor is used to legitimise the timescale of the book of invasions is taken from a the same dynastic sept as Saint Finnian the founder of Movilla.

    The southern literary tradition is considered to be the newer of the two but the Monastery at Clonmacnois also contributed to the compilation and Fintan mac Bochra used by Clonmacnois to legitimise the christian timescale is identified as being identical with Tuan in a version of the book of invasions.

    If the Fir Domnainn an early tribe from leinster genealogies carry the name of the creator deity they are at the pinnacle of the scheme and given that lebar gabala erenn is a christian compilation of different powerfull septs genealogies based on the christian world chronical scheme from eusebius that could that mean that the manuscript was composed at Clonmacnoise in leinster who put a local dynastic septs genealogy at the top of the scheme with the best interests of their own region at heart.

    Since you only have a german translation and not the original it might never be settled what do you think Steven?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuadu View Post
    Thanks for replying Steven its great to have someone to talk about the manuscript traditions with

    The idea that this manuscript is older and the Domnainn are at the top of the scheme has controversial implications.

    The current thinking is that the earliest book of invasions comes from the Northern literary Tradition and was compiled at the Great monastery of Bangor and the Monastery of Movilla because they are centres of scholarship from the 6th century, the first annals begin there and that Tuan maic cairell whos charactor is used to legitimise the timescale of the book of invasions is taken from a the same dynastic sept as Saint Finnian the founder of Movilla.

    The southern literary tradition is considered to be the newer of the two but the Monastery at Clonmacnois also contributed to the compilation and Fintan mac Bochra used by Clonmacnois to legitimise the christian timescale is identified as being identical with Tuan in a version of the book of invasions.

    If the Fir Domnainn an early tribe from leinster genealogies carry the name of the creator deity they are at the pinnacle of the scheme and given that lebar gabala erenn is a christian compilation of different powerfull septs genealogies based on the christian world chronical scheme from eusebius that could that mean that the manuscript was composed at Clonmacnoise in leinster who put a local dynastic septs genealogy at the top of the scheme with the best interests of their own region at heart.

    Since you only have a german translation and not the original it might never be settled what do you think Steven?
    At the risk of sounding like a comparative religionist, my own thoughts are that the stories told in all of these early chronicles stem from the proto Indo-European belief system which forms the basis of not only Druidism, but also Vedic Brahmanism, Greco-Roman and Nordic/Teutonic paganism as well.

    I see the relationship between the Fomoraig and the Tuatha De as being the Celtic equivalent of the relationship between the Asura and the Devas in Hindu mythology; the Titans and Olympians in Greek mythology; and the Aesir and Vanir in Germanic/Scandinavian mythology. The Fomoriag being the older, primordial beings born out of darkness in the earliest stages of creation before the birth of the sun (Bel) and the moon (Danand) who in turn were the progenitors of the Tuatha De Danann as gods of light. The primordial goddess Domnann being the "abyss" or emptiness which existed before all creation and out of which all creation emanated, much like the Chaos in ancient Greek mythology.

    I don't see the mortal tribe of the Fir Domnann as having a direct connection to the goddess Domnann, but in these stories their tribal name is explained as being the "men of the depths" because of the pits they labored in as slaves during their exile in Greece. Personally, I believe that this may be folk etymology, and the Fir Domnann may have actually been members of the Celtic Dumnonii tribe who were known to have inhabited Cornwall in Britain during the Roman period; whereas the Fir Bolg may have been the Belgae and the Fir Gaileon would have been the Galli (Gauls).
    Last edited by Steven Akins; November 24th, 2008 at 01:59 PM.

  7. #37
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    Hi again Steven thanks for taking the time to reply. People are going to be talking about your book for years

    I can see where you are coming from there with the vedic stuff. Ive never subscribed to it myself but Im probably just not educated enough yet to understand it. Some of the stories in the book of invasions and its associated myths which youve said are in the manuscript like the ones revolving around the Lugh Cult\lughnasa and Samhain are probably ancient themes and the myths contained in the manuscript in unusual or new formats or even new myths are the things that are really valuable.

    That said there are things in what you have given us on the forum that would indicate to me that the manuscript probably doesnt predate the Book of Invasions because the invasions that youve mentioned are also present in your manuscript are artificial.

    If you look at our genealogies and the maps of tribal territories that existed in early Ireland the deities whether they are named as fomaire, Fir Bolg, Cessarian, tuatha de danann... in the book of invasions all coexist together here in single territories. They have mountains, lakes, rivers... named for them in those territories in both the dindshenchas and in the bealodeas and all have decendants in the genealogies of the Dynastic Septs. From that you can tell that the pantheons presented in the book of invasions are false they are compiled myths from different tribes meshed together to suit the dogma of the day. A dogma your manuscript also shares.

    The book of invasions is a christian invention to bring Ireland in line with the Christian world chronical where the rulers of each kingdom are layed out in parallell columns each king shown to superceed the other (in our case in wave after wave of conquering invasions) until the founding of the holy roman empire. Early Ireland is a tribal society there are no successive rulers of the island because the highest title there is is only the King of a province and each lesser king still retained automony over their territory. If the manuscript predated the book of invasions that successive wave of invasions and the associated chronology wouldnt be present and that atleast dates your manuscript to the founding of the monasterys in the 6th century.

    All manuscripts have mythology around their own creation and it doesnt really devalue the myths contained in the manuscript but it does mean that unique things in the text have to be looked at in the context of that christian attempt at creating a history for Ireland before it is accepted as pagan. Do you have any thoughts on that Steven?
    Last edited by Nuadu; November 24th, 2008 at 03:17 PM.

  8. #38
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    Yes, I do understand what you are saying, however it is likely that both these genealogies and the mythological tales existed for a very long time in the form of memorized oral history transmitted from generation to generation by the filid well before the Christian era, as I point out in the introduction to the book:

    During the early Middle Ages a number of attempts were made by monastic scholars in the Celtic community to record the history and legends that had previously been preserved only by the bards and seannachies who committed to memory the folk tales and genealogies that they were called upon to orally recount before their listeners. The literature preserved through the efforts of these clerics resulted in a number of manuscripts, of which the Lebor Gábala Érenn (found in both the Book of Fermoy and the Book of Leinster) is perhaps the most well known example.

    Due in part to past reliance upon memory alone, unaided by written accounts, as well as the tendency of Christian scholars to downplay the pagan overtones of the material that they were transcribing in an effort to make it fit more neatly alongside the Biblical history which they sought to supplement, discrepancies naturally occurred when the stories were eventually recorded by monastic scribes many centuries after their initial conception. Relationships between the numerous figures in these tales, and in some cases their names themselves, may have become confused or forgotten altogether.

    An example of this is found where the name of the Gaelic mother-goddess is concerned. The gods of the Irish mythological cycle are known collectively as the Tuatha Dé Danann, a title which scholars normally translate as meaning the “Tribe of [the goddess] Danu.” The name Danu, however, is actually a modern-day hypothetical reconstruction based upon inferences which suggest that it may have been one of the original forms of the goddess’ name, despite the fact that it has never been found rendered as such in any of the original sources of existing Celtic literature.

    The names of the goddess that do appear recorded in the medieval manuscripts range from Danand, Danann, Dinand, Dianann, Donann, Ana, Anand, Anann, Anu, Aine, Boand, Boann, and Boind, all of which most likely referred to what was originally a single entity, though in the accounts where these names are given they sometimes appear to refer to different characters. However, in the context of their association with two other prominent Celtic goddesses, Brighid and the Morrigan, it is apparent that all of them represent what was anciently conceived as a trinity of the divine feminine aspects of maiden, mother and crone which came to be personified as Brighid, Danand and Morrigan.


    The Morrigan was herself represented as a triune deity in the form of Badb, Nemain and Macha, who were associated with war, death, and dark prophetic wisdom, assuming the form of three carrion crows or ravens. This symbolism of the goddess of death in bird form seems to be consistent throughout Celtic culture and may be paralleled in the Welsh legend of Blodeuwedd, the wife of Lleu Llaw Gyffes who was transformed into an owl for committing adultery, and also in the archaeological discoveries of artifacts depicting scenes of the Gaulish pagan deity Esus cutting down a tree in which is hidden a bull with three cranes, identified as Tauros Trigaranus.


    The bull, which is often shown in ancient representations alongside the stag-antlered god Cernunnos, may represent the Celtic horned-god in his aspect as a guardian of the dead and protector of the underworld, a role hinted at in the Irish myths where the name Donn, meaning “dark one” is given to characters in several different stories, including the Táin Bó Cúailnge, or “Cattle Raid of Cooley”, in which Donn is the name of an enchanted brown bull who has undergone a series of mystical incarnations and conflicts together with his nemesis, Finnbhennach, the white-horned bull of Connacht; a tale in which the Morrigan appears as a prominent character.


    The story of the conflict between the dark bull of Cooley and the white-horned bull of Connacht alludes to a theme of seasonal cycles in which light and darkness are involved in an eternal struggle, much like that of the Oak King and the Holly King in the Mummer plays of British folk drama. These pageants being a survival of pagan May-Day festivals celebrating nature’s springtime renewal personified by the Green Man, a symbolic entity that evolved from the concept of the horned god as a sylvan deity associated with forests and woodlands.


    As a guardian of the dead, the Celtic horned god was also credited as being the ancestor of the human race. Julius Caesar speaks of this in the chronicle of his campaigns during the Roman conquest of Gaul and Britain in The Gallic Wars, where he refers to the Celtic deity using the name of his Latin counterpart, Dis Pater, saying, "All Gauls claim that they are descended from Dis Pater, and assert that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For this reason they calculate the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but by nights, they observe birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night."


    This peculiarity of the Celtic form of reckoning seems to have been preserved among the Gaelic people, who began and ended their calendar year with the festival of Samhain, which was observed on the eve of November, and later gave rise to the traditional folk festival of Halloween. Samhain was considered to be a particularly supernatural time when the gateway between the mortal and immortal realms was opened and spirits of the deceased were free to move among the living. This day was especially associated with the Celtic horned god, a fact which seems to be reflected in one of the names given to him in the Irish mythological cycle where he appears briefly as Samthainn, a brother of Cian and Goibniu, who was charged with guarding Cian’s enchanted cow in a story relating the events preceding the birth of Lugh Lamhfada which led to the second battle of Mag Tuiredh.


    While the horned god of the Celts has been identified as Cernunnos on inscriptions from artifacts found in Gaul, this name does not occur in either Gaelic or Welsh mythological literature. A variant form of the name is briefly encountered in the legend of the Irish king Conaire Mor who was told “thou shall not hunt the wild beasts of Cerna” as part of a list of acts that were forbidden to him by an envoy of the gods. Likewise in Britain the names of Cerne and Herne echo as a half-remembered reference to this ancient pagan deity. In Wales the name of Cerna or Cernunnos may have evolved into that of Gronwy, the mysterious hunter with whom Blodeuwedd betrays her husband, Lleu Llaw Gyffes. Lleu being the Welsh counterpart of the god Lugus, worshipped by the Celts of Gaul, and the Irish deity Lugh Lamhfada, who was acknowledged as being a master of every skill.


    The harvest festival of Lughnasadh, held on the eve of August, was said to have been inaugurated by Lugh himself in remembrance of his foster-mother Tailtiu who died of exhaustion after clearing the plain of Mag Breg in Meath. Lugh’s association as a god of the harvest is further emphasized in an episode from the second battle of Mag Tuiredh when he demands knowledge of agriculture from the defeated traitor-king Bres in exchange for sparing his life. Much later, the memory of Lugh would survive in the personification of the folk-character John Barleycorn, celebrated as a deification of the harvested grain and the spirits distilled from it.


    Other significant festivals observed by the Celts included Imbolc, held on the eve of February, and Beltane which took place on May eve. The name Imbolc is an Irish word meaning “in the belly” and signifies the beginning of the lactation season for ewes, marking the arrival of spring. This day was considered sacred to Brighid, the ancient goddess of fertility whose name is found throughout Celtic culture variously rendered as Brigando, Brigantia, and later as the Christian St. Brigid. So well-loved was this deity that she survived all attempts to exterminate the last vestiges of paganism in the British Isles, eventually being conferred the status of a saint, whose holy day took the place of the earlier Celtic festival.

    Beltane, a word meaning “the fire of Bel” in the Gaelic language, was the name given to the festival which marked the beginning of summer and the bright half of the year. Held on the first of May, Beltane was celebrated with bonfires and other festivities linked with fertility in honor of Bel, the sun god of the ancient Celts, who was worshipped as Belenos in Gaul and as Beli Mawr by the Welsh.


    The calendar used by the ancient Celts appears to have been based upon both the lunar and the solar year. While the solar year consists of 365 days, a calendar based upon 13 months, each being four weeks or 28 days long, results in a lunar year of 364 days, to which an extra day would be added, making a total of 365 days. The extra day fell upon Samhain, which was considered to be the time when the old year ended and the new year began, giving rise to the expression “a year and a day,” frequently encountered in Celtic literature. This thirteen month calendar would have more easily accommodated the true zodiac consisting of the thirteen constellations through which the sun passes during the year and includes the constellation of Serpentarius or Ophiuchus, the serpent-holder, which was excluded from the zodiac by the Romans who favored a twelve month solar year.


    Interestingly, this often ignored thirteenth sign of the zodiac, which falls between the constellations of Scorpio and Sagittarius and lies in the path of the sun from November 30 to December 17, is represented as a man holding a snake, which is a feature common to depictions of the Celtic horned god who is frequently illustrated as holding a serpent in his left hand in archaeological examples such as are found on the first century B.C. Celtic ritual cauldron discovered in Gundestrup, Denmark, as well as on rock carvings from Val Comonica in northern Italy which have been dated to 400 B.C.


    The Celtic concept of the afterlife seems to have been similar to that of most other pagan cultures in Europe. Those who died valiantly on the field of glory received a hero’s welcome to the land of the gods, while those fated to succumb to an ignoble death through sickness or old age might retire to the shadowy abyss of the underworld known as Tech Duinn, or the “House of Donn,” to find rest before being reborn through a new incarnation.


    The elysium of the Celtic gods was to be found on an island far to the west, beyond the setting sun, which was immortalized through many names, although Tir nan’Og or the “Land of Youth” seems to have been its original name; while Emain Abhlach or the “Isle of Apples” was another of its appellations, connecting it with Avalon in the Arthurian legends of later centuries. Like the lost continent of Atlantis, it seems to have sunk beneath the ocean, as it later came to be called Tir fo Thonn, the “Land Beneath the Waves,” and was ruled over by the ancient Celtic sea-god, Manannan mac Lir, long after the other gods of the Tuatha Dé Danann had forsaken it in favor of Ireland. As Tir Tairngire, the “Land of Promise,” it remained as a hoped-for destination that awaited those fortunate enough to visit its shores by leaving the mortal world behind.


    When the iron-age Celts finally did arrive in Ireland around 500 B.C. they found a land that was filled with mysterious chamber tombs and megalithic monuments built by the former inhabitants during the Neolithic era and Bronze Age. The presence of these structures doubtlessly inspired the Celts’ belief that not only had the land once been populated by their gods, but that they continued to occupy the brugs and mounds in the surrounding landscape, giving rise to the habit of referring to the Tuatha Dé Danann as the Daoine Sídhe or “People of the Hills,” so that ultimately the word Sídhe was employed as a term for the gods themselves.


    By the time Christianity reached Ireland in the fifth century A.D., the Druidic religion of the Gael already had a thousand year foothold on the people of that land, and the gods of the old religion would not soon be forgotten. While the new religion was rapidly and widely accepted, the old days and ways were never completely abandoned and lived on in the memories, legends, customs and beliefs of the people who first breathed life into them, the proud and ancient race of the noble Celts.
    Last edited by Steven Akins; November 24th, 2008 at 03:41 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Akins View Post
    Hi Searles,

    I don't believe that the original Old Irish manuscript of the Lebor Feasa Runda has seen the light of day for well over 60 years, not since it was removed from Rudolf Hess shortly after his arrival in Scotland back in 1941. From what I have gathered it wound up in the hands of the British Military Intelligence - though where it may have ultimately ended up is anyone's guess, as it was not found in the sealed file of documents removed from Hess (which was found empty in 1991 when the seal was discovered to have been broken). My own personal opinion is that Churchill may have kept it, as he was the one who ordered Hess sent to London immediately after having learned of his arrival in Scotland, after which he had Hess thrown in the tower of London as a prisoner and later kept at various detention facilities in Britain until the end of the war, after which Hess was tried at Nuremburg and sentenced to life in prison at Spandau, where he died some 41 years later at the age of 93.
    My own work with the Lebor Feasa Runda was merely to translate Henry Thorenson's German version of it into English - a tedious task that kept me occupied for the past three and a half years, working from photocopies of Mr. Thorenson's type-written German translation that had been provided to me by his widow, Evelyn. Were it not for her willingness to share her husband's work with me, the Lebor Feasa Runda would no doubt have been forgotten altogether after her own death some two years ago. As it stands, the Lebor Feasa Runda was rescued from oblivion in the nick of time.
    I would be happy to meet with you of course, provided our schedules can be worked out, though Thursday I will be on the road and spending the rest of the evening with my family for Thanksgiving, but perhaps we could get together sometime on Friday if you would like.

    Steven
    I'm familiar with the German POW camp at Aliceville and some of the stories that were told about it. I can't for the life of me understand why Germans would stick around in the Alabama heat and humidity. I guess it was the pretty girls that did the trick. Up here in Huntsville, they stuck around because of Werner Von Braun and the rocket industry. I have a great appreciation for their science as I work on rockets and spacecraft. It keeps me moving around from Florida to Alabama to the Washington DC area and other places as well.

    Let's see how time and schedules work out. Regardless of the LFR business, I'd like to see what is going on in your neck of the woods. After all, the Druid City is down that way as well as the Big Tree. Either of them would be worth the trip. I'll email you on Friday morning to see how things are (if I get your email that is; you've got mine already).

    Searles O'Dubhain

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Akins View Post
    I'll be happy to post the following excerpts, the first being Mr. Thorenson's German transcription, followed by my English translation of the same text. As I mentioned earlier the original Old Irish manuscript disappeared in 1941 when it was taken to Britain by Rudolf Hess. Here then are excerpts of Thorenson's German and my own English translations of the same passage of text:

    Erstes Kapitel

    Vom Tir nan'Og und vom Áes Sídhe

    That's a pretty good tale though there are parts of it that seem strange to me, but the excerpt definitely makes me want to read more of the book.

    It's similar to what I already believe though I think that Danu is more of a goddess of the Star River and that the Sun is feminine and the Moon masculine. I also work with the four cities of Falias, Findias, Gorias and Murias in a different order than its presented in LFR (but I've seen it that way in other works so it's not a major problem for me).

    I'm no expert of German but I'll bet there are folks who are who will be looking at what you've posted to see how it translates. The origins of the German version are very plausible. Is there any other supporting evidence for it? Did anyone leave a diary behind, letters, personal notes, etc? Are there children of Henry or Evelyn Thorenson still living? Maybe some SS intelligence folks who would be in the know? A lot of the other German mysticism and esoterica survived. I wonder why the LFR is not mentioned? Maybe it is and we just haven't heard? Have you researched that end of the manuscript further into Germany?

    I'm not yet convinced that the source of the document is an Old-Irish manuscript and would like to see the parts of it that tell of its origins. Most such Old Irish books usually begin like the Auraicept na n-Éces begins with a series of statements as to where the book was written, when it was written, by whom it was written, and why it was written. Does this manuscript do that?

    Another thing that should be a part of the book in some places would be Ogham names and symbols since the original LFR is said to have been written on Ogham tablets or staves. I'd expect a fair amount of the Draíocht in the book would involve Ogham.

    Anyway, I'm going to buy a copy of the book and see what else it has to offer and then I'll do a detailed written review of it.

    If you'd like to share more, I'd like to read it and discuss it further.

    Searles O'Dubhain
    Last edited by odubhain; December 7th, 2008 at 12:37 AM. Reason: pats to parts/other assorted typos

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