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Thread: Cherry-Picking Vs. Traditionalism

  1. #51
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    To me it all comes down to personal integrity, cherry picking or not. Having the balls, or ovaries, and enough self-knowledge to know how to take in information and processing it according to one's inner truth, the ultimate compass IMO.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    Yes, reading only one "eye witness" account I would probably say it was a nice personal account. If I read several accounts that agreed on at least some of the points, I would grant it greater veracity. That just seems like good sense to me.
    It doesn't to me. One person, I can believe would have had a personal interaction with a divine being. One person might have been special enough. Five thousand telling the same story? Then you have to consider the number of people telling the story to get some extra attention for themselves or just because they wish it had happened to them.

    Perfect example: Babe Ruth's "called shot home run" in the fifth inning of Game 3 of the 1932 World Series. the number of people at that game was only 49,986 but the number of people that have claimed to have been in the stands that day is about three times that number (source: bar napkin sports trivia).

    In addition, the sense (as you put it) was almost exactly the same "sense" used in Salem. Two "afflicted" girls didn't make much of an impression, a dozen or more convinced the crowds that deviltry was afoot.:deviltail Truth is seldom popular. I personally look for the rarer when looking for truth.

    Generations of mothers have raised their children with the "truth" that you must never go swimming sooner than an hour after eating (and in Cuba its three hours) because it causes potentially deadly stomach cramps. Its popular bunk, and we know now why it is bunk, but that doesn't stop the modern mothers from keeping the kiddies out of the pool for an hour after eating. For those readers of this who are going to swear its not bunk http://www.snopes.com/oldwives/hourwait.asp

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    So, if we agree that the facts are also subjective, depending on many factors, doesn't that support my opinion that claiming that the "truth" of one group of "ancient philosophers" is indeed only their truth, and that there is most likely a different truth in other regions... even in other times?
    Nope. Your assertion is the same as saying that for the Wiccans who believe their religion is thousands of years old is just as true as the Wiccans who believe that their religion was invented in the last century by a horny con man. There may be different opinions on the subject, but they are not both true no matter how many times boths sides tell us they have the truth.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    Is that what you were trying to say in the other thread? Somehow you didn't make that very clear before. It's an interesting opinion, but there are plenty of other different opinions of course.
    Yeah that was what I was trying to say, and I did try to make that clear, I mentioned the same thing several times actually but everyone else was caught up in lesser details along the way. I can't control what people want to focus on and blow out the water anymore than I can control what people choose to read and skip over.

    [QUOTE=Lunacie;3879698]Don't you mean people aren't representing a particular path/tradition/religion in a way that you find accurate? I'm sure they're representing themselves as honestly as possible.

    Actually both, not everyone represents themselves as honestly as possible, many people like to put on facades and masks in this day and age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    Getting snarky and making personal attacks in order to make your own opinions or arguments sound more sincere is generally not effective.
    Excuse you? Snarky? Personal Attacks? Seems to me that you are the one coming after me at every turn on this site. I made no personal attack in this thread whatsoever, and if I have why don't you leave it up the moderators and administrators of the site to handle it? I think they are more than capable of doing their job without your help Lunacie. But like I said, I can't control what people choose to read, not read or even misread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    There are certainly historically accurate ways of worshipping Zeus, but show me a historically accurate description of Zeus by someone who actually interacted with him, eh? All we really have to go on are personal accounts - and as anyone can tell you, those can vary greatly from one eye-witness to another.
    Actually most sculptures, statues, vases, paintings and literary descriptions match up pretty well. Certain items may change, but for the most part the overall image is fairly constant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    As to the bigger picture, becoming belligerent and angry in defense of your particular tradition doesn't really do much as far as "damage control" when fluffies are spreading misinformation. The kind of attention you get from throwing a hissy fit isn't really helpful in presenting a good image of Hellenics or Wiccans or any group. A better way to go is to simply offer the more correct and historical information and let people make their own judgment as to which makes the best sense.
    Whose the one making the personal attack? I have yet to understand this incredible system you have to identify whether or not I am "belligerent", "angry" and "throwing a hissy fit". You place a lot of assumptions in what you read Lunacie instead of reading objectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    History from one region says that's probably accurate. History from other regions say something else is probably "true." Facts may be universal, but truth is relatively subjective.
    So you are saying that, for instance, the way the Greeks worshipped their Gods is accurate, and that a foreign people thought the Greeks worshipped their own Gods in the wrong way and that is accurate? What? Naturally the Greeks would know best on how to worship the Greek Gods. I'm a little confused on what you are trying to say here...

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Goddess View Post
    Yeah that was what I was trying to say, and I did try to make that clear, I mentioned the same thing several times actually but everyone else was caught up in lesser details along the way. I can't control what people want to focus on and blow out the water anymore than I can control what people choose to read and skip over.
    I don't believe I was choosing what to read and what to skip over. What you wrote in that other thread simply wasn't as clear to me as what you wrote in this thread.

    Excuse you? Snarky? Personal Attacks? Seems to me that you are the one coming after me at every turn on this site. I made no personal attack in this thread whatsoever, and if I have why don't you leave it up the moderators and administrators of the site to handle it? I think they are more than capable of doing their job without your help Lunacie. But like I said, I can't control what people choose to read, not read or even misread.
    If you think I'm "coming after" you "at every turn" please ask the Admins to check our interactions. I don't remember bumping heads before that last thread where I was simply trying to get the thread back on topic. The site owners have asked some of us to volunteer as Forum Guides, so they are asking us to help in that capacity. (starting new topics, gently bringing a thread back on topic, reporting bad behavior)

    In the Wicca Path forum I'm a guide, so that's what I was trying to do there. In this forum (Advanced Paganism) I'm just a member like you, and it was my personal opinion that some of your remarks seemed like you were attacking the poster rather than sticking to the topic. Yes, I probably should have used the report button instead of derailing the thread.

    So you are saying that, for instance, the way the Greeks worshipped their Gods is accurate, and that a foreign people thought the Greeks worshipped their own Gods in the wrong way and that is accurate? What? Naturally the Greeks would know best on how to worship the Greek Gods. I'm a little confused on what you are trying to say here...
    Not at all. I don't know whether I wasn't clear enough, or whether you were choosing what to read, not read, or misread. I was saying that the way the Greeks worshipped their own pantheon was "the truth" for them. The way other cultures worshipped their own pantheons was "the truth" for them. I think that the way you view and honor your own Gods is the truth for you, but I don't agree that there is a "universal pantheon" in which the religious practices of the ancient Greeks was then - or is today - the best way for everyone to honor all of the Gods.
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  5. #55
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    Son of Goddess, Lunacie...

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  6. #56
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  7. #57
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    From what I can see here, this topic brings up many issues. What I was primarily curious about was the value of one method vs. another. I had thought about this when a recon (who shall remain nameless) brought up the issue of electic-ish types "taking" from other traditions and the amount of fruitfulness and validity of doing so.

    Here is another question that I believe relates:

    Must one, in the worship of a specific deity, adhere to that deities structure of worship laid down by the followers of that deity?

    Example: Can one experience Kali-Ma without actively engaging in the ritual associated with her? One thing I'd point out here is the Thugee and their human sacrifices, and the supposed continued animal sacrifices in her name. What was once implicit in her worship is now illegal as well as immoral. I don't want to get into a debate over the fine points of this example, but want to use it to inquire whether one needs (in general) to follow strict guidelines to make contact with a given deity.

    Eh? Eh?


    [Edit] Also, I think we can all agree to call a spade a strognoff is simply bad form. Sacrificing chickens in your kitchen and calling yourself a wiccan is absurd. Finding a new name for your practice is probably a good idea. However, for example, how many different types of Universal Life Force TM. do we really need?
    Last edited by malkookoo; February 27th, 2009 at 06:04 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    but I don't agree that there is a "universal pantheon" in which the religious practices of the ancient Greeks was then - or is today - the best way for everyone to honor all of the Gods.
    Just to clarify this one point, by "universal pantheon" I refer to a single pantheon of deities that every culture interprets via their worldview, not a single cultural pantheon (such as the Greeks) that the entire world must worship. Of course the Greek way wouldn't work for the Celts, they were two different civilizations with different worldviews.

    Quote Originally Posted by malkookoo View Post
    What I was primarily curious about was the value of one method vs. another. I had thought about this when a recon (who shall remain nameless) brought up the issue of electic-ish types "taking" from other traditions and the amount of fruitfulness and validity of doing so.
    Poor Anteros, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by malkookoo View Post
    Must one, in the worship of a specific deity, adhere to that deities structure of worship laid down by the followers of that deity?

    Example: Can one experience Kali-Ma without actively engaging in the ritual associated with her? One thing I'd point out here is the Thugee and their human sacrifices, and the supposed continued animal sacrifices in her name. What was once implicit in her worship is now illegal as well as immoral. I don't want to get into a debate over the fine points of this example, but want to use it to inquire whether one needs (in general) to follow strict guidelines to make contact with a given deity.
    Can it be done? I'm sure it can, however it is my opinion that when one utilizes key elements/aspects/tools/items/etc that have long been linked and familiar to a specific deity and His/Her worship the channel of communication is much more direct and clear. If you can get from point A to point B the "easy" way, why take the detour?

    And your example of moving from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice is what we Recons would recognize as a need for innovation, yet tempered by tradition.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by malkookoo View Post
    From what I can see here, this topic brings up many issues. What I was primarily curious about was the value of one method vs. another. I had thought about this when a recon (who shall remain nameless) brought up the issue of electic-ish types "taking" from other traditions and the amount of fruitfulness and validity of doing so.

    Here is another question that I believe relates:

    Must one, in the worship of a specific deity, adhere to that deities structure of worship laid down by the followers of that deity?

    Example: Can one experience Kali-Ma without actively engaging in the ritual associated with her? One thing I'd point out here is the Thugee and their human sacrifices, and the supposed continued animal sacrifices in her name. What was once implicit in her worship is now illegal as well as immoral. I don't want to get into a debate over the fine points of this example, but want to use it to inquire whether one needs (in general) to follow strict guidelines to make contact with a given deity.

    Eh? Eh?


    [Edit] Also, I think we can all agree to call a spade a strognoff is simply bad form. Sacrificing chickens in your kitchen and calling yourself a wiccan is absurd. Finding a new name for your practice is probably a good idea. However, for example, how many different types of Universal Life Force TM. do we really need?
    I think there are certainly pros and cons to each way. Over time a tradition can build up quite a bit of energy that is easier to tap into. But doing so can also create a group of followers who become lazy and simply do what they've always done just because that's what they've always done. Trying new things can reinvigorate things. I know I'm not explaining this very well - but I wanted to get a couple of thoughts down before I figure out what I need to eat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Goddess View Post
    Just to clarify this one point, by "universal pantheon" I refer to a single pantheon of deities that every culture interprets via their worldview, not a single cultural pantheon (such as the Greeks) that the entire world must worship. Of course the Greek way wouldn't work for the Celts, they were two different civilizations with different worldviews.
    >.
    O...kay. That really wasn't clear before either, thanks for clarifying. In some ways that seems to make sense to me, and in other ways we see enough difference that it makes more sense to say there really are a whole bunch of different gods. It may take another reincarnation or three before I really get a good handle on all this.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Goddess View Post
    Ok, but that analogy doesn't work because Christianity relies solely upon correct belief, polytheism does not.
    Not to go OT, or nitpick, 'cause I do agree with a lot of your points, especially about not claiming a label when it's not being true (e.g. saying your a Roman recon, when you're actually worshipping Thor and Aset, while casting a circle and performing the LBRP, etc), but, there are some Christian Churches that place an emphasis on active work, and I believe it was one Christian (or it may be a Catholic saying, I'm not too sure?) who said 'faith without works is empty' or something similar to that anyway.

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