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Thread: Cherry-Picking Vs. Traditionalism

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by David19 View Post
    Not to go OT, or nitpick, 'cause I do agree with a lot of your points, especially about not claiming a label when it's not being true (e.g. saying your a Roman recon, when you're actually worshipping Thor and Aset, while casting a circle and performing the LBRP, etc), but, there are some Christian Churches that place an emphasis on active work, and I believe it was one Christian (or it may be a Catholic saying, I'm not too sure?) who said 'faith without works is empty' or something similar to that anyway.
    Faith is the primary foundation to Christianity one need only believe; it is orthodox. Doing "works" which I take to mean as charity work and the like is in no way orthoprax, orthopraxy implies worshipping in a specific way by doing/saying specific things, referring to ceremonies, rituals, and the like.

    Whether or not doing works helps your way there or not is another argument for Christians to have out at each other, but the primary foundation for all of Christianity is belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God/God incarnate and the truth of the Word of God.

  2. #62
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    Whether or not doing works helps your way there or not is another argument for Christians to have out at each other, but the primary foundation for all of Christianity is belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God/God incarnate and the truth of the Word of God.
    Which even core basics are often argued among religious colluges.

  3. #63
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    True, but certain Christian sects and denominations might place an additional emphasis on orthopraxy alongside orthodoxy. Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and related sects do place an emphasis on standardised practices and ceremony in rituals, for various reasons.

    Though I agree that, core to just about any form of Christianity is faith in Jesus as redeemer and monotheism. I don't dispute that, nor do I think Dave was either.

  4. #64
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    As a former member of the Christian church, I think I can shed a little light on David's question.

    The phrase from the bible is "...faith without works is dead." Dead being the key word, not "empty".

    That doesn't mean that doing good in the world is the crux of the religion. It means that faith that produces actions to improve the world is a living faith, while faith that does nothing but say "Yay, I believe in this" is a dead kind of faith. The difference between a living tree that produces fruit and a dead tree that doesn't produce any fruit is one example I've seen used.

    It's not the works that produces faith, it's the faith that produces works in the best-case scenario.


    While in many Pagan religions, the works that we do bring us closer to the Gods, bringing honor to the Gods, hopefully bringing rewards from the Gods.
    Last edited by Lunacie; March 1st, 2009 at 11:07 AM. Reason: added the bolding
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    As a former member of the Christian church, I think I can shed a little light on David's question.

    The phrase from the bible is "...faith without works is dead." Dead being the key word, not "empty".

    That doesn't mean that doing good in the world is the crux of the religion. It means that faith that produces actions to improve the world is a living faith, while faith that does nothing but say "Yay, I believe in this" is a dead kind of faith. The difference between a living tree that produces fruit and a dead tree that doesn't produce any fruit is one example I've seen used.

    It's not the works that produces faith, it's the faith that produces works in the best-case scenario.


    While in many Pagan religions, the works that we do bring us closer to the Gods, bringing honor to the Gods, hopefully bringing rewards from the Gods.
    That's what I was thinking of, like Louisvillain said, I know faith and belief are very important in Christianity, but, for some traditions, it's not the only thing that's important, I take that saying Lunacie just posted to mean, to truly follow Jesus, and be part of the Kingdom of God, you have to do works, as well as have faith.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by David19 View Post
    That's what I was thinking of, like Louisvillain said, I know faith and belief are very important in Christianity, but, for some traditions, it's not the only thing that's important, I take that saying Lunacie just posted to mean, to truly follow Jesus, and be part of the Kingdom of God, you have to do works, as well as have faith.
    I think you still may have it backwards. Christians believe that true faith in Jesus means that one does good things just as Jesus did because he was a good example, not that one must do good things in order to be part of the Kingdom of God and live with Jesus forever.
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  7. #67
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    Lunacie's on the money with this.

    It is faith that breeds the work because one is genuinely inspired by the life of Jesus to do as He had done, it isn't the idea of by doing what he did one becomes like Jesus. I can do all the good works I want that may be in line with Christian morals, ethics, and so on but if I don't have a genuine belief and trust in Jesus Christ then my works were fruitless in regards to gaining my position in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Though works may be important to various sects, faith is still primary.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
    I think you still may have it backwards. Christians believe that true faith in Jesus means that one does good things just as Jesus did because he was a good example, not that one must do good things in order to be part of the Kingdom of God and live with Jesus forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Goddess View Post
    Lunacie's on the money with this.

    It is faith that breeds the work because one is genuinely inspired by the life of Jesus to do as He had done, it isn't the idea of by doing what he did one becomes like Jesus. I can do all the good works I want that may be in line with Christian morals, ethics, and so on but if I don't have a genuine belief and trust in Jesus Christ then my works were fruitless in regards to gaining my position in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Though works may be important to various sects, faith is still primary.
    Thanks for explaining it to me then .

  9. #69
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    The thing that keeps a tradition alive is the continued practice of a specific tradition. I think there are limits though to which one can vary from a specific tradition and still be a part of that specific tradition. I do not feel that there is anything wrong with adaptation and change. Change is a part of the world that we live in. I do not practice my craft exactly as my Mother does, nor does she practice her craft exactly his her mother did. And my daughter does not practice her craft exactly as I do nor like my Mother did with me do I expect her to. However there are certain 'core' 'beliefs' within our tradition that one is expected to understand and respect. But then we are just plain old ordinary witches it probably differs from one tradition to the next how much you are expected to know and follow.
    There are just some things one can not change about a tradition and call it the same tradition. For example I studied a Dianic priestess, there are many things that one can not change and still call themselves Dianic. Even though I studied for a year and a day and I completed my training I could not call myself a Wiccan or even a Dianic witch because there are to many things I incorporate into my path or do not incorporate in practice that are not of those traditions.Therefore I think it would be disrespectful to present my self as Wiccan or as Dianic. But I do not see anything wrong with learning of and from other paths as long as you do not misrepresent yourself.
    Last edited by LadyeFalcon; April 6th, 2009 at 04:46 AM.

  10. #70
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    Interesting thread. I won't read all 7 pages (140+ posts) but thought I'd chip in my 2 cents.

    I believe in freedom of religion - what you believe is what you believe. I don't think its cool when people pick and chose out of convience (yes to heaven no to hell?) or fashion (oh reincarnation and past lives is so IN this season) but if that is truly whats in your heart then of course, be true to that.

    Just because millions of people follow something else, doesn't make it any more truer than what you believe is the truth. They are just seeing a different facet of the same divine.

    Classification is for the anally retentive, and so long as humans are born with sphincters we'll all be guilty of that one! Most of the annoyances I see with people about pick n mix faith is the classification.
    Example: If a Christian Witch told a Priest she was a Christian witch, it would be very likely that the priest would tell her that so long as she practices witchcraft, she could not be a Christian (not true to what I think at all, I love you Christian witches ), but if the same witch told the priest she was a witch then mentioned she believes in Jesus, read the bible and believed in the Christian God, I think the priest would be much more agreeable. So label yourself with caution folks :D
    Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty.

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