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Thread: The Wiccan God as "Father"?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Terrific View Post
    I don't necessarily consider what people are currently doing the highest and best expression of their spiritual path.

    I understand the Goddess to be spiritual life and the God to be physical life. Inasmuch as we are both physical and spiritual beings, it takes both to explain what it means to be human. To speak of one being more important than the other is kind of silly, when you look at it from that angle.

    The God is Father inasmuch as he represents the whole of the physical side of life. Our physical and rational natures are expressions of his nature.

    You could also say that the Goddess is Being and the God is Becoming, and understand their respective Motherhood and Fatherhood in the same way: our "becoming nature" is an expression of the God's nature, etc.

    Is there a tendency to de-sacralize the physical? I think so; and, if so, that may partly explain the de-emphasis on the God.

    I've run across a number of people who think that, in order to have balance, they have to find a place for the Goddess as well as the God at each Sabbat, each point on the Wheel. I think this is because they don't see that the real balance is between the Sabbats and Esbats, Solar and Lunar, God and Goddess. If the Sabbats were presented as the God's story, with him as their focus, and the Esbats as celebrations of the Goddess, I think people would quickly learn to more greatly appreciate the importance of each in their purview, their theater of influence.

    Referring to the transcendent One as Goddess (e.g. Star Goddess) may confuse things a bit, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollie View Post
    Interesting! This is food for thought, especially the physical/nonphysical aspects of them.
    A trad I worked within was very similar to this. The God, at least his primary aspect as the horned god, was very much tied to physicality and life in the flesh.
    The goddess wasn't as mundane. I refrain myself from saying she was the spiritual aspect as I'm not convinced that is the right way to put it though in honesty sometimes she was seen that way.
    She was more of the inner planes the dream-scapes, the intuitive and the giver of trials which do manifest in the physical life but have their root inwardly.

    However the god also died every year and had his inward journey to tackle as he descended into the underworld. At the same time the light half of the year was the time of the goddess, and outward work was the focus. There was also the teaching that on the inner planes, things are reflected...opposite. roles are swapped. This makes a lot of sense if you apply Carl Jung's concept of the Anima and Animus.

    I wouldn't word it that the Goddess is Being and the God is becoming, but i get that and agree there is truth to it. The goddess is the experience, and part of that lesson is to accept things for what they are, an experience. The God is the experiencer, the individual pathos. his is the path, and the roads taken, the twist and terns of life and death... he faces the trials. He is the point in the circle, the perspective and our perspective is always changing and we change as our perspective changes. our circle is defined by where we are centrally. Now, our experience changes based on where we are, but that is because we are changing it though our observation. We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are. We have that filter, The goddess is between realms, between states and is, what we see of her is what we are ready to see...
    In the mythos, the God had that but left it behind, a sacrifice so that we could have our own time, and and place and progress accordingly. There's an aspect of him that remembers but he is cut off from it.
    His path then is our path, he is divided for the sake of our union.... and the more you delve into that the further down the rabbit hole you go and break out of your default sense of reality.

    I also agree that there is indeed a tendency we see whereby the sacred sense of the physical and mundane is devalued, which is why i was hesitant earlier to use the word physical. Your in a different space, a different place and state than that rarer glimpse people of think of as spiritual but it's still part of the same spectrum of experience. Even pagans who despite claiming a nature-centric path often get caught up in this.
    part of is that while experience is sacred the phsyical experience is sacred, it also easily overwhelms and leads to unhealthy patterns because we're so tied into it and order to have such contrast, abrasiveness is a consequence, the physical body takes on wear and tare and isn't as easily renewed, a little here goes further on higher planes/states.

    I don't think that can really account for the de-emphasis of the god, though unless that's the thought process of the background your coming from. If you are comeing from a more modern interpretation of one of the Abrahamic faiths, the scenario is reversed. it is the masculine that is considered more spiritual, often to the debasement of the feminine, where some time in the opposite extreme is need to process through the damage that can do. so you see people go full-out goddess for awhile until they are ready to establish a healthier relationship to the masculine archetype.

    Sure you can do that, the Sabbats for the god and Esbats for the goddess.... however,
    In some cultures the sun is the feminine one, and the moon the masculine
    Also, there's that whole Persephone-ish mythos of traveling into the underworld which tends explore the relationship between them.
    At the same time you've got to make sure you are hitting enough Esbats for balance...
    lastly, it is is also important to be able to be in the moment of each Sabbat individually as well as together as the whole wheel.
    Keep in mind where you are at, it'll by half a year before you are on the opposing spoke and it'll be a few days till the Esbat.
    If you wait long term for it to even out, the moment might seem like a rollarcoaster.
    The Earth seems perfectly round from space.


    They way we did Sabbats in the former group i was in, and how i do them in mine, is that the god and goddess are equal halves, however the dark halve of the year has emphasis on the god and the light half on the goddess. We also have mythos for two aspects of the god and two aspects of the goddess for both halves as well to show that. they are both equal dance partners, but one of them leads for half a year... Actually where they are prominent in he year is when they follow. She does to the underworld, he dies and follows ... you could have him die first but that's not how our mythos goes. he comes back with the light and she follows. Thinking about it now, there's a deep trust and vulnerability there, their dominence over that time of year comes from being able to trust and follow each-others lead. They're equal but they trust each-other to take care of one another when it is time for the other to be burdened with the weight of the sword... or staff/broom....

    this also means that while the solar current is often associated with the god, within it one sabbat is considered of the gods reign while the opposing sabbat is under the reign of the goddess so that every spoke is balance with the opposing spoke. for example, the goddess starts her halve of the year at Bealtaine, while the god stars his at Samhain. there's a transfer of power there but..... it takes both of them to initiate that transfer, it is always mutual.

    with the year divided by the goddess we have the White and Black Goddess, some trads see this as Hulda and Kolyo
    Really any figures fitting the archetype will work.
    with the year divided by the god we have the White and Black God, Lucifer and Hesperus/Vesper and also, Galoneda and Tsayi.

    Yes, well if it were more often explained that the Star Goddess is the part of the Goddess on the other side of the abyss and since she straddles it she's in touch with that aspect whereas the God is depicted as playing in the sandbox...... that would probably help.
    Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
    (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
    anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

  2. #12
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    Draco Jesi, this is absolutely beautiful:
    They way we did Sabbats in the former group i was in, and how i do them in mine, is that the god and goddess are equal halves, however the dark halve of the year has emphasis on the god and the light half on the goddess. We also have mythos for two aspects of the god and two aspects of the goddess for both halves as well to show that. they are both equal dance partners, but one of them leads for half a year... Actually where they are prominent in he year is when they follow. She does to the underworld, he dies and follows ... you could have him die first but that's not how our mythos goes. he comes back with the light and she follows. Thinking about it now, there's a deep trust and vulnerability there, their dominence over that time of year comes from being able to trust and follow each-others lead. They're equal but they trust each-other to take care of one another when it is time for the other to be burdened with the weight of the sword... or staff/broom....
    Especially the last two lines.

    In regards to the Father Sun/Mother Moon aspect, I just thought of something. (I say that because I literally thought of it while reading over these posts so I offer it for discussion, not as my personal beliefs). If we delve further into the previous aspect, and use the Father Sun to symbolize the physical world (external, your environment and experiences), and Mother Moon to symbolize the internal world (emotions, psyche, yourself, etc), then I find it interesting how that applies to science. Because the sun is what influences our environment and physical needs, while the moon reflects the sun's light. And that's about how well I can articulate on the subject right now... (Dumb, I know, but just a thought lol)

    I'm still learning what is applicable to my own practice, so I can't speak as to the esbats and the sabbats other than how the books I've read treat them. But the understanding I have of them based on much research is that Sabbats are a way to celebrate the world, and Esbats are to work on yourself. And I agree, I don't necessarily divide them into God/Goddess based on if it's a Sabbat or an Esbat, but rather break them down individually and go from there.

    As I said, fascinating discussion. =) Lots to think about.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollie View Post
    Draco Jesi, this is absolutely beautiful:
    Especially the last two lines.

    In regards to the Father Sun/Mother Moon aspect, I just thought of something. (I say that because I literally thought of it while reading over these posts so I offer it for discussion, not as my personal beliefs). If we delve further into the previous aspect, and use the Father Sun to symbolize the physical world (external, your environment and experiences), and Mother Moon to symbolize the internal world (emotions, psyche, yourself, etc), then I find it interesting how that applies to science. Because the sun is what influences our environment and physical needs, while the moon reflects the sun's light. And that's about how well I can articulate on the subject right now... (Dumb, I know, but just a thought lol)

    I'm still learning what is applicable to my own practice, so I can't speak as to the esbats and the sabbats other than how the books I've read treat them. But the understanding I have of them based on much research is that Sabbats are a way to celebrate the world, and Esbats are to work on yourself. And I agree, I don't necessarily divide them into God/Goddess based on if it's a Sabbat or an Esbat, but rather break them down individually and go from there.

    As I said, fascinating discussion. =) Lots to think about.
    I've always thought so,
    that interaction between them is something I've carried on from the previous group I worked with.
    The telling of mythos during the sabbats that I incorporate in my group structure is clearly the offspring of my time in that previous group.

    No, it's not dumb, however I'll leave you to collect your thoughts here instead of adding more to the brew right now, however there's a correlation here to the
    Sun and the Moon in astrology.

    Sabbats are very much tied into and rooted in the seasons, so yes my experience is that they are very much a celebration of the world.
    However, there's also emphasized the balance between this world and others, and how that has an influence on the seasons..
    Of life going within during winter, and coming closer to this world during the summer... the flow thereof between the worlds.
    Even tough we associate tides when the moon there are Solar-tides, which have often been associated with the vital tides of life itself.
    So there's some celebration of the underworld as well.
    Though I'm not sure how often that part of it is talked about in the various books out today.

    I also dedicate the moons to self and inner work, and also to needs/practical work.... in general the esbat has more of a "work" and "getting things done" even though
    the work of the year is celebrated at the sabbats. Despite the sabbats being tied to the harvest, they have a more celebratory nature to them. Whereas the Esbats tend to get at those things beyond the scenes, that work which allows for the turning of the solar wheel. Like "planting by the moon, and the signs" and work on deeper, inner planes that their influence here shall be beneficial. Working for the best manifestation of the Sabbat Wheel, and what it brings. The Esbat is where we find out what "it" is, and then we come to celebrate that at the Sabbat, and share what we have found in that season of our lives. There is much learned at the Sabbat, don't get me wrong but what people bare there in ritual, they've found by going down that rabbit hole associated with Moon.

    I dedicate the moon phases as such:

    Full Moon: Dedicated for initiates/working members of the Coven only or, first degree competency and compatibility with the Coven.
    Reserved for work to be done, either of practical magic(k) and general meeting date, such as planning events and such.
    Also, a time for working with Hekate. We may chose to do our own thing on the Full Moon, depending on how the month goes.

    Half/Liminal Moon: For working with the twins Lucifer and Vesper, conjoined as Baphomet.
    A time for working on getting into a liminal state of mind, connecting to the other side and piercing veils.

    New/Dark Moon: This one is generally reserved for the fam-trad traditions. The Cherokee harvest cycle isn't solar, it's lunar and based on the dark of the moon.
    I reserve this time for Cherokee and ancestral rites. It is for those of the 2nd degree when appropriate. These are inner planes formula. Sometimes, we'll do an inner-planes formula that isn't heavily Cherokee depending on who all is present. Much of what is usually done is not in English.

    The waxing and waning moons are used for growing things,

    The Sabbats we keep versatile, sometimes meeting up with other groups, so long as our our own tradition isn't being neglected. It is important to make time for that first.
    You know, to make sure you have your own space.
    Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
    (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
    anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gruagach View Post
    I'm not so sure that the God as Father isn't a big emphasis in Wicca.

    After all, Wicca is described frequently as being a fertility religion (at least it was by Gardner), and the Great Rite is considered by many to be the holiest of holy Wiccan rituals.
    Quote Originally Posted by DracoJesi View Post

    ....

    I cringe, I really do.
    Perhaps this would be better split into a new thread, but I wonder ... why do you find that cringe-worthy?

    Except for special occasions, the Great Rite is generally done with the Chalice and the Blade in a symbolic manner.
    Home is not a place, it's a feeling.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verily View Post
    Perhaps this would be better split into a new thread, but I wonder ... why do you find that cringe-worthy?

    Except for special occasions, the Great Rite is generally done with the Chalice and the Blade in a symbolic manner.
    I think you might misunderstand what I meant.
    The great rite and other innuendos in wicca do not make me cringe.
    What makes me cringe is the great ignorance out-there perpetrated by numerous McWicca 101 books.

    In particular I'm not a fan of radical feminist Wicca when does the same thing to the god thatothers have done to the feminine archetype.
    I do think there should be a place specifically for womens mysteries, however i can not call that Wicca.
    I understand that when one side is opressed, one often goes through the process of the other extreme before coming to a balance.
    but... again, not a fan.

    The goddess is very important in Wicca yet Wicca often gets consumed by vague and politically correct goddess spirituality.
    Tsalagi Nvwoti Didahnvwesgi Ale Didahnesesgi
    (Cherokee medicine practitioner of left and right hand paths)
    anikutani.stfu-kthx.net - The Anikutani Tradition

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoJesi View Post
    I think you might misunderstand what I meant.
    The great rite and other innuendos in wicca do not make me cringe.
    What makes me cringe is the great ignorance out-there perpetrated by numerous McWicca 101 books.

    In particular I'm not a fan of radical feminist Wicca when does the same thing to the god thatothers have done to the feminine archetype.
    I do think there should be a place specifically for womens mysteries, however i can not call that Wicca.
    I understand that when one side is opressed, one often goes through the process of the other extreme before coming to a balance.
    but... again, not a fan.

    The goddess is very important in Wicca yet Wicca often gets consumed by vague and politically correct goddess spirituality.
    Thanks for clearing that up.

    I agree that any practice that does not balance the God energy and the Goddess energy cannot rightly be called Wicca. As you said, it's still a valid spirituality, but it's just not Wicca.

    I can absolutely understand that some find Goddess only spirituality fulfilling, although it does seem a bit ironic. But it omits a basic premise of Wicca, and therefore is not Wicca.
    Home is not a place, it's a feeling.

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