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Thread: Atheist Evangelicalism

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by *~Amora~* View Post
    IMHO "Aggressive Atheism" is about those who demonstrate intolerance for those of faith and their beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by winterelf86 View Post
    Funny how people think tolerance only applies to them And that disagreeing with someone means I'm frightened of their ideas. Honestly, I could care less about what someone believes as long as it isn't harming me or those beliefs aren't be shoved down my throat.
    Quote Originally Posted by winterelf86 View Post
    I agree with your statement. I found it funny that there are atheists out there who whine and complain that they should be tolerated and thinking tolerance doesn't go both ways.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I had attacked you. I agree with you
    QFT. People need to learn to respect others, you don't have to agree with people on every single issue, you don't even have to believe in what people say, but, you should respect them. If a path has made someone happy and complete, that's all that matters, IMO. People shouldn't constantly criticise others, going "that's a dumb belief", "how can anyone intelligent believe that", "religious people are idiots", "Atheists are immoral", "you'd be better off following my way", etc, that, again IMO, isn't a good way to build a better world, and, if that's how people want to act, then, I think we'd be better off when Nature decides she's had enough of our infestation of her, and wipes us out (I haven't started to read his books yet, but, apparantly, that's what James Lovelock has said - Gaia (the planet) is a living ecosystem, and like all living bodies, it will fight off any preceived threats to itself).

  2. #22
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    I get what David was initially talking about by starting this thread.

    For example, I love Bill Maher and think he's hilarious...but every so often he has to take a "dig" at _all_ religious people, or people who believe in any kind of spirituality...and it can be annoying.

    Plus, there is also the fervency of the "newly-converted," which also applies to Atheists. A "new" Atheist is much more likely to act like a douche than someone who is secure in his/her beliefs, or in this case, a lack thereof.

    In my opinion, it all boils down to that basic concept of Pluralism versus Exclusivism. And yes, for many, Atheism is an Exclusivist concept...and there are a lot of Atheists out there using Exclusivist language.

    Example: An Exclusivist states that, "There is only One True Way. I know it. You are wrong." A Pluralist states that, "There may be many True Ways. I follow the one that seems most True to me." If your philosophy is, "I don't believe in any gods because I have examine the evidence and found no support for such a theory," then that is a perfectly reasonable philosophy. If your philosophy is, "I have examined the evidence and found no support for any gods. There are no gods. You are all wrong. I am right, and you are idiots"...well...it isn't really Fundamentalism or Evangelicalism...but it's still douchey...

    As I've written many times, my personal motto is, "The only false path is the belief in the existence of false paths." It's not perfect...as someone could dream up a "path" that stated that the only way to the Divine was to molest children...(I'll keep the obvious joke to myself)...but it usually works most of the time. And it applies to Atheists as well.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryonMorrigan View Post
    I get what David was initially talking about by starting this thread.

    For example, I love Bill Maher and think he's hilarious...but every so often he has to take a "dig" at _all_ religious people, or people who believe in any kind of spirituality...and it can be annoying.

    Plus, there is also the fervency of the "newly-converted," which also applies to Atheists. A "new" Atheist is much more likely to act like a douche than someone who is secure in his/her beliefs, or in this case, a lack thereof.

    In my opinion, it all boils down to that basic concept of Pluralism versus Exclusivism. And yes, for many, Atheism is an Exclusivist concept...and there are a lot of Atheists out there using Exclusivist language.

    Example: An Exclusivist states that, "There is only One True Way. I know it. You are wrong." A Pluralist states that, "There may be many True Ways. I follow the one that seems most True to me." If your philosophy is, "I don't believe in any gods because I have examine the evidence and found no support for such a theory," then that is a perfectly reasonable philosophy. If your philosophy is, "I have examined the evidence and found no support for any gods. There are no gods. You are all wrong. I am right, and you are idiots"...well...it isn't really Fundamentalism or Evangelicalism...but it's still douchey...

    As I've written many times, my personal motto is, "The only false path is the belief in the existence of false paths." It's not perfect...as someone could dream up a "path" that stated that the only way to the Divine was to molest children...(I'll keep the obvious joke to myself)...but it usually works most of the time. And it applies to Atheists as well.
    QFT, that's what I don't like, I don't understand why people have to put each other down, like, why is Dawkins so interested in bashing every religious person?, today, I even read that he says Agnostics "can't stay on the fence", that they have to "choose a side" (kind of like the language some gays, and straights, use against bi's, isn't it?). I'd also like to know why, in only the past few years have Atheists decided to get aggressive, is it just 'cause of the rise of religious extremism?.

    I don't like it when you get people like Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, others, etc, who say "science will eventually, and must, destroy religion", it's BS. IMO, that's just an attempt by certain people to make everyone the "same", diversity should be celebrated - culturally, religiously, spiritually, etc. No differences should matter.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by David19 View Post
    I've noticed that some Atheists just, basically, seem to say exactly the same things as the fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam (along with other religions), e.g. like they think they've got the "true" path, they seem to make fun of those who believe in God(s), or anything spiritual, in short, they just seem mean, and bitter. It makes me wonder if they have any friends who are part of a religion, 'cause the way some of them look upon Theists, or anyone Spiritual, I don't see how they could be friends (I also see religious Fundamentalists the same way, like, how many friends they may have, or if they're truly happy, 'cause, I don't think anyone can really be happy, unless they're just a natural born bully, by insulting, or making fun of others).

    Anyway, I just wanted to get other Non-Theist opinions of what you think of certain Atheists who do seem to the fit the above pattern?, do you think that'll ever change, or, if they're simply a minority (that will hopefully die out, along with other Fundamentalists).

    We question the belief of gods, thats all it is. Some attempt to more understanding and "nice" - other just call bullshit and are more up front about it.

    The fact is people like Dawkins won't say well thats BS - but rather question why and present your evidence to back up your belief. I don't see that as a bad thing but a progressive point of view to move foward.

    Question, inquire, critical, don't simply demand respect because you believe in whatever - back it up; I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

    This type of thinking is also what brought western society to where it is today. It didn't come in the form of religous dogma - in came in the form of critical thinking and opposition from logical thought.

    I don't understand why you would be against this - such as a religous dogma holding the belief that all gays are evil - ok, question that, why is that, use logical thought against it or for it.

    Basic stuff here. Why should it be that a *religous* belief automatically have respect but the idea that its ridiculous, and question it, somehow shouldn't equate to that same type of respect?

    Most religions are complete utter nonsense bullshit. Why do you think my view shouldn't demand automatic respect but religous views should?

    It's hypocritical.

    So say all views should demand respect - I say all views should be held to scrutiny, and respect is earned not given.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiel View Post
    We question the belief of gods, thats all it is. Some attempt to more understanding and "nice" - other just call bullshit and are more up front about it.

    The fact is people like Dawkins won't say well thats BS - but rather question why and present your evidence to back up your belief. I don't see that as a bad thing but a progressive point of view to move foward.

    Question, inquire, critical, don't simply demand respect because you believe in whatever - back it up; I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

    This type of thinking is also what brought western society to where it is today. It didn't come in the form of religous dogma - in came in the form of critical thinking and opposition from logical thought.

    I don't understand why you would be against this - such as a religous dogma holding the belief that all gays are evil - ok, question that, why is that, use logical thought against it or for it.

    Basic stuff here. Why should it be that a *religous* belief automatically have respect but the idea that its ridiculous, and question it, somehow shouldn't equate to that same type of respect?

    Most religions are complete utter nonsense bullshit. Why do you think my view shouldn't demand automatic respect but religous views should?

    It's hypocritical.

    So say all views should demand respect - I say all views should be held to scrutiny, and respect is earned not given.
    It leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths because for most religious people, thier spirituality is a very personal thing and having people constantly question something that's an important part of their self image, especially when the apologists are smug jackasses about (which does happen more frequently than people here seem to want to admit).

    Of course I take a pretty dim view on spiritual apologists anyway, since in addition to generally being pushy none of them absolute definite proof to back up their position on whatever higher power (or lack thereof) is being discussed. It's basically a con game, no matter who's doing it.
    "The word "natural" is completely meaningless! Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It's not just trees and flowers! It's everything! A chemical company's toxic waste is completely natural! It's part of the nature! We're all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog shit is natural! It's just not real good food!" George Carlin

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nox_Mortus View Post
    It leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths because for most religious people, thier spirituality is a very personal thing and having people constantly question something that's an important part of their self image.
    Thats really what this thread boils down to - questioning their religion leads to a bad taste in their mouth and it can be offensive.

    The ironic part is that many people here are Pagan - so did their questioning of Christians, when they just said they should should just shut up and keep it to themselves and even burned them at the stake for it, not any different from whats going on in here?

    You just need to shut up and keep that shit to yourself.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiel View Post
    Thats really what this thread boils down to - questioning their religion leads to a bad taste in their mouth and it can be offensive.

    The ironic part is that many people here are Pagan - so did their questioning of Christians, when they just said they should should just shut up and keep it to themselves and even burned them at the stake for it, not any different from whats going on in here?

    You just need to shut up and keep that shit to yourself.

    I will say that theirs a difference between questioning the belief in a deity on "logical" grounds and questioning the actions of religious groups on ethical grounds, if one groups actions is bringing harm to another group then it should obviously be questioned, the problem is that a lot of these apologists will go after people who are just keeping to themselves and have no desire to force their religious beliefs on anyone, and that's where a lot of the dislike comes from, that and the general smugness associated with this sort of thing.
    "The word "natural" is completely meaningless! Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It's not just trees and flowers! It's everything! A chemical company's toxic waste is completely natural! It's part of the nature! We're all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog shit is natural! It's just not real good food!" George Carlin

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiel View Post
    Thats really what this thread boils down to - questioning their religion leads to a bad taste in their mouth and it can be offensive.
    Yeah, I think that's why, despite agreeing with many of the statements made in some of the threads concerning atheism or atheists around here, I ultimately don't care for the idea of people being questioned about their beliefs. Because that shit is personal. And for many, faith is part of their identity, it's part of how they see themselves, how others see them. There's no particularly good reason that someone should have to "answer for" their beliefs.

    The ironic part is that many people here are Pagan - so did their questioning of Christians, when they just said they should should just shut up and keep it to themselves and even burned them at the stake for it, not any different from whats going on in here?

    You just need to shut up and keep that shit to yourself.
    I personally don't think you need to shut up about your beliefs. You, or anyone else. Tell people what you believe. But I DO think that if part of your belief system involves harassing other people...well...you might need to step back and reevaluate. It's like that saying--your right to swing your fist stops where my face begins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nox_Mortus View Post
    I will say that theirs a difference between questioning the belief in a deity on "logical" grounds and questioning the actions of religious groups on ethical grounds, if one groups actions is bringing harm to another group then it should obviously be questioned, the problem is that a lot of these apologists will go after people who are just keeping to themselves and have no desire to force their religious beliefs on anyone, and that's where a lot of the dislike comes from, that and the general smugness associated with this sort of thing.
    Right, you summed up what I personally find distasteful about some of the comments that have been made around here. It's one thing to go after religious groups on ethical grounds. It's one thing even to question people who are being douchebags in the name of religion. It is another thing entirely to make blanket statements about ALL people of faith, and to attack people who've done nothing more than believe in a god.
    Last edited by Cielamara; May 18th, 2010 at 02:14 AM.
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  9. #29
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    Here is what I find completely and utterly hilarious.
    People are saying we shouldn’t criticize, laugh at or challenge other peoples believes because the believes are PERSONAL.
    Not that would imply that it’s not something you would go about throwing in other people’s faces, yeah?

    My relationship with my best friend is a personal thing. I don’t talk about it with just anyone, and more often than not, if I do it’s because I want advice on something that has happened or because it has something to do with what we’re talking about. Either way I am prepared that people might criticize me for being friends with said person because of age difference, gender difference, cultural reasons… whatever. I might not like it, and I might get shitty if someone says something I don’t want to hear, but unless it’s outright rude I have it coming. I’ve brought something personal into light and I am holding a public conversation about it.

    Someone who runs around with a badge on their chest that says “Proud Pagan/Christian/Muslim/Hoodist/Pastafaraian” is not conducting a “personal religious belief” as in “private”. If you then start talking to me out of the blue about… let’s say… how Odin is such a misunderstood deity and that he’s really awesome and your personal teacher and he told you this and that I will laugh in your face.
    1. Because he’s a cheating, gambling, stealing old man of a mythological and fictional nature
    2. Because you just threw something in my face that has got nothing to do with me or anything I would be remotely interested in discussing.

    If you do these things and expect me to not call you out on it because “belief” is something personal you’ve missed the effin’ point about what “personal” means in regards to this.
    Most of us Atheists don’t call you out on things in your “Path” forums at all. Most of us don’t even go there. I do, every once in a while, and I am fairly sure that, unless it didn’t say so in my profile, if you’ve only seen me in… for example the Asatru path forum, you can’t really tell that I am an Atheist at all, because I tilt my head, smile and play frickin' nice. Because I might be discussing Odin's qualities in mythology.

    Don’t expect us to sit quietly and watch everybody else talk just because you don’t agree with what we have to say. You make a public, positive claim, back it up, and yes… you can tell me I’m rude for asking, but I can also tell you you’re a hypocrite for barging into the “Non-Theistic” path section and telling us how rude, disrespectful, …. And yada, yada, yada effin’ yada we are. I don't care if you do this, but don't be an 'effing hypocrite about it.
    If you want to keep it personal and unchallenged, talk about it in the Paths sections. If you can't handle someone questioning something you have to say, keep it to yourself and don't post it on a public discussion forum. Because as soon as you make it PUBLIC, it's not PERSONAL anymore.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Here is what I find completely and utterly hilarious.
    People are saying we shouldn’t criticize, laugh at or challenge other peoples believes because the believes are PERSONAL.
    Not that would imply that it’s not something you would go about throwing in other people’s faces, yeah?
    I wouldn't say you shouldn't, but you shouldn't expect to respected by those people either. Nor should you expect anyone to take you seriously. Especially if you laugh in thier face and whatnot, you can have the most reasonable argument in the world, but it wont matter if you've already pissed off the people you are arguing with.
    Last edited by Nox_Mortus; May 18th, 2010 at 04:08 AM.
    "The word "natural" is completely meaningless! Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It's not just trees and flowers! It's everything! A chemical company's toxic waste is completely natural! It's part of the nature! We're all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog shit is natural! It's just not real good food!" George Carlin

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