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Thread: Atheist Evangelicalism

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nox_Mortus View Post
    I wouldn't say you shouldn't, but you shouldn't expect to respected by those people either. Nor should you expect anyone to take you seriously. Especially if you laugh in thier face and whatnot, you can have the most reasonable argument in the world, but it wont matter if you've already pissed off the people you are arguing with.
    If you throw God and all the purple and pink ponys in my face without reason I don't give a shite about respect from you, and if I chose the path of laughing in your face it's most likely because you're too absurd to even inspire sane discussions.
    I don't laugh and then present logic arguments. I present logic arguments and then laugh.
    Previously known as Njorun Alma


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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    If you throw God and all the purple and pink ponys in my face without reason I don't give a shite about respect from you, and if I chose the path of laughing in your face it's most likely because you're too absurd to even inspire sane discussions.
    I don't laugh and then present logic arguments. I present logic arguments and then laugh.
    Either way, you've still lost...
    "The word "natural" is completely meaningless! Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It's not just trees and flowers! It's everything! A chemical company's toxic waste is completely natural! It's part of the nature! We're all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog shit is natural! It's just not real good food!" George Carlin

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nox_Mortus View Post
    I wouldn't say you shouldn't, but you shouldn't expect to respected by those people either.
    In truth, the people we laugh at do not respect reason to begin with, so we lose little in laughing.

    Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know. ~ M. King Hubbert

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Grey View Post
    In truth, the people we laugh at do not respect reason to begin with, so we lose little in laughing.

    That's an awful big assumption, ever stop think that they just don't respect arguments form people who act like smug jackasses? I'm mean sure there's always going to be people who don't listen to reason, but there are also people who just aren't going to listen to people who act completely full of themselves, no matter how well reasons and logically sound their arguments are. I mean this is really basic PR skills here.
    "The word "natural" is completely meaningless! Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It's not just trees and flowers! It's everything! A chemical company's toxic waste is completely natural! It's part of the nature! We're all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog shit is natural! It's just not real good food!" George Carlin

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Here is what I find completely and utterly hilarious.
    People are saying we shouldn’t criticize, laugh at or challenge other peoples believes because the believes are PERSONAL.
    Not that would imply that it’s not something you would go about throwing in other people’s faces, yeah?
    Yes, in general.

    My relationship with my best friend is a personal thing. I don’t talk about it with just anyone, and more often than not, if I do it’s because I want advice on something that has happened or because it has something to do with what we’re talking about. Either way I am prepared that people might criticize me for being friends with said person because of age difference, gender difference, cultural reasons… whatever. I might not like it, and I might get pooperiffic if someone says something I don’t want to hear, but unless it’s outright rude I have it coming. I’ve brought something personal into light and I am holding a public conversation about it.
    I disagree. I do not think that you mentioning your relationship with your best friend means that you've opened yourself up for people to say ANYTHING. There are social rules that we largely abide by. If you were telling me about this person, and I were not a very close friend...I'd not say anything to criticize him/her. Because, well, that'd just be rude as hell. And it would be wrong. Could I do it? Sure. But there would be a social price to pay for acting in such a way, and there would be no benefit for me. So, why would I?

    Someone who runs around with a badge on their chest that says “Proud Pagan/Christian/Muslim/Hoodist/Pastafaraian” is not conducting a “personal religious belief” as in “private”. If you then start talking to me out of the blue about… let’s say… how Odin is such a misunderstood deity and that he’s really awesome and your personal teacher and he told you this and that I will laugh in your face.
    1. Because he’s a cheating, gambling, stealing old man of a mythological and fictional nature
    2. Because you just threw something in my face that has got nothing to do with me or anything I would be remotely interested in discussing.
    Things can be personal without being private. They can be sources of great tenderness and sensitivity for people. For example...hmm, let me think. Okay. I have generalized anxiety disorder, as well as ADHD. These are things I'm fairly open about, because of the way they affect my life on a day-to-day basis, but they're still...personal. Meaning, it would not be okay to, say, do as my sister did recently and come in and start telling me that I didn't actually have these problems and really just needed to take more vitamins--it's something I'm open about, but something that does not belong in a round-table discussion, you know? You COULD do that, but what would it accomplish? I'd feel like SHIT and you'd LOOK like a shitty person.

    Likewise, when I say that religion is personal for many people, I mean that, while it may not be a PRIVATE matter for some people, it's something that means a great deal to them, that has a lot of emotion tied up in it. Religious experiences are frequently very emotional experiences. And it is virtually impossible sometimes to separate the beliefs from the emotions.

    If you do these things and expect me to not call you out on it because “belief” is something personal you’ve missed the effin’ point about what “personal” means in regards to this.
    Most of us Atheists don’t call you out on things in your “Path” forums at all. Most of us don’t even go there. I do, every once in a while, and I am fairly sure that, unless it didn’t say so in my profile, if you’ve only seen me in… for example the Asatru path forum, you can’t really tell that I am an Atheist at all, because I tilt my head, smile and play frickin' nice. Because I might be discussing Odin's qualities in mythology.
    I'm not calling you out, saying your beliefs are wrong. I never said that. I'm saying that deliberately and knowingly antagonizing people is generally a sucky thing to do.

    Don’t expect us to sit quietly and watch everybody else talk just because you don’t agree with what we have to say. You make a public, positive claim, back it up, and yes… you can tell me I’m rude for asking, but I can also tell you you’re a hypocrite for barging into the “Non-Theistic” path section and telling us how rude, disrespectful, …. And yada, yada, yada effin’ yada we are. I don't care if you do this, but don't be an 'effing hypocrite about it.
    Wow. I'm sorry my presence here has offended you so much.

    I've never told you to sit quietly and watch everyone else talk. I've never told you that what you believe is wrong. I don't CARE what you believe in, or don't believe in. I just don't like seeing people upset. And when you [general you] insist on interrogating and harassing people about something that they feel very strongly about, that's very meaningful to them...that's what you get. People upset, and for no damn good reason.
    The possibilities are endless.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nox_Mortus View Post
    Either way, you've still lost...
    I've lost nothing.

    I really do fail to see what the heck you're getting at. I lose because I laugh? I lose because I laugh at ridiculous situations? What do I lose? The opportunity to again try and tell people that I don't care if their imaginary friend tells me I'm going to hell for all eternity calmly and logically?
    Laughing saves time and usually gets me left alone quicker.
    I think I win in that circumstance.
    Previously known as Njorun Alma


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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cielamara View Post
    Yes, in general.



    I disagree. I do not think that you mentioning your relationship with your best friend means that you've opened yourself up for people to say ANYTHING. There are social rules that we largely abide by. If you were telling me about this person, and I were not a very close friend...I'd not say anything to criticize him/her. Because, well, that'd just be rude as hell. And it would be wrong. Could I do it? Sure. But there would be a social price to pay for acting in such a way, and there would be no benefit for me. So, why would I?
    *shrugs* Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree and the social rules we've both been raised into are obviously very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielamara View Post
    Things can be personal without being private. They can be sources of great tenderness and sensitivity for people. For example...hmm, let me think. Okay. I have generalized anxiety disorder, as well as ADHD. These are things I'm fairly open about, because of the way they affect my life on a day-to-day basis, but they're still...personal. Meaning, it would not be okay to, say, do as my sister did recently and come in and start telling me that I didn't actually have these problems and really just needed to take more vitamins--it's something I'm open about, but something that does not belong in a round-table discussion, you know? You COULD do that, but what would it accomplish? I'd feel like SHIT and you'd LOOK like a pooperrific person.
    I come from a country where
    1. If it's that damned personal, don't talk about it.
    2. If you ARE willing to talk about it in a public venue, be prepared that you just might have some flack coming your way. Believe me, I've had that happen to me plenty of times.

    AND I wouldn't compare wanting evidence for a claim and someone telling you that you don't have this and that is the same thing. IF you have those problems you have evidence for it, if you haven't been diagnosed with it that's a whole other thing. Right?
    I laugh at people when they walk around saying that they suffer from Borderline but they've never been diagnosed or know exactly what it entails. It was an extremely "in" thing to have there for a while, goodness knows why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielamara View Post
    Likewise, when I say that religion is personal for many people, I mean that, while it may not be a PRIVATE matter for some people, it's something that means a great deal to them, that has a lot of emotion tied up in it. Religious experiences are frequently very emotional experiences. And it is virtually impossible sometimes to separate the beliefs from the emotions.

    I'm not calling you out, saying your beliefs are wrong. I never said that. I'm saying that deliberately and knowingly antagonizing people is generally a sucky thing to do.
    I never deliberately and knowingly try to be hostile towards people or make enemies with them. I will stand in opposition to them, but I can't help what I "believe".

    There are plenty of things that are emotional to me that people wouldn't think twice about shitting all over, and frequently don't care if it's got emotions tied up in it. If it's so extremely emotional then why isn't it discussed in the more personal and private areas of the public instead of from a soap box, because I do not go out of my way to disagree with people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cielamara View Post
    Wow. I'm sorry my presence here has offended you so much.

    I've never told you to sit quietly and watch everyone else talk. I've never told you that what you believe is wrong. I don't CARE what you believe in, or don't believe in. I just don't like seeing people upset. And when you [general you] insist on interrogating and harassing people about something that they feel very strongly about, that's very meaningful to them...that's what you get. People upset, and for no damn good reason.
    You haven't offended me. I didn't specefy this post towards anyone in particular, but if you feel like it was about you... then feel free to feel that way.
    Hypocrisy has offended me, you as a person haven't.
    By hypocrisy I mean the people who are coming into our path forum and being openly rude while criticizing us in general of being a rude group, while if we were to do anything remotely similar in their path forum they would try and get us off this site.
    That's what I mean about hypocrisy.

    I don't give a shit if people actually DO come in here and tell us that we're rude and bad people. But in such case they should be able to accept criticism back.
    Previously known as Njorun Alma


    "A mind of the calibre of mine cannot derive its nutriment from cows." - George Bernard Shaw


  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    *shrugs* Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree and the social rules we've both been raised into are obviously very different.
    That thought has crossed my mind once or twice. I like you, though, and have enjoyed debating with you.

    I come from a country where
    1. If it's that damned personal, don't talk about it.
    2. If you ARE willing to talk about it in a public venue, be prepared that you just might have some flack coming your way. Believe me, I've had that happen to me plenty of times.
    I wouldn't say our social rules on this are all that different. I just happen to feel differently about some things. Like, I accept that if you say something, you might have flack coming your way. I accept that shit happens like that. HOWEVER, I don't feel it's necessarily FAIR or RIGHT. And that "life isn't fair" thing has never been a valid excuse to me.

    AND I wouldn't compare wanting evidence for a claim and someone telling you that you don't have this and that is the same thing. IF you have those problems you have evidence for it, if you haven't been diagnosed with it that's a whole other thing. Right?
    Right. It was more a comparison for the appropriateness factor. Like, the two don't necessarily line up, but...there's a time for such things, you know? Like, if I were to mention, oh, you know, I take Lexapro to treat my anxiety problems, but I'm still having some problems, and my sister were to say, oh, you know, you could try doing this and this to help too--that would be a completely appropriate time and place for her comments. Likewise, with regards to religion...if we were talking about religion, and you asked me why I believed what I believe, then that'd be appropriate. But if it comes out of nowhere, and/or has any sort of hostility, condescension, etc, etc, in it...that's not appropriate, to me. And I'd be hurt.

    I laugh at people when they walk around saying that they suffer from Borderline but they've never been diagnosed or know exactly what it entails. It was an extremely "in" thing to have there for a while, goodness knows why.
    I've noticed that. They do it with ADHD and OCD as well. I tend to have to count to ten and entertain violent little fantasies when they do that around me.

    I never deliberately and knowingly try to be hostile towards people or make enemies with them. I will stand in opposition to them, but I can't help what I "believe".
    I didn't say you did. But there are some people who do. And it is mostly them that I take issue with, not you--if you're being a decent and polite sort, I'm cool with you. You just happen to be the one I'm debating with.

    There are plenty of things that are emotional to me that people wouldn't think twice about shitting all over, and frequently don't care if it's got emotions tied up in it.
    I defend anyone and everyone's touchy and sensitive spots. If someone were to shit all over you, I'd defend you. Just sayin'.

    If it's so extremely emotional then why isn't it discussed in the more personal and private areas of the public instead of from a soap box, because I do not go out of my way to disagree with people.
    Because people are weird. I don't even know. This is a hard topic to argue logically, because religion just isn't logical. It was never meant to be. No one has ever claimed it was. And if they did, they were balls-to-the-wall crazy.

    You haven't offended me. I didn't specefy this post towards anyone in particular, but if you feel like it was about you... then feel free to feel that way.
    Hypocrisy has offended me, you as a person haven't.
    By hypocrisy I mean the people who are coming into our path forum and being openly rude while criticizing us in general of being a rude group, while if we were to do anything remotely similar in their path forum they would try and get us off this site.
    That's what I mean about hypocrisy.

    I don't give a shit if people actually DO come in here and tell us that we're rude and bad people. But in such case they should be able to accept criticism back.
    Oh, okay. That's cool. I don't think you as a person or y'all as a group are rude. Like I've been saying, I just don't like seeing people upset. That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm a sensitive sort.

    ...

    Wait, do you think I'm being hypocritical? I really don't mean to be.

    (I apologize if I'm a bit muddled. I haven't slept yet.)
    The possibilities are endless.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nox_Mortus View Post
    That's an awful big assumption, ever stop think that they just don't respect arguments form people who act like smug jackasses? I'm mean sure there's always going to be people who don't listen to reason, but there are also people who just aren't going to listen to people who act completely full of themselves, no matter how well reasons and logically sound their arguments are. I mean this is really basic PR skills here.

    No shit Sherlock. In the realms of these debates you have your "calm, logical and polite" debaters and you have your "look how stupid you are" crowd. I wonder who gets through to more people? Hmmm?

    I say we need both - nothing gets people talking more than someone that rocks the boat.

    And before people go on the predictable lecture of "how does that make you better than the fundies" it's quite simple. We're not blowing people up, we're not advocating oppression and hate, we're not trying pollute the education systems... all we're doing is pointing and laughing. If all fundies were like us, the world would be a much better place

    Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know. ~ M. King Hubbert

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Grey View Post
    ...nothing gets people talking more than someone that rocks the boat [by pointing and laughing].
    Ughhh, yeah, and repulses them away from your point of view.
    Last edited by *~Amora~*; May 18th, 2010 at 02:50 PM.
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    I begin to sing of Pallas Athene, the glorious goddess, bright-eyed, inventive, unbending of heart, pure virgin, saviour of cities, courageous, Tritogeneia. From his awful head wise Zeus himself bare her arrayed in warlike arms of flashing gold, and awe seized all the gods as they gazed. But Athena sprang quickly from the immortal head and stood before Zeus who holds the aegis, shaking a sharp spear: great Olympus began to reel horribly at the might of the bright-eyed goddess, and earth round about cried fearfully, and the sea was moved and tossed with dark waves, while foam burst forth suddenly: the bright Son of Hyperion stopped his swift-footed horses a long while, until the maiden Pallas Athene had stripped the heavenly armour from her immortal shoulders. And wise Zeus was glad. And so hail to you, daughter of Zeus who holds the aegis!
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