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Thread: Lilith / Working with Spirits

  1. #1
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    issues with Lilith / having a problem with my patron

    Greetings! I have some questions that seem best posed here and I thank you in advance for reading.

    On the advise of a friend I prepared a meal for my ancestors last All Souls. I found, to my surprise, that I can hear spirits quite clearly.

    Around that time, I had repeatedly come across the story of Lilith and found her compelling. Although it's debatable, I didn't think she was a demon but a feminine spirit maligned by increasingly patriarchal societies. I decided not to summon her but to try preparing a meal for her as well. Her feast is a few days after All Soul's. I felt her presence as I cooked and this grew stronger as we shared a meal. I found we could actually... converse. Yes, that sounds insane, lol.

    I enjoyed her company and in the next month I set up a simple altar for her. As back story, I should add that my life had been pretty difficult and I was deep in depression. Lilith helped me get on my feet, get through the day and certainly contributed to serious improvements in my life. It's really been amazing.

    It seems however that she prevents me from connecting with men even as friends. I'm also having some trouble when I try to work with Kabalah and when I went to mass (not a usual event) two class votives burst and other candles went out, which could be coincidence. But I suspect she didn't like church. These things shouldn't be too surprising, considering her myths. I mean she is evolving, but I guess there is also truth to them.

    The other thing I seem to be observing, as a new student of African Traditional Religion, is that she is not seeming to get along well with my Saint (guardian). Altogether, I am feeling a lot of pressure, like I've set off a battle. Or two.

    Any ideas on sorting things out? I enjoy working with her and she's brought me good things, but I'd like to have normal friendships, work with my Saint, practice ATR and attend Mass, if need be.

    Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Much luv!

    ~ Circe
    Last edited by Circe; July 7th, 2010 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    To me, I view Lilith as a very powerful demon, who, perhaps, may have evolved into some type of Goddess/divine figure (in certain Jewish sources, when The Shekinah was sent into Exile with the Jews, YHWH was said to have taken Lilith as his consort and elevated her to that position, in order to keep the universe running smoothly (it depends on the balance of male and female energy or something similar).

    There's been a lot of threads on Lilith in the Gods & Goddesses forum, so, maybe do a search for more info, but, that said, here's a recent good thread on her. I mainly agree with what the poster RoseKitten says about her.

    Hope this helps .

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    Although it's debatable, I didn't think she was a demon but a feminine spirit maligned by increasingly patriarchal societies.
    I'm far too tired to really answer the rest of your post, but I might not want to depending on your answer to my next question.

    How do you demonize a being who's first recording, was in fact, that of a demon? Lilith was known for doing horrible things. She wasn't demonized over time, but started as a demon.
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    One, it depends on what you consider a demon to be. It's it something evil, or just something of a different energy vibration. Also, you have to look at who and what type of society is recording anything about them. How do they look at women, what are all the myths, cause in some myths it says she carried out the wraiths of Ishtar, which meaning she did someone else's dirty work. You also have to remember that even God, who's suppose to love you and wanting nothing but good for you has been very vengeful and cruel in the past and is still known to put people in an eternity of pain and suffering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kagekarasu View Post
    One, it depends on what you consider a demon to be. It's it something evil, or just something of a different energy vibration. Also, you have to look at who and what type of society is recording anything about them. How do they look at women, what are all the myths, cause in some myths it says she carried out the wraiths of Ishtar, which meaning she did someone else's dirty work. You also have to remember that even God, who's suppose to love you and wanting nothing but good for you has been very vengeful and cruel in the past and is still known to put people in an eternity of pain and suffering.
    Considering that Inanna and Ishtar were both very well respected, no, I wouldn't buy that it was society that "demonized" Lilith. She carried out the dirty work of Inanna because she refused to leave her alone. It wasn't that Inanna forced her into anything, but that when she was off doing whatever task she was given, she wasn't bothering Inanna.

    Your comment about God is irrelevant in this thread, by the way.
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  6. #6
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    @ David - Thank you for sending me over there. I see Gods / Goddesses would have been a more appropriate place to post. <_< There's a lot of great content over there and it's already been helpful. Also, I apologize to anyone who's bothered by this thread being here. If anyone asks, I'll try to have it moved.

    @RoseKitten - That's a good point. Usually, gods are demonized when one culture tries to overthrow another.

    I was skeptical that she was demon from the start because the first thing I read about her said she was held responsible for nocturnal emissions. That disease was blamed on her in a time and place where people had no concept of germ theory didn't seem credible either. Likewise with infant mortality. And hearing that men blamed lust and problems with performance on a spirit smacks of "the devil made me do it." Was she a prostitute or the beautiful girl everyone was jealous of and labeled a slut? Of course, that is some pretty serious revisionism on my part and I see the error in trying to redeem her in this manner. It is important to examine history in it's context, but to sanitize Lilith is to take her out of context.

    I wondered, who was she, that her story takes her from common wind spirit to demon and then possibly goddess? Something kept her not only from being lost, but actually moving from Mesopotamia to Sumeria and Babylon to Canaan to Europe to the Americas. It's pretty incredible in terms of evolution and geographic progression. Each thing I learned compelled me to do more research and the dissenting views on her identity persuaded me that she had become a goddess.

    @ kagekarasu - I agree, my friend, it completely depends on perspective and, of course, several things can be true at once. And I see what you're saying about God. Just as he has negative emanations in the duality of creation and has been known to deliver unpleasant punishments, experiences with demons can apparently have some pleasant aspects. But even though energy is neutral, it can have effects which from our perspective may not seem so neutral. And here it comes down to choice; what effects do you want to create? I've found that I don't like all the consequences of working with Lilith's energy, not that it hasn't been heady!

    I should say, from my latest research she wasn't exactly some independent woman maligned by patriarchy. Independant and female yes, but maligned, not so much. Contrary to my assumptions, it seems Mesopotamian culture wasn't misogynistic as the Abrahamic faiths have more recently been. It seems to have been more balanced and included female deities; not denying the feminine aspect of God. As for the specific accusations, I think I'm going to stick closer to the original myths that also ascribe her with a uniquely free will.

    Thank you very much, David, RoseKitten and kagekarasu, for your responses and help!
    Last edited by Circe; July 5th, 2010 at 06:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kagekarasu View Post
    One, it depends on what you consider a demon to be. It's it something evil, or just something of a different energy vibration. Also, you have to look at who and what type of society is recording anything about them. How do they look at women, what are all the myths, cause in some myths it says she carried out the wraiths of Ishtar, which meaning she did someone else's dirty work. You also have to remember that even God, who's suppose to love you and wanting nothing but good for you has been very vengeful and cruel in the past and is still known to put people in an eternity of pain and suffering.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoseKitten View Post
    Considering that Inanna and Ishtar were both very well respected, no, I wouldn't buy that it was society that "demonized" Lilith. She carried out the dirty work of Inanna because she refused to leave her alone. It wasn't that Inanna forced her into anything, but that when she was off doing whatever task she was given, she wasn't bothering Inanna.

    Your comment about God is irrelevant in this thread, by the way.
    I very much agree with RoseKitten, the Sumerians may not have been a perfect utopia for women, but, that has no bearing on Lilith being a demon (Inanna was also one of the most popular Gods of the Mesopotamians as well).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post

    @RoseKitten - That's a good point. Usually, gods are demonized when one culture tries to overthrow another.

    I was skeptical that she was demon from the start because the first thing I read about her said she was held responsible for nocturnal emissions. That disease was blamed on her in a time and place where people had no concept of germ theory didn't seem credible either. Likewise with infant mortality.
    Who says she isn't the one behind the germs and diseases. It was commonly thought through Sumer that demons of various sorts were responsible for diseases. Just because since pinpoint the "real" stuff behind it, doesn't change that belief. If since proves that there's a specific mechanism behind how magic works, would that change the fact that it works?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David19 View Post
    I very much agree with RoseKitten, the Sumerians may not have been a perfect utopia for women, but, that has no bearing on Lilith being a demon (Inanna was also one of the most popular Gods of the Mesopotamians as well).
    Also, not to forget that ancient Mesopotamia wasn't a dystopia for women either. While it was a patriarchy, it did allow women to own land in some parts, and have freedom not found in the west for much later. While not equal to men, it was far better than people might assumed ancient Iraq to be. Women could own their own land, even their own buisnesses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseKitten View Post
    Who says she isn't the one behind the germs and diseases. It was commonly thought through Sumer that demons of various sorts were responsible for diseases. Just because since pinpoint the "real" stuff behind it, doesn't change that belief. If since proves that there's a specific mechanism behind how magic works, would that change the fact that it works?
    Interesting perspective, and actually, I quite like that. It reminds me of something I read on a Jewish forum, about demonology, one Jew said, what people called demons, we now call viruses and bacteria - things we can't see, but, cause harm, or, in other cases (in Judaism, there are good demons, as well as evil). I think I actually do like that view. Maybe it is Lilith who's responsible for cot deaths, there might be a specific cause for it that science has discovered, but, she could still be what causes it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninurta2008 View Post
    Also, not to forget that ancient Mesopotamia wasn't a dystopia for women either. While it was a patriarchy, it did allow women to own land in some parts, and have freedom not found in the west for much later. While not equal to men, it was far better than people might assumed ancient Iraq to be. Women could own their own land, even their own buisnesses.
    Very true, in some respects, women had it better than they do now in Iraq, and other parts of the Middle East.

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