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Thread: Lilith / Working with Spirits

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseKitten View Post
    Considering that Inanna and Ishtar were both very well respected, no, I wouldn't buy that it was society that "demonized" Lilith. She carried out the dirty work of Inanna because she refused to leave her alone. It wasn't that Inanna forced her into anything, but that when she was off doing whatever task she was given, she wasn't bothering Inanna.
    How did she refuse not to leave her alone. I understand perfectly that she followed Inanna around and asked what it was she could do for her, but she was Inanna's servant and that's what a servant does.

    It can said society demonized her, as most of the myths surrounding her have to do with two things mostly, her being something similar to a succubus and eating babies. Now yes, the eating babies is bad, but I can also see that stemming from her sexual behaviors and angry wives blaming her for either their husbands unfaithfulness plus them having a miscarriage, which for hundreds of years was said you could have one by your husband sleeping with someone else, especially something demonic.

    Lilith was also known through certain myths to be a prostitute and even the handmaiden/ head prostitute of Ishtar, and where in history have prostitutes not been considered blood sucking, disease spreading husband stealers who were also thought or even made to be baron, which is said to be part of the reason Lilith supposedly killed babies to begin with.

    Like I said, society could have very well demonized Lilith due to her acts and revolting against the way she was suppose to act in society. Now yes, in those times it can be said that women were said to be better off than parts of Iraq right now and through out it's history, but it was still male dominant and women were suppose to play a certain role in society. In Mesopotamia women were meant to go from being good daughters to being wives, mothers and housekeepers. You really don't think people would demonize or slander someone who went against the very thing society was teaching to try and keep women from doing the same thing? We see similar things happen even today to women who are considered "free spirited" and do whatever they want, just look at an tabloid and you can see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoseKitten View Post
    Your comment about God is irrelevant in this thread, by the way.
    No it's not. It's a correlation of how one thing was perceived and how in time it changed to the opposite by the means of what people wanted it be to serve the purpose they had in mind.


    As for any god/dess being responsible for disease, it could be any of them or not at all. It could just be science in general, as how we evolved so did everything else and disease and bacteria are no different. It's just in that time period no one knew of how a single cell organism could evolve or how you can actually create diseases and bacteria, so someone else had to be the cause of it. Someone had to be the scapegoat cause why would it happen unless it was someone bad who didn't like us, which leads more to why a being/deity would be created or changed to serve a purpose of explaining such things.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseKitten View Post
    Who says she isn't the one behind the germs and diseases. It was commonly thought through Sumer that demons of various sorts were responsible for diseases. Just because since pinpoint the "real" stuff behind it, doesn't change that belief. If since proves that there's a specific mechanism behind how magic works, would that change the fact that it works?
    Right, like if I do a spell for money, whether I gain money by getting a raise, receiving it as a gift or finding it, I consider my spell a success. Those are the mechanics of spellwork and of the spirit world, so why change the rules here?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kagekarasu View Post
    It can said society demonized her, as most of the myths surrounding her have to do with two things mostly, her being something similar to a succubus and eating babies. Now yes, the eating babies is bad, but I can also see that stemming from her sexual behaviors and angry wives blaming her for either their husbands unfaithfulness plus them having a miscarriage, which for hundreds of years was said you could have one by your husband sleeping with someone else, especially something demonic.

    Like I said, society could have very well demonized Lilith due to her acts and revolting against the way she was suppose to act in society... You really don't think people would demonize or slander someone who went against the very thing society was teaching to try and keep women from doing the same thing? We see similar things happen even today to women who are considered "free spirited" and do whatever they want, just look at an tabloid and you can see that... Someone had to be the scapegoat cause why would it happen unless it was someone bad who didn't like us, which leads more to why a being/deity would be created or changed to serve a purpose of explaining such things.
    If their society was so rigid about women who are free-spirited and that caused them to demonize Lilith, why did they worship Inanna? She was a 'bad girl' when it came to her relationships with males; all her lovers, even Gods died when she was done with them. If your estimation of Sumerian society is correct, she definitely should have been demonized! What sexual behavior would people think worse of, having many lovers or having many lovers and leaving them all dead?

    I don't think you can pick and choose when you want to take myths at face value and when you want to debunk them. Either they hold truth, maybe not completely literal, or they don't, but to say Lilith was demonized by jealous Sumerian women because of her nightly escapades when there is a strong, very sexually-liberated Goddess in the Sumerian pantheon defies logic.

    Maybe Lilith actually was 'bad' and didn't like people, and therefore wasn't a scapegoat, but an evil (as humans understand it) spirit.

    I think you noticed the mystery in the relationship between Inanna and Lilith. At first Inanna was plagued by Lilith (Gilgamesh Epic) and then used the apparent demon as her gopher, becoming the Hand of Inanna. Hmmmm.

    And about women being slandered in tabloids today? You're right, and we're still living in a primarily monotheistic society with a male God and deep roots in puritanism.
    Last edited by Circe; July 9th, 2010 at 09:02 PM.

  4. #14
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    Hi Circe,

    Lilith is also Dark Mistress of VOID,female archetype to be exact.

    VOID being the vast untapped reservoir of the Great Unmanifest,simply the subatomic level which unites us all as we are all attached to this & rely upon it,as do all things.(eh,can illustrate this if you like)

    Is your african thing a relative of JUH-JUH?

    Sounds very authentic.

    Great love,

    TBE.

    HAIL LILITH!

    HEIL VOID!

    Circe is kinda Italian Templar are far as I know,who did they rip it off from?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Elf View Post
    Lilith is also Dark Mistress of VOID,female archetype to be exact.

    VOID being the vast untapped reservoir of the Great Unmanifest,simply the subatomic level which unites us all as we are all attached to this & rely upon it,as do all things.(eh,can illustrate this if you like)
    What you're explaining reminds me very much like a branch of Shaktism that venerates Kali. In one Kalikula text, the Mahanirvana-tantra, Shiva is quoted praising her:

    "At the dissolution of things, it is Kala [Time] Who will devour all, and by reason of this He is called Mahakala [an epithet of Lord Shiva], and since Thou devourest Mahakala Himself, it is Thou who art the Supreme Primordial Kalika. Because Thou devourest Kala, Thou art Kali, the original form of all things, and because Thou art the Origin of and devourest all things Thou art called the Adya [primordial Kali]. Resuming after Dissolution Thine own form, dark and formless, Thou alone remainest as One ineffable and inconceivable. Though having a form, yet art Thou formless; though Thyself without beginning, multiform by the power of Maya, Thou art the Beginning of all, Creatrix, Protectress, and Destructress that Thou art."

    (To be clear, I'm not equating Kali-Ma with Lilith.)

    Is your african thing a relative of JUH-JUH?

    Sounds very authentic.
    Sounds very... sarcastic. There's a lot western pagans could learn about working with spirits from the Hindu tradition, all the aboriginal and native traditions, the shamanic traditions, and especially the African traditions. Some of the ATR's have unbroken lineages of initiation and priesthood extending before any written record. While some familial lines survived in Europe, most neopagans are in the dark ages compared the knowledge preserved by these other cultures.

    Circe is kinda Italian Templar are far as I know,who did they rip it off from
    Circe is kinda Italian Templar? Alright then...
    Last edited by Circe; July 17th, 2010 at 02:37 AM.
    Avatar is Patricia Ariel's 'The Mirror'

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    If their society was so rigid about women who are free-spirited and that caused them to demonize Lilith, why did they worship Inanna? She was a 'bad girl' when it came to her relationships with males; all her lovers, even Gods died when she was done with them. If your estimation of Sumerian society is correct, she definitely should have been demonized! What sexual behavior would people think worse of, having many lovers or having many lovers and leaving them all dead?

    I don't think you can pick and choose when you want to take myths at face value and when you want to debunk them. Either they hold truth, maybe not completely literal, or they don't, but to say Lilith was demonized by jealous Sumerian women because of her nightly escapades when there is a strong, very sexually-liberated Goddess in the Sumerian pantheon defies logic.

    Maybe Lilith actually was 'bad' and didn't like people, and therefore wasn't a scapegoat, but an evil (as humans understand it) spirit.

    I think you noticed the mystery in the relationship between Inanna and Lilith. At first Inanna was plagued by Lilith (Gilgamesh Epic) and then used the apparent demon as her gopher, becoming the Hand of Inanna. Hmmmm.

    And about women being slandered in tabloids today? You're right, and we're still living in a primarily monotheistic society with a male God and deep roots in puritanism.
    This is a very thought provoking discussion! When I first read the thread I was of the opinion that yes Lilith was unfairly demonised by a patriarchal society. It's a common trend I find with some Neo-pagans who 'rescue' female mythological figures who were scorned and feared by ancient people, and reinterpret them as strong independent females unfairly condemned by males. It's become almost a knee jerk response to resist any categorising of a dark female deity as evil. Now this debate has jolted me out of that line of thinking.

    Why can't Lilith be evil? Why can't she be a jealous spiteful seeker of harm? These women certainly existed and still exist today.

    In my opinion though Kagekarasu isn't entirely wrong. I think part of Lilith's nature has been misunderstood, but part of her still remains dangerous (maybe because she feels misundertood) and that you shouldn't let your guard down when working with her.

    But you already know that. So back to your original concern...She's shown that she cares enough about you to help you get back on your feet. You might want to tell her however that part of what makes you happy are your friends, male or female, and all the other energies you work with. They are part of your recovery just as much as she is. Maybe she needs more reassurance and meal sharing to know that she is valued by you as much as anyone else.
    Last edited by Avanti; July 16th, 2010 at 10:19 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avanti View Post
    This is a very thought provoking discussion! When I first read the thread I was of the opinion that yes Lilith was unfairly demonised by a patriarchal society. It's a common trend I find with some Neo-pagans who 'rescue' female mythological figures who were scorned and feared by ancient people, and reinterpret them as strong independent females unfairly condemned by males. It's become almost a knee jerk response to resist any categorising of a dark female deity as evil. Now this debate has jolted me out of that line of thinking.

    Why can't Lilith be evil? Why can't she be a jealous spiteful seeker of harm? These women certainly existed and still exist today.

    In my opinion though Kagekarasu isn't entirely wrong. I think part of Lilith's nature has been misunderstood, but part of her still remains dangerous (maybe because she feels misundertood) and that you shouldn't let your guard down when working with her.

    But you already know that. So back to your original concern...She's shown that she cares enough about you to help you get back on your feet. You might want to tell her however that part of what makes you happy are your friends, male or female, and all the other energies you work with. They are part of your recovery just as much as she is. Maybe she needs more reassurance and meal sharing to know that she is valued by you as much as anyone else.


    Bolding mine.

    I think the sentence I bolded might be as important in a relationship with any god, goddess or spirit as it is with any family member, friend, or SO.

    I also agree with the rest of the paragraph.

    As for the rest of this discussion and the other one in Gods and Goddess, I am still thinking about it all.

    Glo
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    What am I doing? Whatever I choose.

    Why am I doing it? Because I want to.

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    What you're explaining reminds me very much like a branch of Shaktism that venerates Kali. In one Kalikula text, the Mahanirvana-tantra, Shiva is quoted praising her:

    "At the dissolution of things, it is Kala [Time] Who will devour all, and by reason of this He is called Mahakala [an epithet of Lord Shiva], and since Thou devourest Mahakala Himself, it is Thou who art the Supreme Primordial Kalika. Because Thou devourest Kala, Thou art Kali, the original form of all things, and because Thou art the Origin of and devourest all things Thou art called the Adya [primordial Kali]. Resuming after Dissolution Thine own form, dark and formless, Thou alone remainest as One ineffable and inconceivable. Though having a form, yet art Thou formless; though Thyself without beginning, multiform by the power of Maya, Thou art the Beginning of all, Creatrix, Protectress, and Destructress that Thou art."

    (To be clear, I'm not equating Kali-Ma with Lilith.)





    ..
    Sorry for the delay in getting back to such a fine post.I have found in my astral that MA KALI comes in many forms,some you may expect & others you may not......Only twice has Kali ma appeared to me as my *equal* once as healer when I was working at the Temple of Anubis(long story),once when I was sent out into VOID by Ma Durgha(glorious ma!) with Kali at my side for many bloodless victories,the destroyer Kali,after we left the Temple of Trayastan.

    On both of these occasions Kali had her more classic form.

    Other times (the dark force that is)she appears in different forms.If I am ever powerless & have to give myself over to her protection........eh,this has to do with my heart chakra opening & her being akin to *the great architect of the universe*...MA-SONIC(mother light) ceremony dovetails so beautifully with this.

    I have been bitten & devoured many times by *her*

    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post

    Sounds very... sarcastic. There's a lot western pagans could learn about working with spirits from the Hindu tradition, all the aboriginal and native traditions, the shamanic traditions, and especially the African traditions. Some of the ATR's have unbroken lineages of initiation and priesthood extending before any written record. While some familial lines survived in Europe, most neopagans are in the dark ages compared the knowledge preserved by these other cultures.
    ..
    No sarcasm intended Circe,As I am VOIDIAN template archetype soul I have searched for the watermark in each belief system *young & old*(all is current or eternal)....I love the way divine forces are labelled by different cultures,only the names & language change as they develope & are ever developing as they shall ever develope....

    Lilith as female principal of VOID dovetails with the Fae & with kaballah,If you like you could think of her as a close relative of MA Kali & even lady Sehkmet........Similarly Anubis has a brother/close relative Shiva when you get out of the black & into the blue.

    I am obliged to you for your response & great labels.Templars of Circe(Kirk) are nicely explained in the link I sent you by pm.a Team Pull is the origin of Temple,team pullers are way more ancient that the dickhead illuminati who were *disbanded* 1306 lolz.

    all the best,

    TBE
    Last edited by The Black Elf; August 14th, 2010 at 12:42 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by David19 View Post
    Interesting perspective, and actually, I quite like that. It reminds me of something I read on a Jewish forum, about demonology, one Jew said, what people called demons, we now call viruses and bacteria - things we can't see, but, cause harm, or, in other cases (in Judaism, there are good demons, as well as evil). I think I actually do like that view. Maybe it is Lilith who's responsible for cot deaths, there might be a specific cause for it that science has discovered, but, she could still be what causes it.



    Very true, in some respects, women had it better than they do now in Iraq, and other parts of the Middle East.
    What an interesting thread, my understanding in Kabbalah is that there is nothing that does not emanate from the Creative force, which is always in the processing of bestowing or creating, so the perception of good and evil lies not with the entities but how we perceive their impact on our lives and desires.
    If we, and we all act to fulfill our desires, see them as a block, then we see them as evil. But they, like all that is associated with the two towers of energy that either give or take away, are essential to us forming a zone of balance, the Middle Path.
    The word demon was I understand a product of the Church, up until then, it was daemon. Thanks for all the fantastic references and perspectives...

    In biodynamics, viruses were also seen as belonging to a higher order, which is why, the last thing we should be doing, is genetically manipulating them in the ignorant believe we are doing the manipulation. Ie the herpes virus being used as a viral vector in crops....

    Yticilef

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yticilef View Post
    What an interesting thread, my understanding in Kabbalah is that there is nothing that does not emanate from the Creative force, which is always in the processing of bestowing or creating, so the perception of good and evil lies not with the entities but how we perceive their impact on our lives and desires.
    That's it in one.

    To explain it Qabalistically using the Tree, and with Malkuth as the example:

    Malkuth and Lilith (the Qliphothic sphere, not the Demon Goddess Queen. The Qliphothic sphere "Lilith" is ruled by her daughter) are one and the same. Malkuth is the world full of the light of the Ain Soph Aur, and Lilith is the same world separated from the light.

    The only contention I'd have is that dividing it into "good" and "evil" denies the inherent monism of QBL. Lilith (the sphere) and Na'amah (the ruling demon) are no more "evil" than Malkuth and Malkah. The fundamental difference is more of Dionysian or Apollonian existence, and while Apollonian thought has some advantages in the office, the best parties have the underlying Dionysian chaos. To the pure, all things are pure.
    Sidhe

    If I wanted your opinion, I'd read it in your entrails.


    My astral realmz; let me show you them.

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