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Thread: Discussing science from a religious standpoint...

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    .
    Religion is always trying to insert itself into, ...science.
    Your referring to creationists?
    Anyway, ofc religion inserts into science, always done, always will, should not even quit doing it.
    Anyway please give a really good definition on what religion is in your worldview related to this context, or a forever long misunderstanding will corrupt this thread.
    I can say that in my environment science has everything to say about religion, in fact, only science may have a say about religion. Religion has almost nothing to say about religion nor science in my world. (In the world of the university)
    Maybe your hanging out to much with thunderfoot's foes and with fundies?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladeflower View Post
    Your referring to creationists?
    Anyway, ofc religion inserts into science, always done, always will, should not even quit doing it.
    Anyway please give a really good definition on what religion is in your worldview related to this context, or a forever long misunderstanding will corrupt this thread.
    I can say that in my environment science has everything to say about religion, in fact, only science may have a say about religion. Religion has almost nothing to say about religion nor science in my world. (In the world of the university)
    Maybe your hanging out to much with thunderfoot's foes and with fundies?
    Religion as in an established group with shared dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view... etc.

    As for TF, I couldn't care less about him. I don't even watch his videos, but seeing as the only board I spend time on except for LoR is this one. Well... you said it, not me.
    Last edited by Aeon Flux; February 7th, 2011 at 07:50 PM.
    Previously known as Njorun Alma


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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    established group with shared dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.
    Sounds like something we should preserve and welcome.
    What would science do without these.
    Technology is only useful when we apply it together in society with points like this.
    Should not societies be a hand which molds(with these points) what science focus on/will do?
    Last edited by SacredNight; February 7th, 2011 at 09:01 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladeflower View Post
    Sounds like something we should preserve and welcome.
    What would science do without these.
    Technology is only useful when we apply it together in society with points like this.
    Should not societies be a hand which molds(with these points) what science focus on/will do?
    We, as a global community should not deal with shared believes or dogma. It's not healthy. The world is built on many different people with many different philosophies. Everybody in a country or the world holding the same dogma and believes would mean a theocracy, and I am not willing to preserve or welcome that. Quite the opposite, I openly oppose theocracies. They breed ignorance and intolerance. Or would you be okay with living in a Christian theocracy? Because that would, according to your reasoning, be something we should preserve and welcome.

    What would science do without dogma and believes? A lot more than it already does. We would have been hundreds of years further into scientific discoveries if dogma, believes and christian world view would not have been allowed to take over during the dark ages.

    Are you saying that the internet is only useful when we all have a shared belief, dogma, morals, laws and world views without dissent? Then surely some countries use of the internet with extreme censorship is more useful than what we're doing?

    And no, societies should not dictate what science should or should not focus on. Some societies would not have wanted science and medicine to create birth control pills.
    Some societies would not have us spread information in this matter over the internet.

    Society is a number of people living together as a community. Do you think that everybody in this community share the same morals, the same dogma, the same beliefs and the same laws?
    We don't. Some eat meat, some don't. Some believe in gods, some don't. Some have the death penalty in their countries, some don't.

    Technology is used globally, without the whole world sharing the same beliefs, dogma, laws, morals, world views, culture... Not even all Swedes share the same believes, dogma, morals world views... the only thing they have in common is agreeing to live under Swedish law. If that doesn't suit you, then you can move out of the country.
    Previously known as Njorun Alma


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  5. #15
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    I recommend this book
    And paper like this
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    We, as a global community should not deal with shared believes or dogma. It's not healthy.
    As a global community we share believes and dogma, and it is healthy
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Everybody in a country or the world holding the same dogma and believes would mean a theocracy,
    We already stated that there are many groups, both you and me.
    We dont have to go to this hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post

    They breed ignorance and intolerance.
    Theocrats. . . maybe, dont know how many there are.
    But what is the point? Do we talk about theocrates? I dont know, I dont, I talk about religion.
    To share believes and values dont bring intolerance and ignorance per se

    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Or would you be okay with living in a Christian theocracy?
    We dont talk about christianity, nor a theocracy.
    We are going by the points you gave earlier.
    -.-
    We can end questions like that
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Because that would, according to your reasoning, be something we should preserve and welcome.
    Values, yes. And you got a shit load of them :D
    And you have a very firm view of how things should be,
    And I guess your quite frustrated with the fact it is not like how you want it to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    What would science do without dogma and believes?
    A lot more than it already does.
    There are only dogmas and believes.
    Even by science, read about philosophy and science and it will be clear that science nor scientists master self distance or objectivity, not should they.
    And those who use that which scientists provide us with work also with dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view as their preference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    We would have been hundreds of years further into scientific discoveries if dogma, believes and christian world view would not have been allowed to take over during the dark ages.
    Have heard that a gazillion times, and I hold the same frustrated thoughts when I was younger.
    But so what.
    Do you want progress in specific fields just for its own sake?
    We all could just sit in mountains and meditate all day long, so what if everything else comes to an halt. It takes some dogma to insist otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Are you saying that the internet is only useful when we all have. . . belief, dogma, morals, laws and world views . . .?
    I cut your sentence a little, so it matches what we are talking about in my regard.
    And my answer is Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    And no, societies should not dictate what science should or should not focus on.
    :O
    Societies use science to work to ends.
    Science is used to make visions come true.
    If you think values should not be in the laboratory, or in the scientist, then why are they even there to begin with.
    It takes loads upon LOADS of values and beliefs to put money and energy and people and education to do science. And after science is done, it is worthless if it is not applied practically or applied for further research. And both takes load upon loads of visions, which in it self encompasses values and beliefs, morals and world views. And base-values which comes in forms of dogmas.
    Even the thought that we should prohibit death or diseases is base-values, its nothing which can be proven or comes in form of facts. Its super strict values, dogmas and beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Some societies would not have wanted science and medicine to create birth control pills.
    Some do, because they are also a established group with shared dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Some societies would not have us spread information in this matter over the internet.
    Some do, because they are also a established group with shared dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Do you think that everybody in this community share the same morals, the same dogma, the same beliefs and the same laws?
    no, because there are different established groups with shared dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Some eat meat, some don't. Some believe in gods, some don't. Some have the death penalty in their countries, some don't.
    yeaa
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Technology is used globally, without the whole world
    sharing the same beliefs, dogma, laws, morals, world views, culture...
    Exactly, because thay are established group with shared dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    Not even all Swedes share the same believes, dogma, morals world views...
    So we both agree on that they actually have believes, dogma, morals world views... Good.
    Same things you said were the definition of religion. Now are applied to nations.
    And we are going strong on that now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Njorun Alma View Post
    the only thing they have in common is agreeing to live under Swedish law.
    If that doesn't suit you, then you can move out of the country.
    Leaving and unsubscribe to all authorities here is almost impossible, I cant, even if I do I will end up in a country somehow, and I have to share their dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.
    I will, and its not a matter of democracy, dictatorship, theocracies or whatever, as long as there are humans there I will have to share dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view. Humans are a religious creature. We interact, and why stop religion(in your def still) to enter other fields, like science.

    IMPORTANT
    Science is in the same boat as everything else.
    Science imports values, and export values.
    And how can any technology be used if not with values, morals, believes and world view?
    How can any technology or scientific progress be used if not applied with values, morals, believes and world view??
    Technology in use is working towards something, we rigged the machine or whatever cause of our worldview, and dogma etc..
    And that requires values, morals, believes and world view!

    And if you are frustrated about others world view, cause its obviously not good that their view is mixed up with certain fields, and that they should stay out of certain fields in our society cause they obviously insert things that should not be there. And if you take stuff to literally, maybe you are that which you are trying to fight here.

    You not only have dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view. but these also shine so bright from you that it brightens my whole room. And so does mine.

    It is philosophy which determines what biology will encompass, what chemistry will encompass and what physics will encompass
    Its humans who invented the stuff after all, and things that characterizes humans are dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view.. And science is full of these utterly humans things. And humans is a religious animal.

    I just said we should welcome dogmas, believes, morals, laws, world view. As democracies do. And what science has done, and do, and will do. But read the book and the paper, and we maybe will understand each other. Maybe its a matter of terminology. But still, I dont think science have less values and dogmas and beliefs then catholicism.
    Last edited by SacredNight; February 8th, 2011 at 10:30 AM.

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