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Thread: Why are there so many paths in paganism?

  1. #31
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    More Links-

    Elegba in the Yoruba Religion

    Followed by;

    History of the Yoruba People

    The African peoples who lived in the lower western Niger area, at least by the 4th century BC, were not initially known as the Yoruba, although they shared a common ethnicity and language group. Both archeology and traditional Yoruba oral historians confirm the existence of people in this region for several millennia.
    Between 1100 AD and 1700 AD, the Yoruba Kingdom of Ife experienced a golden age, the oba or ruler of Ife is referred to as the Ooni of Ife.[10] It was then surpassed by the Yoruba Oyo Empire as the dominant Yoruba military and political power between 1700 AD and 1900 AD,[11] the oba or ruler of Oyo is referred to as the Alaafin of Oyo. Ife, however, remained and continues to be viewed as the spiritual homeland of the Yoruba. The nearby Benin Empire with its capital in the city of Benin, which is also in modern day Nigeria, was an equally powerful force between 1300 and 1850 AD, its ruler being referred to as the Oba of Benin.[12]




    Now I can understand being like "who influence who" as far as the etymology of the deities name. Especially once you consider that Benin, itself, is formed of different groups of people- and had been so when they originally mifrated closer to the southern groups. While it's simple to see how "Legba" could be taken out of "Elegba" (Maybe not for you, but it is for me and I don't mean that as insult, I'm just saying what I see).

    I would also suggest you speak with actual AFRICAN practitioners of their traditional religions as you will find that they have complete pantheons, of which Legba is part of; hell I found a link where black Africans speak, shortly,but candidly, on what Legba means to them and Africa.

    For the life of me I cannot understand why you're having such a hard time with this.

    Fact: Legba (Elegba) existed BEFORE Christian (read European) intervention.
    Fact: Voudou, the religion, has it's roots in AFRICA.
    Fact: Voudou, the religion, has been transplanted to other areas where slaves were trafficked.
    Fact: Syncretism did occur in these areas where Catholicism was placed above the traditional religion.
    Fact: Hence Catholic equivalents for Legba, without the deity of Legba himself being replaced.
    Fact: You can still talk to actual Africans (They still exist you know) who can attest to their pantheons and how they differ from the Haitian religious sect)

  2. #32
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    How can I forget!? I should probably connect the dots to make this a little easier.




    Take a look at where a good portion of where Transatlantic slaves came from.

    Benin and West Central Africa the area comprising not only Benin, but Togo and Nigeria as well. It makes total sense that the Indigenous African religions of these areas would morph into the Afro-Caribbean religions of today.

    I'll provide a map for you;



    Further more;

    From "How Stuff Works" not a most credible source but it pretty much restates other links and information I have given you;

    "This African form of Voodoo is a precursor to the Voodoo practiced in Haiti and other parts of the Western hemisphere. The regions of Africa where Voodoo has thrived are also areas that were heavily trafficked during the slave trade. Slavery brought Voodoo to the Americas. Next, we'll look at the changes to Voodoo that took place on the other side of the Atlantic."

    And this tidbit is interesting;

    "Voodoo originated in the African kingdoms of Fon and Kongo as many as 6,000 years ago. The word "voodoo" comes from the Fon language, in which it means "sacred," "spirit" or "deity."

    If you read any of the sources I've linked, a few of them will mention how these traditions are mainly ORAL, so the names of deities, their governance, and ways of worship shift with each clan- BUT Legba, in all of his forms (and different names) plays an integral part in many West African religious sects and has done so since before the slave trade that brought these religious beliefs into contact with forced conversion.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscordianKitten View Post
    The answer is fairly obvious to me. There's no Bible in Paganism.
    THANK YOU!!!
    "I put a capital N on nature and call it my church."

    -Frank Lloyd Wright

  4. #34
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    Good kitten.
    This will be a good signature one day

  5. #35
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    Sounds like almost no one even agree on that paganism is more decentralized then other.

    I still haven't seen anyone problematize that paganism may fill other functions as an identity then these big religions which have many functions in the social life, they are THE culture, the base which aint questioned. And many just have that christian/chatolic label and go along with it, if they did formulate specific creeds then many functions of what religion do for them would vanish.
    Last edited by SacredNight; March 10th, 2011 at 06:13 AM.
    This will be a good signature one day

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladeflower View Post
    Good kitten.
    Purr purr

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  7. #37
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    Now I can understand being like "who influence who" as far as the etymology of the deities name. Especially once you consider that Benin, itself, is formed of different groups of people- and had been so when they originally mifrated closer to the southern groups. While it's simple to see how "Legba" could be taken out of "Elegba" (Maybe not for you, but it is for me and I don't mean that as insult, I'm just saying what I see).
    Never said it wasn't drawing from pre-Christian traditions. In fact, I've said that it did the entire time, despite your claims otherwise.

    But, the specific name "Legba" is only used where there happened to be Catholics. Where the region was mainly Protestant, other names were used. Now, I suppose it's entirely possible that that's just an amazing coincidence, but I doubt it.

    There were also many religions in that region of Africa before Christianity came. Think about why this one set of beliefs and traditions survived, while the others disappeared. It being centered on a single Creator God, with Sprits that coresponded nicely with Angels and Saints, made it compatable with Christianity, especially Catholicism. So, it became a part of the Folk Christian practices, there, it's practitioners considering themselves Christian.

    And yes, it went through changes in the process. That's how religions develop. Always have, always will. When there are major cultural changes, the local religion changes with them. That's why no one, today, can be a "pure" this or that, because we don't live in those ancient cultures. Anywhere Christianity took hold, local traditions became incorporated, but have come to us, today, through centuries of filtering through Christianity. In places where the locals weren't introduced to writing before Christianity, we really can't know what the religion was before being put through a Christian filter. We can guess at some aspects based on what distinguishes the local practices from others, but we'll never know exactly what they were.

    It's the same with the Druids. What we know of them is based on the hostile Roman Pagan accounts (which painted them as bloodthirsty savages who were entirely about war and himan sacrifice), the sympathetic Christian accounts (which focused on the Nature aspects and spirituality, while acknowledging the human sacrifices), and what survived into Celtic Christianity (which was quite a bit, including the Mythology, but, again, with a Christian filter).

    The only pre-Christian religions in the West we can be certain about are the ones that wrote things down.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    I agree.

    I was just clarifying where Perceval had misquoted to make it sound like that was my claim.

    To restate:
    Unbroken chain = indiginous tribal shamanism in places like the amazon and australia
    Paganism = any religion outside of Christianity/Judaism/Islam
    Therefore Wiccans are pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan

    The last statement is where perceval and I are in disagreement. He claims all Pagans are Wiccan.

    All is clear?
    For most coming TO pagan thought from other traditions Wicca plays a huge role. it's sort of the catch all where people start out until they know enough to start looking for a path. It's sort of the womb of paganism. Which means that when people start to branch out a bit, they form new Wiccas and perhaps later new Druidisms etc. to better express what they understand. Nothing in Europe (including Iceland) came comepletely without a Christian Filter, just like nothing in the Middle East exists without a Muslim Filter.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscordianKitten View Post
    The answer is fairly obvious to me. There's no Bible in Paganism.
    I disagree. There's at least 1 witches' bible, and there's a satanic bible... maybe more.
    Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
    Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

    I run the @anonywicks accounts on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. Pagans present!

  10. #40
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    re: Why are there so many paths in paganism?

    Because we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by perceval23 View Post
    Most Neo-Pagan Paths are heavily influenced by Wicca, regardless of what they call themselves.
    Mine is one of the few that isn't.
    Xentor, your friendly-neighbourhood Checkerist
    Contact me | The Dialogues on Checkerism

    I run the @anonywicks accounts on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. Pagans present!

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