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Thread: Why does the 1% of Witches not read witch or folk lore?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet Soul30 View Post
    I'm talking about those outside of the Alexanderian tradition. Of course I don't know that much about that type of tradition. Those that don't think it's important to read those dusty, boring, books. The majority do and we can be thankful.
    You've got a broad stroke there again. Many Garderniarns (sp) I've spoken to have nearly the same requirements as the Alexanderian's. Well what they could or would say about it as I am not initiated into any of those pathways. The critical facet here being those that are lineaged versus those that are not is where I see the major change in requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
    You've got a broad stroke there again. Many Garderniarns (sp) I've spoken to have nearly the same requirements as the Alexanderian's. Well what they could or would say about it as I am not initiated into any of those pathways. The critical facet here being those that are lineaged versus those that are not is where I see the major change in requirements.
    Sorry, my mind isn't narrow though my writing is. Also having gas from eating spicy foods don't help.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet Soul30 View Post
    Sorry, my mind isn't narrow though my writing is. Also having gas from eating spicy foods don't help.
    Oh that's bad you should never give a retired sailor an opening like that. Gas, Mind & pressure to many possibilites opening on that one. And they say a man's brain moves about the body he he he

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
    What's nice though is that it occurs less and less now than it did years ago. I usually make them mad though and tell them i'd be glad to have them there with me as they are breaking their own beliefs.



    Ah careful there. Chickens are part of the winged peoples of the planet. As such they deserve respect and honoring as much as a human. From a shamanic perspective and Hedgewitchary perspective animal husbandry is a core tennent. Most times its not about not harming its about thanking them for their sacrifice and not inflicting un-necessary pain in their demise.



    That is a red flad to me. People are born into hereditary lines but no one is a hereditary witch. Perhaps more prone to following that pathway or being called to it but in no way born with it. That's actually more of the eliticism that was rampant during many of the so called witch wars of who was more witchy.

    One might equate it to the driving force in the Harry Potter films of "Purebloods" and "Muggles" though they tend to forget about the "Squibs".



    Your showing a narrow scope again. Cursing and evil eye is really common in things like Stregia. Folk traditions and many types of granny magics also recognize and use curses. Heathenism in some ways also speaks of curses when appropriate. So Pagan's being mad is a relatively narrow guage.



    A BOS and a Grimoire are different though I think the difference is more to be found in ceremonial magics than common Pagan practices. What one might identify as high magics versus the low magics many pagans practice. It's like the usage of the word tome's to describe a singular volume in a larger collection of material. Some practices would refer to the Solomonic works as Grimoires (contains magical workings) yet the entire collection of works as magical tome's when refering to each individual volume, ie greater keys, lessor keys, etc.



    Thats a very opinionated statement that can't be backed up. I ifreely admit a lot of early works i've read are or were like pulling teeth. It hurt to get through them as the subject was so poorly written on, the author was very much uninformed of the material being presented. It was presented in the typical your going to hell for doing this.

    That and lots of it is allegorical in nature so one has to do more than just read to understand the scope and depth of the material and the people. Many groups using story or fable format to convey the meaning of ethics, reasons, usage, etc.

    It's like some read the story of Iphigenia who is sacrificed to Artemis but don't get the full depths of it. Pride, vanity, revenge are surface aspects of it but the deeper positions of women in the society are not so easy to grasp. yet the story is dry in many ways, especially given that the outcome changes somewhat depending upon who is telling it and when.



    Part of the problem here though is that much of what is recorded is actually urban legend. And like urban legends of today much of it has no root in truth or realility, simply stories made up. It's the Crybaby bridge of its day.

    It's like the nursery rhyme "Ring around the Rosies" many teach it to their children but the actuall rhyme simply serves to recall and understand the black plague period. A ring that was formed around a red wound. Pockets full of possies to hide or mask the stench of death. Ashes, ashes we all fall down about the burning of bodies and how all would eventually fall down.

    Over the years I've spoken to many practioners that had a list of books or volumes they had to read for thier particular practices. Seldom did you find more than one or two that acutally crossed over.

    Heathens reading the eddas and saga's but seldom reading the material from the mediterrian basin. Gilgamesh on some lists but not others. Yet each driven and suggested to enhance and guide particular pathways. Sort of like the Volsung saga, two versions known of it with two different hero sets yet the story is the same.



    Here you appear to be speaking about the difference between curses, hexes, evil eye, etc. Curses are not just a one size scenario but are broken down into levels and degree's.



    I do think you've got the Wiccan notion of rule of three messed up with the shake and bake version of it. Most traditional Wiccans I knew would tell you it meant that every action would come back upon you in up to three ways, physcially, emotionally or spiritually, or any combo of those three. It was never about something coming back x three in strength.

    For instance you steal something. The return is potentially to go to jail when caught which is physical. The mental anguish upon self if you have any morale or ethical values. the spiritual tarnishing of having your beliefs and practices inpaired as the other two influences cause you hardship and loss of ability to do things.
    On your first comment: True, but there still out there.

    On your second comment:I don't know anything about animal husbandry or Hedgewitch path, though I'm learning, but what I meant was that the chickens aren't tortured in any way and the animal people still made a big deal. Those wonderful people had to go to court to fight for their right to sacrifice animals as part of their religion.

    On your third comment: Actually the gentleman knows a great deal about the Cornish path and about the history of the land of Cornwall. Also I know that you can be born into it and he wasn't coming along as someone that thought he was better than everyone else. I like what he has to say including about Sea Witchery and Weather Witchery.

    On your forth comment: That sucks, even the Weasley's practiced this form of bigotry, believing that they were better than everyone else because they had magic. The whole book series was a ball of hatred, bigotry, and just plain nonsense. While Rowling was a good author she made Harry out as though what happened to him didn't change him, turn him into a violent child or someone that had mental problems.

    On your fifth comment: Just telling you what I experienced.

    On your sixth comment: The gentlemen said that Gardner had called it the Wiccans Grimoire before retracting it and just saying that it was a Wiccans Book of Shadows. He said that it had everything to do with Hitler, which I think that I might of pointed out, and that Gardner didn't want anything to do with scum like that. Personally Hitler was very big on the Occult and I find it not hard to believe that he would have several prized volumes. Where they are, no one knows.

    On your seventh and eighth comment: The book that I'm reading doesn't have any of that, it's just a collection of folklore and its connection to witches. Not the whole 'if you do this then your going to hell.'

    On your ninth comment: I haven't read that one, thanks for telling me.

    On your tenth comment: I'm checking out a book about Urban legends. I'm really interested in knowing how the whole gators in the sewer system got started.

    On your eleventh comment: I've actually done the ring around the rosie rhyme and, at the time, I didn't know that it was about the Black Death. Though now I know.

    On your twelfth comment: I didn't know that, thanks for telling me.

    On your thirteenth comment: I've read them and I can understand the pride that Heathens feel. I was very happy to get a chance to read them.

    On your forteenth comment: Someone told me as much. Of course some witches, like Laura Cabot, is clearly against the Evil Eye. I've done the evil eye, without realizing it, before. It does work and not because I believe that it did. Of course I might be wrong there.

    On your fifteenth comment: I didn't know that. All the books on Wicca that I've read never mentioned that. It clearly stated that it comes back to you three times as strong. I'll write down what you said about that in my book.

    On your last comment: I've not experienced that, though I might of gotten what you said wrong.

  5. #35
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    Sekhmet Soul30 wrote: On your second comment:I don't know anything about animal husbandry or Hedgewitch path, though I'm learning, but what I meant was that the chickens aren't tortured in any way and the animal people still made a big deal. Those wonderful people had to go to court to fight for their right to sacrifice animals as part of their religion.
    Animal Husbandry is part of it but I think many times lost to the new age influnce of "Healing" being the role of shamanic practioners.

    Animal sacrifice is still a touchy subject for many. I have no problem with the actual practice just as long as its done with honor and reverence for the creature.

    On your third comment: Actually the gentleman knows a great deal about the Cornish path and about the history of the land of Cornwall. Also I know that you can be born into it and he wasn't coming along as someone that thought he was better than everyone else. I like what he has to say including about Sea Witchery and Weather Witchery.
    Many are born within it or from it but I know of no line that claims they were born of it. That's one of those sticking issues for many trads and such.

    Sea witchery (green & brown water) is another really broad subject. It's like the widow walk ladies of the Northeast US and the spells and weather magics they practiced. Greatly different than say what was done over the great lakes or blue water sailors.

    For the record green water is usually coastal in nature, brown water is usually rivers and inland lakes and waterways, blue water the deep oceans. I spent 23 years in the Navy so have seen some of that on all types.

    But yes, to whistle up a storm now that's a horse of a different color.

    Weather magics come in a great many forms as well. Everything form the typical rain dance.

    (will finsh up when I get back have to run over mountains to get niece)

    edited to add link:

    Here's a link where we discussed the topic of sea magics

    http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.ph...ean+witchcraft
    Last edited by monsnoleedra; April 2nd, 2011 at 03:24 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
    (will finsh up when I get back have to run over mountains to get niece)
    i can hardly wait. this is very interesting.
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  7. #37
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    Sekhmet Soul30 wrote: .. On your forth comment: That sucks, even the Weasley's practiced this form of bigotry, believing that they were better than everyone else because they had magic. The whole book series was a ball of hatred, bigotry, and just plain nonsense. While Rowling was a good author she made Harry out as though what happened to him didn't change him, turn him into a violent child or someone that had mental problems.
    The sad part is that it is a position one see's in a lot of pagan type forums. Especially the usage of the word "Muggle" in a negative that is almost equal to the "Mundane" caveot that was going for a bit.

    On your fifth comment: Just telling you what I experienced.
    Oh I understand or understood that. It's just that many today base thier positions upon what they encounter on the net. From my perspective the net is seldom a true reflection of what is said in practice. Actuality wise I;m not even sure the various gatherings are any more a truthful representation either. To much showmanship going on at those as many try to show they are witchier than another.

    On your sixth comment: The gentlemen said that Gardner had called it the Wiccans Grimoire before retracting it and just saying that it was a Wiccans Book of Shadows. He said that it had everything to do with Hitler, which I think that I might of pointed out, and that Gardner didn't want anything to do with scum like that. Personally Hitler was very big on the Occult and I find it not hard to believe that he would have several prized volumes. Where they are, no one knows.
    I trully do not know enough to make a statement on that one. I do belive though that given the amount of ceremonial influences on what I have seen in Wicca that it is logical that he would call it a grimoire initially.

    Hitler himself was not so much into the occult as was Gerbles I think it was. Yet the whole Nazi movement was heavily influenced by it.

    On your ninth comment: I haven't read that one, thanks for telling me.
    The story of Iphigenia and her sacrifice is pretty well known. It's a Greek story that impacts upon the Trojan War, the sailing of the Greek Fleet, even the saving of an artifact and its eventual movement to both Athens and Sparta. Even the association of the Bear Maidens to Artemis' sanctuary.

    On your eleventh comment: I've actually done the ring around the rosie rhyme and, at the time, I didn't know that it was about the Black Death. Though now I know.
    The association to the black death is one speculation on it. Other's link it to a later plague period that hit London. I just always recall the plague part though there are a number of stories about its origin as well.

    On your thirteenth comment: I've read them and I can understand the pride that Heathens feel. I was very happy to get a chance to read them.
    It's sort of funny in so many ways. Those who follow a nordic inspired pathway almost always have to read those. Those who follow a more Celtic pathway seem to have to read the invasion saga's of Ireland. Occasionally one hears of those and other national sagas when dealing with Saxon practices.

    Myself I just enjoyed reading them. Granted parts of them one really has to follow a northern pathway and understand the inner-workings of the various northern / teutonic pantheons.

    On your forteenth comment: Someone told me as much. Of course some witches, like Laura Cabot, is clearly against the Evil Eye. I've done the evil eye, without realizing it, before. It does work and not because I believe that it did. Of course I might be wrong there.
    Ironically, it always seemed to me the most prolific believers and practioners of that were Italians (Stregia) and those of African descent who went into Santeria / Voudon and similiar pathways.

    Greeks, Anatolians and to a limited degree Egyptians did curse tablets and such but nothing like the Evil Eye that was associated to Italy.

    On your fifteenth comment: I didn't know that. All the books on Wicca that I've read never mentioned that. It clearly stated that it comes back to you three times as strong. I'll write down what you said about that in my book.
    I truthfully think that is an issue of the innercourt / outercourt teachings in the lineaged covens and uninitiated observations. Part of the reason there is so much disparity and disunion between todays Neo-Wicca and the lineaged Wiccan traditions.

    On your last comment: I've not experienced that, though I might of gotten what you said wrong.
    I'm willing to bet you have. Another example that never gets looked at. You go to buy a new home. The developer has the land cleared, usually of all living things, tree's, grass, shrubs, etc, all gone. Then your home is built and if lucky a few shrubs are put in and either grass plugs or seed.

    So once you move in you wonder why its so hot but do not even associate the fact that the greenery is what provides the shade and helps keep temperatures down. Yet its all removed for the new houses and such. For instance around major cities the base level of temperature has been noted as rising as more and more greenery is removed and more and more concrete and asphalt is laid.

    Then you have flooding when it rains. The land is disturbed with seasonal waterways changed. Natural contours of the land no longer provide for the runoff. The natural ability of the land to absorb the moisture changed as more and more topsoil, fauna are removed which allowed for the moisture to be absorbed.

    So you have your new home but everything about it causes problems. Everything up to this point simply inpacting upon the natural order. Add the influx of people, traffic conjestion, pollution (noise, chemical, atmospheric, etc) and it gets worse.

    Each action returning to one upon three possible venues of influence.

    Now to get back to weather witching.

    You have the supposed weather witch. Yet just what is the weather witch? First and foremost its a person who seldom messes with the weather for they know the intriquiet nature of the whole system. To mess at one point means to disrupt at another.

    They seldom will push a storm for it means that the entire hydro-cycle of an area is disturbed. They realize that when an area is given a chance of rain it means that X percentage of a given area will receive moisture of some sort. Yet the conditions have to be present initially to make it happen. Most also realize that to push or pull also means that a simple rain shower can become a hurricane. A gust of wind can become a tornado.

    Most people who use weather magics that I have encountered use it sparringly. Then it maybe to hold off a storm but never stop it. Perhaps to try and lessen the severity of a storm by making it last longer but at a slower rate.

    that and they also realize that their is creation in destruction. Fecundity of the land is renewed through flood and surge.

    To be honest when I hear people speak of doing weather magics I cringe. Mostly because they have no friggin idea of what they are messing with nor the destructive potential that stands to be released.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet Soul30 View Post
    I'm talking about those outside of the Alexanderian tradition. Of course I don't know that much about that type of tradition. Those that don't think it's important to read those dusty, boring, books. The majority do and we can be thankful.
    I mentioned Alexandrian to b specific to Ireland, as that's the big community here due to the Farrar line, but the Alexandrian&Gardnerian Traditions are Traditional Wicca. Before these terms were coined at a later stage, they were both considered the same Witchcraft Tradition(and we've bee told that Alex Sanders was technically considered Gardnerian until 1969) Then later on in the States someone coined the "British Traditional," label that someone sets the traditional aside from those that want to read one book and declare themselves as Wiccans, later stemming from the Goddess&New Age movements and all of that.

    This is where we run into problems in the pagan community. Among Traditional covens, much study is required, and you have coven members who are professional Folklorists, Archeologists, or have degrees in Ancient History, Civilisations, e.t.c. If you try applying to a Traditional coven having read a list of "fluffy books", you're going to be told that they're crap, and be given a list of recommended ones. Therefore it's times like these that I wish those that contribute to Wicca's fluffy stereotype(which is ironic being that actual Traditional Wiccans had little to do with it) would call themselves something else.
    Semper Fidelis

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
    Oh that's bad you should never give a retired sailor an opening like that. Gas, Mind & pressure to many possibilites opening on that one. And they say a man's brain moves about the body he he he
    Yeah and going to the bathroom due to spicy foods (moaning here in pain).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
    The sad part is that it is a position one see's in a lot of pagan type forums. Especially the usage of the word "Muggle" in a negative that is almost equal to the "Mundane" caveot that was going for a bit.



    Oh I understand or understood that. It's just that many today base thier positions upon what they encounter on the net. From my perspective the net is seldom a true reflection of what is said in practice. Actuality wise I;m not even sure the various gatherings are any more a truthful representation either. To much showmanship going on at those as many try to show they are witchier than another.

    (I personally believe that people should base what they said on what they've personally experience and not on something that they get off the web. One website can lie about something and someone out there believes it and reprints it and before long it's on hundreds of websites and soon everyone believes it. Personally I think that's just plain wrong.)

    I trully do not know enough to make a statement on that one. I do belive though that given the amount of ceremonial influences on what I have seen in Wicca that it is logical that he would call it a grimoire initially.

    Hitler himself was not so much into the occult as was Gerbles I think it was. Yet the whole Nazi movement was heavily influenced by it.

    (I know that Hitler was believed to be head of that one society that wanted some energy source so that the Nazi's could become stronger. I know the name but I can't spell it. I know that Gerbles was heavily involved in the occult but where are the works that they amassed, no one knows.)

    The story of Iphigenia and her sacrifice is pretty well known. It's a Greek story that impacts upon the Trojan War, the sailing of the Greek Fleet, even the saving of an artifact and its eventual movement to both Athens and Sparta. Even the association of the Bear Maidens to Artemis' sanctuary.

    (I need to remind my self to buy that book.)

    The association to the black death is one speculation on it. Other's link it to a later plague period that hit London. I just always recall the plague part though there are a number of stories about its origin as well.



    It's sort of funny in so many ways. Those who follow a nordic inspired pathway almost always have to read those. Those who follow a more Celtic pathway seem to have to read the invasion saga's of Ireland. Occasionally one hears of those and other national sagas when dealing with Saxon practices.

    Myself I just enjoyed reading them. Granted parts of them one really has to follow a northern pathway and understand the inner-workings of the various northern / teutonic pantheons.



    Ironically, it always seemed to me the most prolific believers and practioners of that were Italians (Stregia) and those of African descent who went into Santeria / Voudon and similiar pathways.

    Greeks, Anatolians and to a limited degree Egyptians did curse tablets and such but nothing like the Evil Eye that was associated to Italy.

    (I know that archeologist found curse tablets I believe to Hecate, though I might be wrong. I know some author wrote about Hecate and the bad part is that I have her book but I can't remember her name)

    I truthfully think that is an issue of the innercourt / outercourt teachings in the lineaged covens and uninitiated observations. Part of the reason there is so much disparity and disunion between todays Neo-Wicca and the lineaged Wiccan traditions.

    (I didn't know that, thanks for telling me.)

    I'm willing to bet you have. Another example that never gets looked at. You go to buy a new home. The developer has the land cleared, usually of all living things, tree's, grass, shrubs, etc, all gone. Then your home is built and if lucky a few shrubs are put in and either grass plugs or seed.

    So once you move in you wonder why its so hot but do not even associate the fact that the greenery is what provides the shade and helps keep temperatures down. Yet its all removed for the new houses and such. For instance around major cities the base level of temperature has been noted as rising as more and more greenery is removed and more and more concrete and asphalt is laid.

    Then you have flooding when it rains. The land is disturbed with seasonal waterways changed. Natural contours of the land no longer provide for the runoff. The natural ability of the land to absorb the moisture changed as more and more topsoil, fauna are removed which allowed for the moisture to be absorbed.

    So you have your new home but everything about it causes problems. Everything up to this point simply inpacting upon the natural order. Add the influx of people, traffic conjestion, pollution (noise, chemical, atmospheric, etc) and it gets worse.

    Each action returning to one upon three possible venues of influence.

    Now to get back to weather witching.

    You have the supposed weather witch. Yet just what is the weather witch? First and foremost its a person who seldom messes with the weather for they know the intriquiet nature of the whole system. To mess at one point means to disrupt at another.

    They seldom will push a storm for it means that the entire hydro-cycle of an area is disturbed. They realize that when an area is given a chance of rain it means that X percentage of a given area will receive moisture of some sort. Yet the conditions have to be present initially to make it happen. Most also realize that to push or pull also means that a simple rain shower can become a hurricane. A gust of wind can become a tornado.

    Most people who use weather magics that I have encountered use it sparringly. Then it maybe to hold off a storm but never stop it. Perhaps to try and lessen the severity of a storm by making it last longer but at a slower rate.

    that and they also realize that their is creation in destruction. Fecundity of the land is renewed through flood and surge.

    To be honest when I hear people speak of doing weather magics I cringe. Mostly because they have no friggin idea of what they are messing with nor the destructive potential that stands to be released.
    (Well he did mention that it was a lost art, weather witching, though not forgotten.)

    Oh for those that might be confused () represents my answers. I can't get the sections of the original message to go all gray. If someone could help me in doing that then I would be grateful.
    Last edited by Sekhmet Soul30; April 2nd, 2011 at 08:41 AM.

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