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Thread: Revenge and the 3Fold Law

  1. #21
    Russ's Avatar
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    I don't believe in the three fold law so I never worry about it.

    Disclaimer: Never worked a curse either.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanCorrigan View Post
    The ancients understood this. Warriors who did good for their city by killing others still had to undergo purification rituals because they had committed man-slaying. Ask any cop or soldier whether having social permission to kill actually relieves the psychological burden of the deed.
    This is the first I've heard of this in all my years studying Pagansim.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by aynfean
    No you understood correct. By source I meant the person who did the abusing.

    Maybe I'm totally wrong, and that my past experience is very much clouding my judgement. But to me sending all of the negative emotional energy someone inflicted on a partner via words and fists back to them not as words or fists but the energy scar that leaves behind so that the partner doesn't have to carry it around anymore just doesn't seem wrong.
    I agree with you, especially if you are dealing with an ongoing situation.

    I wouldn't find it immoral to return an unopened bomb; why should it be immoral to decline delivery of negative energy, mark it "return to sender," and turn it around?

    As for intent, I can't fathom how returning a negative of SOMEONE ELSE'S creation is in any way an expression of negative intent on the part of the target. Declining to be a victim is not the same as being the perpetrator. The alternative choices of acceptance and/or shielding are always there, but are not, IMO, morally superior to causing the boomerang of someone else's negative intent.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDamiana View Post
    As for intent, I can't fathom how returning a negative of SOMEONE ELSE'S creation is in any way an expression of negative intent on the part of the target. Declining to be a victim is not the same as being the perpetrator. The alternative choices of acceptance and/or shielding are always there, but are not, IMO, morally superior to causing the boomerang of someone else's negative intent.
    That is exactly the point I was trying to make and the way I feel about it. Thank you.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDamiana View Post
    I agree with you, especially if you are dealing with an ongoing situation.

    I wouldn't find it immoral to return an unopened bomb; why should it be immoral to decline delivery of negative energy, mark it "return to sender," and turn it around?

    As for intent, I can't fathom how returning a negative of SOMEONE ELSE'S creation is in any way an expression of negative intent on the part of the target. Declining to be a victim is not the same as being the perpetrator. The alternative choices of acceptance and/or shielding are always there, but are not, IMO, morally superior to causing the boomerang of someone else's negative intent.
    Hm, if someone cuts you off in traffic and you get ahead then prevent them from doing it again is that a negative? To some yes for you are actively doing something to cause a change or influence, thereby no longer in a inactive state but actively trying to influence the outcome or change.

    In some arena's causing a boomerang affect / effect is no different for you actively and knowingly are causing and manipulating energy regardless of the impression upon it.

    Though for the record I see nothing wrong with the idea just presenting a counter-perspective.

  5. #25
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    I believe the Three-Fold Law was designed to encourage people to consider what they're doing, not tell them whether or not to take an action. I don't believe it encourages you to lie there and take it like "turn the other cheek" either. I believe the gods help those who help themselves. I don't feel one has to choose to live their lives passively and/or as a victim to avoid the karmetic retribution of the Three-Fold law. I really think it's just there to say, "Hey, Think a minute. Is what you're doing right?"

  6. #26
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    I heard a version of the "law" that goes:

    Do what you will, know what you do.

    Which to me makes a lot more sense and is far more "liveable".

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra
    Hm, if someone cuts you off in traffic and you get ahead then prevent them from doing it again is that a negative?
    Yes, THAT would be....because the first cut-off incident is a done deal; by choosing to re-engage, the one-time victim has now become a perpetrator and has now chosen to initiate negative behavior.

    This isn't really a match for the original scenario posted. A better match would be "With a driver attempting to cut you off, do you slow down and drop back, or maintain speed and hope for the best, or accelerate and cut them off first?" The choice made then is moral or not, depending on the safety of both parties and of surrounding traf
    fic.

    But there's nothing wrong with a counter-perspective.

    On a slightly-different tack, I don't myself believe in the threefold law....because I don't see how to reconcile it with conservation of energy. Where does the extra 200% come from, and at what cost?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDamiana View Post
    ..
    But there's nothing wrong with a counter-perspective.

    On a slightly-different tack, I don't myself believe in the threefold law....because I don't see how to reconcile it with conservation of energy. Where does the extra 200% come from, and at what cost?
    I've never quite figured that part out myself. The closest I've ever come involves fluid dynamics and specific placement of objects at a given point and preciece timing and weighting to cause stacking of ripple energy. But that simply didn't hold water when you look at the randomness of the 3-fold law.

  9. #29
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    Thought I'd come out of lurking to share my thoughts on the topic, sorry it's so long...

    Quote Originally Posted by aynfean View Post
    MonSno: You're assuming that everyone subscribes to the theory that we pay in this life for sins of the past. That is absolutely arrogant, one of the things I've always liked about pagans in general is that so few seem to have the "I've got it totally right and everyone who disagrees with me is just WRONG" mentality.
    Except, it doesn't really make sense to be talking about Karma if you don't believe that the "sins" (not sure that's the best phrasing, more like actions, deeds, thoughts, and so on, good and bad) in past lives are impacting your current life, right?

    Anyway, as for the topic at hand, I'm not Wiccan, and the 3-fold law is really not a part of my paradigm, particularly the way I tend to see people talking about it (as I'm said, I'm not Wiccan, and so I don't know if Trad Wicca might have other interpretations that make more sense than the popular versions I tend to see), where a person does bad or good, and then bad or good is sent back times three (whether in a literal times three, or sent back physically, mentally, and spiritually). Bad things happen to good people and vice versa, and sometimes people who do bad things never feel it's effects, not even just in the sense of feeling guilt.

    That being said, I do believe that every action has consequences. Less in "bounce back at you" kind of way and more in a "ripple out in all directions" kind of way. These consequences do not always reflect original action (sometimes really bad actions can result in the occasional good consequence, and vice versa) but there are always consequences.

    Furthermore, I think that everything you do is going to have an impact on you. Not so much in that the Universe is going to punish/reward you for what you've done, but rather that once you've done something, you are person who would do that thing, for better or for worse. If you kill someone, you are now the kind of person who would kill someone. It might have been the absolute right thing to do (maybe the person you killed was about to torture and kill you and your family and that was the only way to stop him/her, who knows), but you still have to live with knowing what you're capable of. Maybe you're okay with that, or maybe it will eat you alive. The bottom line is, you need to be prepared to accept the consequences, whatever your actions, and know that sometimes you won't be able to predict those consequences.

    Now, all that being said, I don't necessarily have an issue with doing magics that could be considered harmful. Sometimes they're necessary, and if you're prepared to deal with the consequences (and have honestly thought things through. I don't have an issue with, say, binding someone to stop them from doing a great deal of harm to someone else, but I do have an issue with cursing someone because they accidentally bumped into you, or they made eyes at someone you have a crush on, or you just plain don't like them. Make sure that whatever your actions are, they are in line with your moral code). If you decide that a particular magic is necessary, so much so that you're willing to deal with whatever consequences may come up, well then you should probably do it.

    Of course, if the possibility of negative consequences affecting you is enough to make you shy off a particular magic (and the fact that you asked whether or not the 3-fold law would be in play here, rather than whether or not people thought it was a morally acceptable decision suggest that in this case, it is enough to make you shy off), then it might not be something worth doing, or even something you should be doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by aynfean View Post
    Actions aren't good or evil, it's intent that colors.
    See now, this I take issue with. Magic (and yes, in many cases actions, though there are a few actions that I would argue are evil no matter what, though they are few and far between) may not be good or evil, but intent is not the only the only thing that comes into play in making it one or the other or something in between. Results, consequences, damages, these things all matter too. You may do a spell with the best of intentions, but if it results in serious harm, you can't really say it was all good because your intentions were, can you? You're still going to have to live with the fact that something you did caused great harm, and that you are a person capable of causing great harm, and those affected by your magic are still going to have to live with the consequences of what you did, and for that reason it's important to consider all the possible consequences of your actions (in so much as it is possible to judge all possible consequences) and to be careful about how you go about your workings.



    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDamiana View Post
    I wouldn't find it immoral to return an unopened bomb; why should it be immoral to decline delivery of negative energy, mark it "return to sender," and turn it around?
    Really? No qualms whatsoever? Even though you'd be putting at serious risk not just the sender, but everyone who is involved in delivering it back to the original sender? And anyone who happens to be near wherever it gets sent back to? And everyone who is near the package, wherever it might be, between you resending it and it arriving at the original sender? Not to mention if the return address was a PO box.

    I think there are some situations where you just need to call in the authorities and the people trained to deal with that sort of thing, even if it means that the person who sent it won't get a punishment quite fitting the crime. Because if you go and put inncoent people at risk just to get revenge, are you really any better than the person who sent it originally?

    Besides, what are the odds that the sender would put a valid return address? That's just silly :]

  10. #30
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    I do not believe in the Rule of Three. I tend to have a very scientific view of energy, in that it is neither created nor destroyed - therefore if we do good things, we get those good things back; if we do bad things, we get those bad things back... there is no allowance for anything to be multiplied. That would imply that there is way more negative energy running around than positive energy. That is not something I am willing to believe or accept.

    In Buddhism, karma is for the universe to give. If you do something that earns you bad karma, you will receive it. If someone does something horrible to you, YOU do not return their karma. The universe will do so. You acting out revenge will only earn you negative karma.

    I tend to think this way. When people have done wrong things to me, sometimes it is very hard, but I find comfort in knowing that somewhere... sometime... they will get theirs in return, and I will be relatively safe because I erred on the side of caution. I feel that any person who is willing to use magic to cause harm for any reason should only understand the potential consequences for themselves. I am not one to mandate morals. One should realize that karma does operate and your deeds will come back to you.
    Also in Buddhism, karma manifests itself in your future reincarnations... so you might not have to worry about it for a while.
    Cosmic
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