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Thread: Shredding the Veil between worlds?

  1. #1
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    Question Shredding the Veil between worlds?

    My friend and I were having a conversation today, and he mentioned that his new 'life goal' is to punch a hole in the veil between the worlds. When I pressed him for details, he said that he believes the Veil is an artificial construction made by humans to keep magickal energy, elementals, spirits, and even the gods away from Earth, and that this was done when the advent of modern science and rationality began to replace the previous long-standing belief in magic and the power of the various 'mythological' gods. According to him, the veil between the worlds needs to be done away with, so that the old gods and spirits can come back to earth and resume their proper existence and interact with the physical plane the way they once did. Finally, he said that he considered it his duty to rip apart the veil, in order to make way for a new paradigm, one where there is no distinction between the spiritual plane and the physical plane and where the various spiritual entities can take physical form and walk among humans. Basically, this would turn the Earth into a physical Summerland (or blessed realm, or what-have-you).

    This seems to me to be very wrong, and I can't quite put my finger on why. My instinct is to say that the worlds are separate for a reason, and that completely shredding the veil would cause havoc on a massive scale. I believe that the gods are indeed present on Earth, but in a more abstract and metaphorical sense (i.e. you can sense the presence of Zeus in a thunderstorm or in the wind or in your own mind, however best you connect with him, but that Zeus never took a physical body and walked down the streets of Athens high-fiveing people). I know that entities can occasionally cross through the veil and that contact can certainly be made with the spiritual plane, but merging the two worlds seems fundamentally wrong for some reason. I'd love to have some more opinions on this, if people are willing. Do you think the veil can be destroyed? Is it there for a reason? Is this something that can and should happen, and what possible effects would this have on the world?
    There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
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    "Tell me - is this real, or has it been happening inside my head?" "Of course it is inside your head, Harry, but why should that mean it's not real?" -Dumbledore

  2. #2
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    I kinda like your friend's idea but at the same time I also think it feels a bit wrong. I don't believe that the Veil was created by humans but it was a natural border that began from the beginning of the universe. Without the veil not only would spirits, elementals, faeries, etc. be spewing through all the time but also various worlds and planes of existence would be colliding with each other. I don't think the veil should be destroyed and if someone would attempt to it would take an immense amount of energy, more than a single human soul can raise. This veil has been around for 13.7 billion years so it's obviously very durable but at the same time thin enough for things to slip through. Your best chance would be to try around the time of Samhain when the veil between worlds is especially thin.

  3. #3
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    Personaly I think it's a crack pot idea and position. Firstly it relies upon the idea that the veil only seperates two demensions and a few plains of existance. Yet nearly every spiriutal system defines the world against a tree backdrop of an upper or celestial plain, a lower or chthonic plain and of course the material plain upon which we live. Then one has to consider that each of those plains, celestial, chthonic and material hold multiple plains that make up each not even considering alternate demensions and plains of realility that exist within the concept of time, space and realility. Nor does it truly touch upon the notion of time with regards to it being competely present all at once or linear as mankind recognizes it and see's it under most conditions.

    Event the notion of the veil being thinest at Shamhain is sort of hokey when you consider that is based upon a Northern European backdrop of the cycle of the year and seasons. The time of the dead is different in Asia, Africa and the Middle East than in Northern Europe. That the European influnce has spread globaly and influences things such as The Day of the Dead in hispanic culture doesn't make it truth that the veil is thinest at that time frame. It only supports the notion and globalization that occured through out the colonial period of European expansion.

    One also has to consider which veil is being spoken of? The veil between life and death if far different than that which seperates one plain of existance from another. The cultural definitations of Veil between worlds is also quite different and how it is constructed. Look to many concepts and you find the gods / goddesses live within the plain of mankind yet exist in the sky or beneath the earth while the deamons and such resided on the moon in Chaldean though for example.

    Then one can look to the concept of Physcial plain, Etheral plain, Astral plain, celestial plain and chthonic plains of existance. None of that touching upon the notion of all of them existing in both the external world and within the internal world or mindscape of all living creature's though better defined in humanity as far as we know.

    Sorry to me as I stated it's a pretty crack pot idea based upon a limited notion of just what the veil is and how it works. Though on the surface it has a very strong Wiccanesq perspective of what the veil is that differs greatly from that understood by shamanic practitioners or practices not based upon Wiccan concepts.

  4. #4
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    The "worlds" aren't separate. That's just the prevalent perception of them because most people aren't ready to handle the full meal deal that is our
    reality.
    The Sexy Heathen Babe

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
    The "worlds" aren't separate. That's just the prevalent perception of them because most people aren't ready to handle the full meal deal that is our
    reality.
    I'd agree fully with that statement.

  6. #6
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    My views on it are kind of different than a lot of the ones posted thus far, and probably my views on the gods are probably not a very popular rendition. I think it's a horrible idea, and your friend is probably a bit naive or something.

    But it seems to me like, if the gods are real, if all the strange beings mentioned in mythology throughout history have some basis in a distant past in which they walked the earth, but have now receded. Yeah, sure, you get Athena and Odin and the rest of the benevolent (read: not overtly antagonistic) beings. But you also get minotarus and kelpies and other weird things that made sport of tormenting and/or killing humans, and even the "gods" weren't that great because their mythological depictions show them typically neutral towards humanity, except as pawns and sources of amusement in most cases. (Prometheus being a major exception, and he was severely punished by his peers for his abundance of human sympathy. Also many Hindu gods and goddesses are benevolent in some aspects.) How many ancient Greek wars were fought because one Olympian was having some feud with another, according to the recorded mythos?

    There's also the possibility that rending the veil in a way such that it is completely removed would "break" the universe in some horrid irreparable way, because I do not remotely think that it's there just because we as humans don't believe in dragons hard enough or whatever New Age woo woo thing is allegedly going on. I think too that the universe is a very logical place, and if something like that exists, it's because of physics, and screwing too hard with physics makes things explode.

    ETA: Does your friend actually have a plan for how he's going to achieve this? And it is a somewhat peculiar goal, even amongst the pagan/spiritual/new age crowd, was there anything that incited this new goal in your friend?
    Last edited by barfcookies; October 28th, 2012 at 10:43 PM.

  7. #7
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    Sounds like he's been reading Marion Zimmer Bradley's Ghostlight... http://www.amazon.com/Ghostlight-Mar.../dp/B004JU1SGW

    Mixed reviews, but the magic work attempted in the book is just that, to break the separation between this realm and the realm of the gods.

  8. #8
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    I never understood the concept of the "veil". I don't believe it is literally a veil acting as a magical barrier separating different realms and therefore not something you can destroy. I believe different magical or spiritual realms or whatever you want to call it, exist at different frequency levels. So if you can't perceive fairies and gods and ascended masters, that's your problem. It's an individually conditioned problem. It explains why children can see spirits more than adults. If an actual veil existed, you would assume it would block that sight across all humans regardless of age or social conditioning. Individuals are the ones who choose what they want to believe or see, so punch all you like, you're not gonna make a dent in anything.

  9. #9
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    It's to do with perception and the mind.
    The only thing that sucks around here is a straw.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Runa~ View Post
    It's to do with perception and the mind.
    I'd disagree to the point that in most culture's it pertains to the boundary between the living and the dead or life and death. The notion of separation between plains of existance seldom is a boundary that one has to cross or can cross without considerable difficulty and challenge. Many times having a boundary guardian to prevent such easy crossing such as Cerebus on land or The Hydra via water for instance. One might go so far as to say the Bi-Frost bridge is such a boundary.

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