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Thread: Books: traditional vrs wicca, help?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gruagach View Post
    you might find Raven Grimassi's books to be of interest. He presents a more "traditional" approach, closer to what Gardner presented in his books than some books on Wicca, but again he makes a lot of questionable claims (in particular with regards to history.)
    Ouch, Ben.

    But I guess there is some comfort to take in being labeled “questionable” as opposed to other descriptions I have seen. And hey, at least I made the list.

    Joking aside, if I make people think or question, then I think I have been of some service.

    As to the history I present in my books, I like to think of it as a suppressed history as opposed to the account of the victors. The Sicilian folklorist Guiseppe Pitre’ once noted that there are “two histories” - that of the dominators and that of the dominated. He said that they should not be confused with one another. In his own work he set out to “save the memories of the dominated” which “do not coincide with the memories of the dominators” (and I feel that this is what I try and do as well). I imagine time will tell whether I was successful or self-deluded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gruagach View Post
    Yeah, eveyone wants to think their version is the "real thing" (which, in a "One True Way" way of thinking, means the rest out there must be false.)
    I wonder if there is some general misinterpretation at foot here. I know for myself that while I believe in the authenticity and antiquity of the tradition I practice, this does not cause me to think that different traditions are false. Traditions do not have to be old in order to be valid; some just happen to be old.

    I liken this to an Old World family tradition of shoemakers who still make shoes in the old tradition. Are these shoes superior to shoes made with new methods? Some might say yes and others no. But is the shoe itself really better, more authentic, or is it just a different shoe? In this light, if a shoe of any type fits and it is comfortable, and gets you down the path, well then wear it and enjoy it.
    Last edited by raven grimassi; December 24th, 2006 at 06:43 PM.
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...(from Hamlet).

  2. #22
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    Overlook me if I repeat anything others may have already said as I have not taken time to read the posts before mine yet.

    I would suggest books by the likes of Doreen Valiente, Sybil Leek, Margot Adler, Raymond Buckland, The Farrars (S and J ),Cat Yronwode, Christopher Penzack, Mike Nichols etc etc
    I didn't start out reading books when I began because they were hard to come by way back then. I will say this though IMHO, the older books have alot more depth to them for me. I am not Wiccan , I know a little bit about it but thats all. It is also my opinion that you should read about different paths which will help you understand some things as well as maybe help you form your own opinion as to what you believe and aid you in choosing a path. You have all the time in the world to decide which path you wish to persue.
    Last edited by Teresa; December 24th, 2006 at 09:16 PM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaye Sabariego View Post
    I didn't start out reading books when I began because they were hard to come by way back then.
    That's so true. Living in the rural midwest, I didn't have access to a 1/8 of the books that are sold in stores now. Even after my first Craft teacher gave me a reading list of recommended books when I was 13 (in 197, I had to wait many years to find all of them.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven grimassi View Post
    As to the history I present in my books, I like to think of it as a suppressed history as opposed to the account of the victors. The Sicilian folklorist Guiseppe Pitre’ once noted that there are “two histories” - that of the dominators and that of the dominated. He said that they should not be confused with one another. In his own work he set out to “save the memories of the dominated” which “do not coincide with the memories of the dominators” (and I feel that this is what I try and do as well). I imagine time will tell whether I was successful or self-deluded..
    The two Histories is a concept I grew up with. I understand it all too well. As a Native American growing up here in the US. I obviously went to Public School here. Every year i had the history of the Dominant Society taught to me as gospel. I was told that Columbus "discovered" America and that Civilization moved West with the European Cultures and that my Savage Barbaric Ancesters were "saved" by the coming of the White Man. My Traditional Cultural Relogion and the Ways of my People were labled savage and barbaric.
    The same events are obviously seen in a very different light by my People. We call what occured during the formation of the US--Genocide. Raven's works have the ring of truth for me because I know that any Dominant Society will write History in a similar fassion to the US Historians. It is Human nature to do so. The Conqorers write the History Books to suit themselves and cast their beliefs and actions in the best light, while simultaniously discrediting the Conqured.

    Donadagohvi heyataheisti ale styoh! (Until we meet again, be brave and stay strong!)
    All opinions and views expressed in this post are soly those of
    Desert Witch
    and do not reflect those of his Wife, Children, Friends and Family, or arguably, any sane individual. READER DISCRETION is advised.:deviltail

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    Men should be judged, not by their tint of skin, the Gods they serve, the vintage that they drink, nor by the way they fight, or love, or sin. but by the quality of thought they think.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert_Witch View Post
    The two Histories is a concept I grew up with. I understand it all too well. As a Native American growing up here in the US. I obviously went to Public School here. Every year i had the history of the Dominant Society taught to me as gospel.
    Right, and this applies to various "minority" groups across the board. For example, look at how gays were viewed "historically" up until recent modern times. If we accept only that history, and not the history they write themselves, what conclusions would be drawn? (I'm including negative stereotypes as part of the "official history" as it became the dominators truth, which resulted in the negative and commonly derogatory use of such terms as fag, homo, etc.)

    When we look at the "history" of witchcraft we need to remember that it was written by those opposed to the witch. We need alternative histories lest we lose the balance through which the truth is still discernable.
    Last edited by *Rasenna*; December 26th, 2006 at 04:33 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starssobrite View Post
    Does anyone know of a good book(s) that is more traditional witchcraft vrs wicca or any books other then Llewellyn published. I have read mostly Llewellyn published books and find then how do I say repetitive, looking for something different. I'm still in the discover and research stage not really practicing yet

    Melissa
    Starrsobrite, while I would be the last to refrain from saying that Llewellyn publishes loads of rubbish, they also publish the occassional gem-- a tried-=and-true classic (particularly in the 70s and early 80s). Of those texts thatr I can actually recommend would be the following (please take heart and try not to throw out the baby with the bath water, which is easy when one becomes disillusioned):

    • The Elements of Ritual: Air, Fire, Water & Earth in the Wiccan Circle -- Deborah Lipp [This is one of those books, that makes so much damned good sense, that I wish it had been available years ago, back when I was a newb! It details many of the whys, rather than the how-tos of casting a ritual Circle. One of the best books I've read in a long while! I hope to see more such as this published in recent years to come! BUY THIS BOOK!!!]
    • Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft -- Dr. Raymond Buckland [A Gardnerian HP; Buckland was sent to the US upon Gardner's request as a missionary for "the Old Religion" (i.e., Wica). He's the "Father" of American Wicca and Witchcraft.]
    • Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner -- Scott Cunningham
    • Living Wicca: A Further Guide for the Solitary Practitioner -- Scott Cunningham [I adore the second text over the latter, though my only reservation is that the Neophyte simply wouldn't know what to do with the chapter on developing one's own Tradition. This is why a thorough grounding in Traditionalism is so important, first, IMHO.]
    • A Grimoire of Shadows -- Ed Fitch [Outer Court material; a historic text in the developement of American Paganism.]
    • Magical Rites from the Crystal Well -- Ed Fitch [Ditto; Outer Court material.]
    • Crafting the Art of Magic -- Aiden Kelley [Again, more Inner Court material. It's a textual analyses of the Gardnerian BOS which, according to Gardnerian HP Charles Clark, Gerald gave the owner of Llewellyn Pub. permission to publish the Gardnerian BOS. This book is to be re-published, shortly-- and if Aidan is reading this, I'd love a freebie, being a truly penniless Pagan-- under the title of Inventing Witchcraft, by Thoth Pub. in the UK.! It will make use of far more recent research, and will also include the material which was omitted by the publisher during its initial publication. This book represents one of the first historographies on modern Paganism, thus, it should also be under the WICCAN/PAGAN HISTORY section. Be that as it may, as highly as a recommend this text due to the extracts of Gardnerian material, it should be tempered with this Critical Review of the text!]
    • Circles, Groves, & Sanctuaries -- Dan & Pauline Campanelli [A lovely look, and explaination, of modern Pagan altars!]
    • The Complete Book of Incense, Oils & Brews -- Scott Cunningham
    • Incense: Crafting & Use of Magickal Scents -- Carl F. Niel
    • Cunningham's Encyclopedia of Crystal, Gem & Metal Magick -- Scott Cunningham


    Also, please do not be tempted to confuse Fluff Bunny Witchcrap (or "Neo-Wicca") with real "Wican" Witchcraft! The two are far different.

    Now, if you have an interest in non-Wiccan Witchcraft, I would recommend the following texts (with an especial emphesis on my personal hero, Doreen Valiente):

    • Spells & How They Work -- Janet & Stewart Farrar
    • Witchcraft for Tomorrow -- Doreen Valiente [I adore all of her texts, and personally consider them to be obligatory!]
    • An ABC of Witchcraft Past & Present -- Doreen Valiente
    • Natural Magic -- Doreen Valiente
    • Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed -- Even John Jones, with Doreen Valiente
    • The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism -- Shelley Rabinovitch and James Lewis [A very well research text by various Pagan scholars (i.e. Pagans that happen to have advanced degrees). It also includes the little known propper companion piece to The Charge of The Goddess, by Doreen Valiente, The Charge of The God.]
    • The Key of Solomon (Clavicula Salomonis) -- S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers Translated and edited from manuscripts at the British Museum
    • The Goetia: The Lesser Key of Solomon the King (Clavicula Salomonis Regis) -- Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers
    • 777 and Other Qabalistic Writings of Alesister Crowley -- A.C.
    • Ritual Magick of the Golden Dawn -- [ed.] Francis King
    • Lady Rhea's Enchanted Candle Spells: How to Carve, Glitter, & breathe Life into your Enchanted Candle [First Ed., Completely Revised Version of, "The Enchanted Candle" also by Lady Rhea] -- Lady Rhea
    • The Enchanted Candle: Crafting & casting Magickal Light -- Lady Rheah, with Eve LeFey
    • The Healing Craft: Healing Practices for Witches & Pagans -- Janet & Stewart Farrar, and Gavin Bone


    Good luck on your Path!

  7. #27
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    Um....no offense intended but the original request was for books on traditional Witchcraft/Wicca, and I hardly think that Cunningham's books are about traditional Craft. He was the King of PIOOYAW (pull it out of your a** Wicca). I'd hate to see a true seeker of traditional Craft misdirected to Cunningham.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis Descending View Post
    Um....no offense intended but the original request was for books on traditional Witchcraft/Wicca, and I hardly think that Cunningham's books are about traditional Craft. He was the King of PIOOYAW (pull it out of your a** Wicca). I'd hate to see a true seeker of traditional Craft misdirected to Cunningham.

    Um...No offense intended here ether, but Cunningham held a second degree in my Trad and the third in about three others before he died. he left my Trad calling it "Livingroom Wicca". An accusation I cannot refute, unfortunatly. His work is a how too at the most basic denominator. he leaves out all the Trad Wicca dogma he believed to be bulls***! While he does preach all sweetness and light, I can point out public works of his that containe plenty of info on Curses etc. Scot's life was full of hardships I for one am glad I do not have to face, and so who can blame him for concentrating on light and goodness in order to bring more of that into his life? Or for recomending his readers do the same, rather than suggest they curse their neighbor for playing loud misic?
    I read loads of Cunningham when I was a newb, and I did not turn into a fluffy wuss. Just read my posts regarding the Rede of Hekate if you want some proof of that. I recomend Cunningham for anyone starting on their Path.
    All opinions and views expressed in this post are soly those of
    Desert Witch
    and do not reflect those of his Wife, Children, Friends and Family, or arguably, any sane individual. READER DISCRETION is advised.:deviltail

    _________________________________________________

    Men should be judged, not by their tint of skin, the Gods they serve, the vintage that they drink, nor by the way they fight, or love, or sin. but by the quality of thought they think.

    Laurence Hope

    _____________________________________

    "Studies have clearly shown that repeated posting of bullshit does not result in any significant reduction in the level of bullshit contained in the information posted. "

    NiftyWings

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert_Witch View Post
    I read loads of Cunningham when I was a newb, and I did not turn into a fluffy wuss. Just read my posts regarding the Rede of Hekate if you want some proof of that. I recomend Cunningham for anyone starting on their Path.
    I didn't say that Cunningham's material has no value, I just said it's not traditional Craft. A request for suggested good books on traditional Craft was what started this thread off. I'm just pointing out that Cunningham doesn't fit the bill.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis Descending View Post
    I didn't say that Cunningham's material has no value, I just said it's not traditional Craft. A request for suggested good books on traditional Craft was what started this thread off. I'm just pointing out that Cunningham doesn't fit the bill.

    In what way?
    All opinions and views expressed in this post are soly those of
    Desert Witch
    and do not reflect those of his Wife, Children, Friends and Family, or arguably, any sane individual. READER DISCRETION is advised.:deviltail

    _________________________________________________

    Men should be judged, not by their tint of skin, the Gods they serve, the vintage that they drink, nor by the way they fight, or love, or sin. but by the quality of thought they think.

    Laurence Hope

    _____________________________________

    "Studies have clearly shown that repeated posting of bullshit does not result in any significant reduction in the level of bullshit contained in the information posted. "

    NiftyWings

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