Unorthodox views of the other guy?

[Burning Angel]

Originally Posted by john.a

I completely agree. I am quite gay and I hate it when fundamental Protestant Christians characterize me as some kind of a demon that needs to be exorcised.

However, why disqualify a concept because flawed humanity has flawedly used it? Flawed humanity has flawedly huged up all religious systems and used their religious systems to subjugate others and justify their actions. Does that mean that humanity should really just disqualify all philosophical concepts of God, spirituality and religious experience?

Not at all. But it does mean that the concept is very dangerous for humans to use. Umm...then again I did summon a Goetic demon twice this morning, as a good friend rather than a monster to be bound and compelled, so who am I to talk?

I hate it when people use logic on me Good job!

In Chaos,
~Jon~

[john.a]

Originally Posted by Burning Angel

Umm...then again I did summon a Goetic demon twice this morning, as a good friend rather than a monster to be bound and compelled, so who am I to talk?

In Chaos,
~Jon~

Fascinating. I've tried to summon a few in my time as an occultist. I guess I was a bad occultist. =) A mild stomach ache was all I got most of the time I tackled the Goetia.

What, may I ask, is the experience of Goetic evocation like? Are the demons visual? What are they capable of on the material plane?

[Burning Angel]

That deserves its own thread, John...I wanted people to answer a similar one on another forum but no luck, so I'll start one with the MW peeps and see what they say. Look in Magic and Ritual

In Chaos,
~Jon~

[David19]

Originally Posted by Burning Angel

Well that compass may change. Give it time

I hope not, I mean, what kind of world would we have, if people saw pediphilia, the Holocaust, rape, etc as "good" things?, would you really want to live in that world?.

Well one system preaches one thing, another system preaches the exact opposite - within Kemeticism you have Setians, who as you know from talking to Darth Brooks, are not evilbads, despite what the majority preaches...but Set himself was more popular in the early days, if I remember right. Same with Hekate! So obviously ideas can change within a system as to who's even the "devil" of the system from year to year...how do you reason objective evil from a polytheistic viewpoint?

DB also said Apep can be considered pure evil, also, Kemetics don't demonize the followers of Set, especially when he's quite a beloved God by many. Objective evil does exist, just ask any rape victim, just ask any survivor of child sex abuse, just ask a Jew who survived the Extermination Chambers, or someone in Darfur, it does exist.

The Kemetic perspective, yeah. Did you talk to Apep himself? Because most humans, no matter how insane, have some kind of reason for committing their crimes...I refuse to believe that a cosmic force could be less sensible than a goofy old human

In Chaos,
~Jon~

You can talk to Hitler too, and, I'm sure he'd give you a "great" explanation why the Jews deserved to die, I'm also sure pediphiles can give "reasoned" explanations why they do what they do (afterall, I'm sure the way a child looks at them is really, secretly, a "come on" look), etc, even if someone doesn't view their own actions as evil, that does not mean they, and/or their actions, are not, I'm sure most people would agree that anyone who would say Hitler was not evil, or would try to defend him, probably suffers from some kind of mental deficiency.

Like, I am a complete Polytheist, but, that doesn't mean I have to suddenly say "no, evil doesn't exist, why Hitler was just a misunderstood and angry individual", the fact is ancient cultures and religions did have evil entities, they have a line between what was good and what was evil, it might not have been as clear cut as in some Christian beliefs, but, there was a seperation between good and evil.

[Burning Angel]

Originally Posted by David19

I hope not, I mean, what kind of world would we have, if people saw pediphilia, the Holocaust, rape, etc as "good" things?, would you really want to live in that world?.

Of course not..doesn't mean that our viewpoints aren't totally dependent on our conditioning and existing psychology, though, and only perceived as objective That said, objective evil would be a great concept if it were used properly.

Originally Posted by David19

DB also said Apep can be considered pure evil, also, Kemetics don't demonize the followers of Set, especially when he's quite a beloved God by many. Objective evil does exist, just ask any rape victim, just ask any survivor of child sex abuse, just ask a Jew who survived the Extermination Chambers, or someone in Darfur, it does exist.

And DB's opinion is not the one I wanted - I want to know if Apep really is evil, or if he's no more evil than a wolf who hunts the weakest of the pack, mauls them, and eats them because it's his nature.

Originally Posted by David19

You can talk to Hitler too, and, I'm sure he'd give you a "great" explanation why the Jews deserved to die, I'm also sure pediphiles can give "reasoned" explanations why they do what they do (afterall, I'm sure the way a child looks at them is really, secretly, a "come on" look), etc, even if someone doesn't view their own actions as evil, that does not mean they, and/or their actions, are not, I'm sure most people would agree that anyone who would say Hitler was not evil, or would try to defend him, probably suffers from some kind of mental deficiency.

Like, I am a complete Polytheist, but, that doesn't mean I have to suddenly say "no, evil doesn't exist, why Hitler was just a misunderstood and angry individual", the fact is ancient cultures and religions did have evil entities, they have a line between what was good and what was evil, it might not have been as clear cut as in some Christian beliefs, but, there was a seperation between good and evil.

Of course you don't have to - and he might have been "evil" but I have been trying to explain for oh....a week and sixteen posts now that "objective" beliefs are actually highly dependent on conditioning, culture, your own psychology and other factors...it's not that evil doesn't exist, but that human perception is so flawed. Meanwhile, you're breaking Godwin's Law like crazy :S

I think if any Christians with an unorthodox view of Satan and/or demonic forces (or anyone else interested) want to discuss the original topic, we can most certainly do that...but I don't like to argue when there's no hope of anyone changing their mind. It's entirely pointless and ticks me off

In Chaos,
~Jon~

[David19]

Originally Posted by Burning Angel

And DB's opinion is not the one I wanted - I want to know if Apep really is evil, or if he's no more evil than a wolf who hunts the weakest of the pack, mauls them, and eats them because it's his nature.

Well, the only way to do that would be to invite it into your home, which I wouldn't recommend.

[Burning Angel]

Originally Posted by David19

Well, the only way to do that would be to invite it into your home, which I wouldn't recommend.

Of course not But there's no reason to be equally evil and assume the worst, either

In Chaos,
~Jon~