Other Gods/Goddesses in Christian Wicca?

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Tiberias

The question then becomes, if the vast majority of Group A believes that A, B, and C are necessary to be a member of Group A, is it really valid for Individual B to claim membership in Group A even though they believe that A and B are flat-out wrong? I'd say it's pretty clear that it isn't. It's just hijacking a popular/familiar name for a completely different set of beliefs. Might as well just call it Mercerism or Islam or Scientology at that point.

Good point. Except that in this case, we are already admitting that there is quite a bit of difference from the original religion, by saying it's a mixture between Christianity and Wicca. Obviously the two religions are quite different, and there will be significant variance from the originals to make it work.

Also there is another issue, where a person follows the traditions from a certain religion, except perhaps the few that are considered required for initiation. Like following everything from d-z of the Christian religion, while not seeing the need for the a,b, or c. While to the general public who wish to define things in neat little packages might say that this disqualifies said person from said religion; when it comes to associations this person will feel more at home in this religion than in any other. Following a particular religion 90% of the way should be acknowledged as such, whether or not the 10% involves the qualifying factors of the religion.

[Louisvillian]

Originally Posted by Tobias

Good point. Except that in this case, we are already admitting that there is quite a bit of difference from the original religion, by saying it's a mixture between Christianity and Wicca.

Here's the thing, though. Unlike Wicca, Christianity is a religion defined by orthodoxy. If you stray enough out of that orthodoxy, then it simply is not Christianity anymore. Especially if one were to toss out one of Christianity's basic tenets, i.e. monotheism.

[Nachtigall]

Originally Posted by firefairy86

I thought that being a Christian simply means believing in Christ as your savior. The different sects of Christianity have their own interpretations of the bible and what is the right way to worship Christ. IMO I could see Christian Wicca working if your going on your own interpretation of the bible.

Which raises another question. How do Christian Wiccans reconcile the concepts of the original sin and the need for salvation with Wiccan theology? Do they believe that we are all born sinners because of Eve?

[Lunacie]

Originally Posted by Tobias

Good point. Except that in this case, we are already admitting that there is quite a bit of difference from the original religion, by saying it's a mixture between Christianity and Wicca. Obviously the two religions are quite different, and there will be significant variance from the originals to make it work.

Also there is another issue, where a person follows the traditions from a certain religion, except perhaps the few that are considered required for initiation. Like following everything from d-z of the Christian religion, while not seeing the need for the a,b, or c. While to the general public who wish to define things in neat little packages might say that this disqualifies said person from said religion; when it comes to associations this person will feel more at home in this religion than in any other. Following a particular religion 90% of the way should be acknowledged as such, whether or not the 10% involves the qualifying factors of the religion.

Originally Posted by Louisvillian

Here's the thing, though. Unlike Wicca, Christianity is a religion defined by orthodoxy. If you stray enough out of that orthodoxy, then it simply is not Christianity anymore. Especially if one were to toss out one of Christianity's basic tenets, i.e. monotheism.

Well, I've certainly seen (and been a part of some) arguments over whether 90% is enough to consider someone a "true Wiccan." My opinion has generally been that I wouldn't necessarily say that what the person is practicing isn't authentic Wicca although it isn't traditional Gardnerian Wicca. I suppose the same is true for Christianity. They have certainly been arguing over issues of orthodoxy for a couple of thousand years and I doubt the arguing will end any time soon.

Christianity, perhaps Catholicism more than any denomination, is a herd mentality. People who have questions are often hushed. Which is one thing I admire about the Jewish faith. Those people love to ask questions and ponder mysteries. And although they are a much older religion than Christianity, they don't seem to have diverged into as many different sub-sets as Christianity, perhaps because they are able to discuss and debate rather than leaving one group because they question some of that groups beliefs.

Originally Posted by Nachtigall

Which raises another question. How do Christian Wiccans reconcile the concepts of the original sin and the need for salvation with Wiccan theology? Do they believe that we are all born sinners because of Eve?

Well, that takes things in a different direction eh? That was another belief that I questioned growing up in the Christian church. Why should I be held accountable for what someone else did thousands of years ago? Was that a test that was doomed to failure - you can eat everything on the dining room table except for the marshmallow - so of course all you can think about is what the marshmallow might taste like. Didn't god understand basic human nature any better than that? After all, he is credited with creating human beings.

The concept of personal responsibility is certainly one of the things I found in Wicca that most agreed with my own internal beliefs. I'm not responsible for what Eve did in the Garden of Eden, but I can't blame Satan for any bad choices I make in my own life either.

[Tiberias]

Well, I've certainly seen (and been a part of some) arguments over whether 90% is enough to consider someone a "true Wiccan." My opinion has generally been that I wouldn't necessarily say that what the person is practicing isn't authentic Wicca although it isn't traditional Gardnerian Wicca. I suppose the same is true for Christianity. They have certainly been arguing over issues of orthodoxy for a couple of thousand years and I doubt the arguing will end any time soon.

Right, but again, Wicca isn't Christianity, and they can't be equated in this way. They come from very, very different mindsets.

Christianity, perhaps Catholicism more than any denomination, is a herd mentality. People who have questions are often hushed. Which is one thing I admire about the Jewish faith. Those people love to ask questions and ponder mysteries. And although they are a much older religion than Christianity, they don't seem to have diverged into as many different sub-sets as Christianity, perhaps because they are able to discuss and debate rather than leaving one group because they question some of that groups beliefs.

You must have had some very unfortunate experience with Catholicism. When I look at the Roman Church, I see 1,700 years of questioning and exploration. Bacon, Llull, Aquinas, Augustine, Duns Scotus, Albertus Magnus, Anselm, Alcuin and Abelard. Hardly unquestioning drones. It's especially ironic given that the current Pope is perhaps the most theologically-minded, scholastic Pope in recent memory.

Judaism has not formed as many sects as Christianity because there is no notion of apostolic succession and far fewer people involved, hence less hierarchy. I don't think it's a matter of allowing debate (which many Christian sects, including proper Catholicism, do anyway).

Which raises another question. How do Christian Wiccans reconcile the concepts of the original sin and the need for salvation with Wiccan theology? Do they believe that we are all born sinners because of Eve?

That's a very good question.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Lunacie

Well, I've certainly seen (and been a part of some) arguments over whether 90% is enough to consider someone a "true Wiccan."

Well, this is where it would be real nice if religious tolerance would set in. Why does a person who's only 90% Wiccan feel the need to be considered a "True Wiccan"? Unless of course, the "True Wiccans" are not very accepting of someone who has minor differences from them.

I thought this mostly applied to Christianity. If you miss a few key points (depending upon the denomination), you are definitely not one of them. I really thought that by getting away from that religion, we would see more tolerance for those who mix and match from different sources. But I guess Paganism still has it's share of religious purists.

What's wrong with acknowledging the fact that 70% of my religious orientation is still Christian? For the most part, I still act, talk, and look like a Christian to most people. If I'm not a Christian, then what the hell am I? Oh, I know, I'm 70% Christian...

People who left Christianity years ago still find vestiges of the old religion permeating their lifestyle and way of thinking. The correctly identify it as Christian, and deal with it accordingly. Many have said that Satanism is a Christian denomination, because they recognize most of the mentality and practice does not originate from any pagan religion, but from Christianity. If we can so readily recognize Christianity in so many places, how come we cannot be happy to accept that somebody's path is 50% Christian?

You can't strip a person from their religion simply because they don't follow a few key qualifying points. Christians do this all the time, and send people out the door because they don't fit in. They might be a homosexual, or simply cannot agree with all the doctrinal points. What then are these people to do? Do they then simply have to abandon all the rest of their faith, and find a suitable replacement religion, starting all over again at square one with their spiritual journey?

I know this has happened to many people here on this board. And I can only imagine the pain and spiritual anguish this kind of transformation can produce.

Some of us though, have chosen to let go of Christianity slowly, replacing the misguided concepts with "something better" whenever we find them. Parts of Christianity will probably stand the test of time, and will never have to be replaced. This wasn't the path I ever chose for myself. My God that I developed a relationship with in Christianity turns out to be several different Gods. oopps! But They chose to work with me in Christianity until the time was right, and actually, continue to do so. Why should I abandon what my Gods have taught me, simply to satisfy people who like to see people sorted in their neat little religious boxes?

[Tiberias]

I don't think anybody's saying you should abandon your beliefs. We're saying your beliefs are no longer definable as Christianity. Christian-influenced, sure. But polytheism and Christianity just don't go together. As I've said elsewhere, I can call myself the Emperor of the Moon - that doesn't make it so, and I wouldn't expect everybody around me to agree with that label, making it kinda meaningless.

[Louisvillian]

Quite. I never said anyone should cease believing and practising whatever it is they believe and practise.
I just want people to label it properly. It's not just semantics; proper usage of accepted definitions is the cornerstone of language itself.

[Tobias]

Nice to know that I have your permission to continue on.


So, just curious, how many pagan religions also have this same kind of exclusionary conditions? Druids I'm pretty sure would fall under this, as there is no way for modern day ones to be initiated the same way as the ones before (whatever those conditions were, we don't even know.)

What about Celts? Did you have to belong to the tribe, live in the region, drink from the sacred spring, etc? Or the Asatru, don't you have to be born in their lineage to be a *real* one? Didn't the Egyptians shave every inch of their bodies -- do you have to shave all your hair off to be a *real* worshiper of their gods?

The fact is, many of us take liberties with our beliefs and our practices. I'd like to think that is a positive thing, that we feel free enough to discard elements of our religion that do not ring true with us, or simply don't fit into our lifestyle in this century/millennium.

Age old exclusionary factors will never change for the fundamentalists, but for those of us that are a little more liberal we'd still like to identify with the religion that we pattern our lives after. It sure does simplify things when you can enter a conversation and simply say, "I'm a ________" without having to explain things like everyone you talk to is an extreme conservative. I'm not talking about being dishonest, just simply expecting people to understand that in our day people rarely follow anything in it's traditionally pure form.

[perceval23]

Right, but again, Wicca isn't Christianity, and they can't be equated in this way. They come from very, very different mindsets.

Do they really, though? Both are built around Nature and her cycles. What many Neo-Pagans call Christianity lifting holiday customs from Pagans was actually just cases of various customs done in various places at times that were when a Christian festival took place continuing, and becoming, eventually, associated with the Christian festivals. The Celts were a bit of an exception, but Christianity's development with them was uniquely Celtic, which we'll be getting into in a bit.

Look at the theology of George MacDonald, mentor to Lewis Carroll, and the biggest influence on J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. Lewis said he never wrote a book that didn't quote MacDonald in some way. I'd go so far as to say MacDonald influenced Wicca. Take a look at some things he wrote...

http://www.macdonaldphillips.com/fromtheheart.html

For example...

IT IS THE TEMPLE OF NATURE and not the temple of the church, the things made by the hands of God and not the things made by the hands of men, that afford the truest of symbols of truth.
ALL NATURE SPEAKS, like the flower, messages from God, the Father of the universe.
EVERYWHERE IS GOD. The earth underneath us is his hand upholding us; the waters are in the hollow of it. Every spring-fountain of gladness about us is his making and his delight. He tends us and cares for us; he is close to us, breathing into our nostrils the breath of life, and breathing into our spirit thoughts that make us look up and recognize the love and care around us.
SEE THE FREEDOM OF GOD in his sunsets-never a second like one which is passed! See the freedom in his moons and skies, in the ever-changing solid earth!- all moving by no dead law, but in the harmony of the vital law of liberty.
EVERYTHING BEAUTIFUL is but a bit of love frozen.
EVERY FACT IN NATURE is a revelation of God.
ALL LOVELY SIGHTS tend to keep the soul pure, to lift the heart up to God.
THE MAN WHO, in harmony with nature, attempts the discovery of more of her meanings, is just searching out the things of God.

The Celtic Otherworld/Fairy was a major part of these Christian writers' system.

Here's the thing, though. Unlike Wicca, Christianity is a religion defined by orthodoxy. If you stray enough out of that orthodoxy, then it simply is not Christianity anymore. Especially if one were to toss out one of Christianity's basic tenets, i.e. monotheism.

What is "Orthodoxy" to a Catholic is different than what it is for a Baptist, which is different than what it is for a Mormon, and so on. The Methodist edition of the Bible, for example, teaches the Creation Myth as just that, a Myth. Methodists aren't to take it literally, but look for the higher truth the Myth represents.

Many Wiccans don't take their identities for their Gods and Goddesses literally. Most Christians just use the generic "God" as a simple term for the Divine, rather than the Jewish Yahweh. How many Christians do you see using the name "Yahweh"? While Christianity came from the Jewish religion, it isn't Jewish, and hasn't been since it stepped outside of it. Many Christians don't think of God as literally male, as in literally with a penis, though God can manifest as male. Many Christians view the various Gods and Goddesses of the world as simply aspects and personas of God as perceived by different peoples. A Nature Goddess, for example, would just be a persona of God as manifest through Nature. Note that most Christians refer to Nature as "she." They don't worry about semantics.

The Celts had no problem just adding Christianity to what they already had. This is reflected in the Myth of Brigid being the Midwife at Jesus's birth, placing three drops of water on the newborn's forehead to confer wisdom, and the baby's protector from Herod; as well as the Holy Grail being protected in the Fairyland of Avalon by the Nine Sisters.

Christian Alchemists had, as the climax of the Great Work, the union of Red King and White Queen, the Sacred Marriage of Sun and Moon. I can't overstress the debt the modern Craft owes to those Christian Alchemists. Alchemy was also a huge influence on the works of MacDonald, Carroll, Tolkien, and Lewis.

C. S. Lewis believed that Christ's purpose wasn't to replace the Old Religions, but to fufill them. That's why he could have Bachhus in Narnia. Unfortunately, both the BBC and Walden cut Bacchus from their film adaptations, but here's an overview for those who haven't read the books...

http://stefanie-bean.livejournal.com/124313.html

As with all things in Christianity (and Wicca, for that matter), it comes down to the individual, what works for that person. Personally, I find Christ a much more fufilling Sun God/White Stag symbol than Murray's Horned God. Christ is the only Stag figure, to my knowledge, that historically also represents the Sun. And, we have Christ's teachings, showing us how to live our lives.

I realize a lot of Christians and Wiccans are dogmatic, but I think that's a mistake, "getting lost in the metaphor" as Joseph Campbell put it. What's important, I think, is the higher meaning of these symbols and practices, what they represent, how they are a part of how we live our lives.